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Posted: 10/24/2020 11:28:19 PM EDT
[#1]
I think it's a solution in search of a problem.
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Posted: 10/24/2020 11:45:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it's a solution in search of a problem. Yeah, basically this. I’m trying a set, got them on sale. They’re non magnetic, won’t rust and seem great for all the lower receiver springs. I’m staying with Mil-Spec for everything else. |
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Posted: 10/25/2020 8:58:26 AM EDT
[#3]
If you plan on shooting your carbine in a 600 degree environment, they will be worth it.
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Posted: 10/25/2020 10:04:45 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it's a solution in search of a problem. After storing my AR in a car trunk in the winter once rust was a real issue bwuth milspec parts. It's a good reason to swap out steel for titanium, aluminum and polymer...so these rust proof springs actually look pretty cool to me |
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Posted: 10/25/2020 11:27:18 AM EDT
[#5]
I tried 'em.... kind of under impressed.
BUT, If I lived or played around Salt Water... my impressions might be completely different. They are more resistant against corrosion. I installed them in two 15's and haven't seen any degradation in performance Inconel spring wise.... but Mil-Spec Springs are tried and proven. So I don't know what to think. |
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Posted: 10/25/2020 3:50:39 PM EDT
[#6]
17-7 stainless steel is an excellent spring material.
It was developed post-WW2 as a creep-resistant aerospace alloy, and the M16 was the first weapon to my knowledge to make extensive use of it. It's stress-relaxation characteristics are excellent at room temperature. It's ultimate tensile strength is only a little lower than music wire, and music wire's stress relaxation characteristics suck. I've never seen tensile strength data for inconel wire. I would bet that an inconel hammer spring would permanently deform and consequently fail to store as much elastic energy as the standard 17-7 hammer spring. Does anyone have an inconel wire ASTM spec? |
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Posted: 10/25/2020 6:16:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Maybe all you naysayers missed the "Guaranteed for Life" part....
But how many of you keep a spare spring set ? 
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Posted: 10/25/2020 7:26:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Only thing I really care about are the mag catch springs, the trigger spring, and the hammer spring.
Mag catch spring because of my Superlative Arms piston uses one. I tried the FCD 32% extra powered stainless 302 springs and Railscales stainless 302 zinc plated spring, which I assumed lost considerable strength because of the heat/strength ratio only goes up to about 550° before the spring starts losing power. Not sure what spring material is used for stock spring and I can't find it anywhere on the internets. Perhaps it's a solution looking for a problem, but SA owner previously told me the piston kit doesn't even really need a spring, it just helps the piston rod and the carrier from taking more of a beating than necessary. |
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Posted: 10/25/2020 8:33:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Only thing I really care about are the mag catch springs, the trigger spring, and the hammer spring. Mag catch spring because of my Superlative Arms piston uses one. I tried the FCD 32% extra powered stainless 302 springs and Railscales stainless 302 zinc plated spring, which I assumed lost considerable strength because of the heat/strength ratio only goes up to about 550° before the spring starts losing power. Not sure what spring material is used for stock spring and I can't find it anywhere on the internets. Perhaps it's a solution looking for a problem, but SA owner previously told me the piston kit doesn't even really need a spring, it just helps the piston rod and the carrier from taking more of a beating than necessary. Trigger and hammer spring are 17-7 stainless, a precipitation-hardening stainless steel. I have no idea why anyone would think it is a good idea ti replace those springs with 302 stainless, which is worse in every conceivable way. |
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Posted: 10/25/2020 8:44:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trigger and hammer spring are 17-7 stainless, a precipitation-hardening stainless steel. I have no idea why anyone would think it is a good idea ti replace those springs with 302 stainless, which is worse in every conceivable way. I'm pretty sure I was referring to the mag catch springs. . . Not sure what those are made of. |
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Posted: 10/25/2020 8:56:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you plan on shooting your carbine in a 600 degree environment, they will be worth it. Perhaps they are planning to assault a volcano or the planet Venus. |
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Posted: 10/25/2020 11:09:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Has anyone tried the Neverwear inconel 600 spring kit? Quite expensive, but I'm just wondering if anyone has had experience with these. OK I am interested and actually $25 is not that bad... I worked a lot with INCO before retiring and for spring material, it is fantastic in a hot and very corrosive environment, way more than an AR will see, so based on that I understand the 4-Ever name. I am ordering a few sets this week....thanks for the link Bronc |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 12:47:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK I am interested and actually $25 is not that bad... I worked a lot with INCO before retiring and for spring material, it is fantastic in a hot and very corrosive environment, way more than an AR will see, so based on that I understand the 4-Ever name. I am ordering a few sets this week....thanks for the link Bronc Since you have experience, how is it with maintaining strength in various high and low temps, specifically in spring wire? I saw in TOF that someone tested these springs in a salt solution and there was 0% corrosion after about 2 weeks. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 6:02:03 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since you have experience, how is it with maintaining strength in various high and low temps, specifically in spring wire? I saw in TOF that someone tested these springs in a salt solution and there was 0% corrosion after about 2 weeks. We used INCO 600 springs in reciprocating compressor valve services, for moving high pressure hydrogen gas with extreme amounts of chloride (salts) and H2S (hydrogen sulfide). The springs would see extended run times, two to three years of this service at 350 F degrees. I can assure you, AR service is no where near this extreme of conditions. The INCO was used for corrosion resistance and increased durability, maintaining strength. IMO, you use INCO springs, you will never replace springs again....now, here is where I see the rub, the springs in this kit are so over designed, it is almost silly, BUT, the price is actually not bad when you consider the INCO material....We also used INCO 600 studs (I am almost certain it was the 600 series, but it was INCO) in 1350 F service on our Cat Cracker units (makes gasoline) that were very expensive, ie: a 1" diameter x 6" stud was $1500 each and would run at 5 to 6 year intervals. I also spent 35+ years working with INCO 738, some extremely durable material IMO, $25 for this spring kit is very reasonable |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 7:15:52 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm pretty sure I was referring to the mag catch springs. . . Not sure what those are made of. 17-7PH |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 8:12:37 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 17-7PH Excellent corrosion resistance and strength, good to |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 8:54:55 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Excellent corrosion resistance and strength, good to 800 degrees F. For spring wire, 17-7 is only good for up to 600° F. Inconel 600 spring wire is only good up to 700° F. Other applications away from spring wire, Inconel 600 is good up to around 2000°F and 17-7 up to 800°C |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 9:08:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For spring wire, 17-7 is only good for up to 600° F. Inconel 600 spring wire is only good up to 700° F. Other applications away from spring wire, Inconel 600 is good up to around 2000°F and 17-7 up to 800°C Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Excellent corrosion resistance and strength, good to 800 degrees F. For spring wire, 17-7 is only good for up to 600° F. Inconel 600 spring wire is only good up to 700° F. Other applications away from spring wire, Inconel 600 is good up to around 2000°F and 17-7 up to 800°C You are correct, my bad, in spring material 17-7 ph tops out at 600 degrees F. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 9:11:16 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are correct, my bad, in spring material 17-7 ph tops out at 600 degrees F. Well, keeping spring tension that is. It's weird how Inconcel 600 can keep tensile strength up to 2000F but only spring tension up to 700F. I'm not a metallurgist though. Not sure about the science behind it. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 9:23:13 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, keeping spring tension that is. It's weird how Inconcel 600 can keep tensile strength up to 2000F but only spring tension up to 700F. I'm not a metallurgist though. Not sure about the science behind it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are correct, my bad, in spring material 17-7 ph tops out at 600 degrees F. Well, keeping spring tension that is. It's weird how Inconcel 600 can keep tensile strength up to 2000F but only spring tension up to 700F. I'm not a metallurgist though. Not sure about the science behind it. My guess would be heat treat issues and I'm sure wire diameter is also a factor. But far from expert. I'd be curious on a typical round count on these before failure. Seems to be commonplace in high heat/corrosive environments across oil/petrochem industry, especially in high value processes. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 9:55:04 AM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 10/26/2020 10:00:53 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryBetting we see a market flood of these. Google search shows a handful of vendors carrying them. No money in limited runs. 
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Posted: 10/26/2020 10:01:15 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryI could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is Neverwear's product. PSA has been known to buy a buy of other company's product and then slap their brand to it. Not sure if it's licensing or just bulk buying. However, they do it specifically with SB Tactical braces. Not that it's bad. Again, I could be wrong. Quoted: Betting we see a market flood of these. Perhaps. If it's better, then it will attract people like myself who buy inconcel gas tubes  . It has been around for a good minute apparently. Other websites have been carrying them for a bit.$4k Inconel barrel incoming lol |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 10:22:24 AM EDT
[#24]
Have not broken a spring - lost a few small ones years ago though.
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Posted: 10/26/2020 10:22:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Just posted it for price and they are site sponsor.
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Posted: 10/26/2020 10:24:50 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just posted it for price and they are site sponsor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Just posted it for price and they are site sponsor. Their price is 5ish cheaper than everyone else and not $20 for shipping. Quoted: Have not broken a spring - lost a few small ones years ago though. I keep a set of n52 magnets around me when I'm working so that I can get them easily. Even the ones that sometimes.go flying |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 10:43:25 AM EDT
[#27]
ASTM B166 is the document that governs Inconel 600 wire minimum tensile strength. The minimum tensile strength for wire sizes smaller than .057" is a mere 185,000psi. No maximum is listed.
The minimum tensile strength for .045" 17-7 wire (hammer spring material) is 310,000psi. The minimum tesile strength for the ejector spring material per the print, which is music wire with a tensile strength coming in at the extreme upper values, is 376,000psi. This is also a scragged spring, so its apparent stress level at solid is even higher than this. Some very, very smart and competent people carefully selected the materials for the AR15 spring. It's never a good idea to haphazardly substitute one material for another. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 11:22:23 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ASTM B166 is the document that governs Inconel 600 wire minimum tensile strength. The minimum tensile strength for wire sizes smaller than .057" is a mere 185,000psi. No maximum is listed. The minimum tensile strength for .045" 17-7 wire (hammer spring material) is 310,000psi. The minimum tesile strength for the ejector spring material per the print, which is music wire with a tensile strength coming in at the extreme upper values, is 376,000psi. This is also a scragged spring, so its apparent stress level at solid is even higher than this. Some very, very smart and competent people carefully selected the materials for the AR15 spring. It's never a good idea to haphazardly substitute one material for another. Puts things in perspective.
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Posted: 10/26/2020 11:39:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Puts things in perspective. There are a few factors for springs. Tensile strength is the resistance to it breaking down from stress, where compression strength is different, as is toughness and corrosion resistance. Toughness is the key to spring tensile strength. So you can have 500k psi tensile strength but a shitty toughness, so therefore the tensile strength isn't always a deciding factor. Fatigue strength, hardness, and elasticity are other factors to consider. You can always wind springs lighter or heavier to achieve different results, which is common for hammer or trigger springs. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 11:55:55 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are a few factors for springs. Tensile strength is the resistance to it breaking down from stress, where compression strength is different, as is toughness and corrosion resistance. Toughness is the key to spring tensile strength. So you can have 500k psi tensile strength but a shitty toughness, so therefore the tensile strength isn't always a deciding factor. Fatigue strength, hardness, and elasticity are other factors to consider. You can always wind springs lighter or heavier to achieve different results, which is common for hammer or trigger springs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Puts things in perspective. There are a few factors for springs. Tensile strength is the resistance to it breaking down from stress, where compression strength is different, as is toughness and corrosion resistance. Toughness is the key to spring tensile strength. So you can have 500k psi tensile strength but a shitty toughness, so therefore the tensile strength isn't always a deciding factor. Fatigue strength, hardness, and elasticity are other factors to consider. You can always wind springs lighter or heavier to achieve different results, which is common for hammer or trigger springs. Your grasp of the minutiae of spring design and performance is tenuous, at best. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 12:55:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are a few factors for springs. Tensile strength is the resistance to it breaking down from stress, where compression strength is different, as is toughness and corrosion resistance. Toughness is the key to spring tensile strength. So you can have 500k psi tensile strength but a shitty toughness, so therefore the tensile strength isn't always a deciding factor. Fatigue strength, hardness, and elasticity are other factors to consider. You can always wind springs lighter or heavier to achieve different results, which is common for hammer or trigger springs. Compressive strength and tensile strength are 2 different animals when discussing springs. "Toughness" is not a term that I've encountered. Tensile strength being a spring's resistance to breaking due to stress. Compressive strength would be the spring’s resistance to being compressed. Many variables when dealing with wire springs, I won't pretend to know all of the intricacies. These Inconel sets may be the cats ass, who knows? Time will tell. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 6:08:32 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your grasp of the minutiae of spring design and performance is tenuous, at best. Accurate. Any ideas on Inconel x750? |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 6:17:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Accurate. Any ideas on Inconel x750? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your grasp of the minutiae of spring design and performance is tenuous, at best. Accurate. Any ideas on Inconel x750? The maximum ultimate tensile strength of the smallest sizes of all grades of inconel wire seem to top out at only 230,000psi, so they are all quite puny compared to their ferrous counterparts. Iron is the master of them all. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 6:25:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The maximum ultimate tensile strength of the smallest sizes of all grades of inconel wire seem to top out at only 230,000psi, so they are all quite puny compared to their ferrous counterparts. Iron is the master of them all. Then while it is definitely niche and gucci, it leaves one to wonder how long these springs would last. Being that some springs are made of 17-7/17-4/music wire, it leaves me to wonder. There's another companies marketing ejector and extractor springs in Inconel x750. I'm much more skeptical of those two springs and a hammer spring myself, but I'm not too worried about some of the other springs that don't take as much of a beating or use. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 6:36:25 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then while it is definitely niche and gucci, it leaves one to wonder how long these springs would last. Being that some springs are made of 17-7/17-4/music wire, it leaves me to wonder. There's another companies marketing ejector and extractor springs in Inconel x750. I'm much more skeptical of those two springs and a hammer spring myself, but I'm not too worried about some of the other springs that don't take as much of a beating or use. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The maximum ultimate tensile strength of the smallest sizes of all grades of inconel wire seem to top out at only 230,000psi, so they are all quite puny compared to their ferrous counterparts. Iron is the master of them all. Then while it is definitely niche and gucci, it leaves one to wonder how long these springs would last. Being that some springs are made of 17-7/17-4/music wire, it leaves me to wonder. There's another companies marketing ejector and extractor springs in Inconel x750. I'm much more skeptical of those two springs and a hammer spring myself, but I'm not too worried about some of the other springs that don't take as much of a beating or use. It depends on what you mean by "last." The more highly-stressed springs (hammer, extractor, ejector) would probably just take a set, permanently deforming the first time. So your hammer would be whacking the firing pin more gently, your extractor spring would be weaker, your brass would not eject properly. I don't think they are going to blow apart after 10 shots, but there is certainly a reason why some very scientifical fellows decided the forces on various mechanical components should be what they are, and replacing 17-7 and music wire springs with a dramitically weaker material will certainly screw something up. 17-4 sucks, too, by the way. |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 11:23:06 PM EDT
[#36]
This is the first I've heard of these. In my opinion it's pure gimmickry.
Inconel 600 is intended for use in strongly corrosive conditions. Conditions such as petrochemical cracking towers operating at 700°C; or boiling sodium hydroxide; or produced water with dissolved acid gases and chloride content in excess of 50,000 ppm. The thing is, any of these conditions would destroy the aluminum and steel parts within days. After a year's exposure you would have nice, shiny springs sitting in a pile of rust and alumina. However, as a fully austenitic alloy Inconel 600 will not have great mechanical properties, which are the critical numbers that drive a springs performance. Yes, with lots of cold work you can make a reasonable spring out of it, but it will never be the equal of a ferrous alloy. So you are gaining a whole bunch of corrosion resistance that is completely unusable, and sacrificing some potentially important functional properties to get it. Not for me. A PH grade stainless sounds like the perfect choice for the application. |
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