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Posted: 7/4/2023 7:49:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: BlackdogADV]
I’m not happy. 6” groups at 35 yards. CMMG barrel, RTB bolt, Primary Arms 1-6 LPVO. My Ruger 22/45 Tactical with a red dot got 4” groups at the same distance. First thing I’ll try is a different optic. CCI mini mags were reliable, bulk Federal not so much. What kind of Accuracy are you getting? Also, I’m using the RTB mag, I think it’s a 25 rounder. I need a shorter mag for shooting off the bench, what would you suggest?
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Posted: 7/4/2023 8:34:46 PM EST
[#1]
Originally Posted By BlackdogADV: I’m not happy. 6” groups at 35 yards. CMMG barrel, RTB bolt, Primary Arms 1-6 LPVO. My Ruger 22/45 Tactical with a red dot got 4” groups at the same distance. First thing I’ll try is a different optic. CCI mini mags were reliable, bulk Federal not so much. What kind of Accuracy are you getting? Also, I’m using the RTB mag, I think it’s a 25 rounder. I need a shorter mag for shooting off the bench, what would you suggest? Yeah - 6" groups is disappointing. Do you think there is an issue with your optic? I don't really think of CMMG as a precision barrel, but what do I know? Maybe there is something else going on? I have an AR 22LR with a RTB barrel (which I think is just a rebranded CMMG), and I can get a better group than that at 100 yards. For my precision 22LR, I found huge grouping variations with the ammo I tried. The best turned out to be the cheapest. CCI standard velocity 40 gr lead nose. 1+" group at 100 yards and I can hit steel at 300 yards with a lot of elevation dialed in. Some of the other ammo was 3" groups, so ammo does make a difference. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2023 9:32:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: VASCAR2]
[#2]
I have seen several 22 LR barrels shoot patterns and not groups when new. The more I shot these barrels the accuracy improved. I first experienced this on a custom 22 LR AR-15 upper I had built years ago. This barrel produces good consistent accuracy once it seasoned or wore in.
I bought an Advantage Arms 22 LR conversion kit with a stainless steel barrel. The accuracy when new was disappointing. The more I have shot this barrel the better it shoots, My last AR-15 22 LR upper I bought from Right to Bear had poor accuracy when new but has continually improved with use. I wouldn’t give up on the barrel until you have shot it a few hundred rounds. If you notice the accuracy improving you might be surprised how well it shoots after a thousand rounds. I wouldn’t clean the barrel unless it is obviously leaded up. I usually break in my rimfire barrels with plated ammo. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2023 11:02:18 PM EST
[#3]
Improperly tightened barrel nut?
RCA |
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Posted: 7/4/2023 11:23:53 PM EST
[#4]
My cheap 10.5" PSA upper shoots sub-1" at 25 yards. I know that info doesn't really do you any good.
 Shooting a group with my new Sightmark Wraith 4K Mini on a suppressed .22LR SBR |
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Posted: 7/5/2023 12:42:06 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Johnnymenudo: Yeah - 6" groups is disappointing. Do you think there is an issue with your optic? I don't really think of CMMG as a precision barrel, but what do I know? Maybe there is something else going on? I have an AR 22LR with a RTB barrel (which I think is just a rebranded CMMG), and I can get a better group than that at 100 yards. For my precision 22LR, I found huge grouping variations with the ammo I tried. The best turned out to be the cheapest. CCI standard velocity 40 gr lead nose. 1+" group at 100 yards and I can hit steel at 300 yards with a lot of elevation dialed in. Some of the other ammo was 3" groups, so ammo does make a difference. I just installed the optic but I have others laving around I can try. I might check that barrel nut also. I have CCI Standad Velocity and a couple boxes of target I can try also. I wasn’t expecting match performance, 2” at 50 yards would’ve been fine. The Federal bulk is garbage, lots of jams with the AR but the Ruger could tolerate it. I have a couple of AR-15s and an AR-10 that shoot better than 1MOA, nothing in .22 that can do it though. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/5/2023 6:23:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: zukiphile]
[#6]
Originally Posted By BlackdogADV: CMMG barrel, RTB bolt, Primary Arms 1-6 LPVO. Which one? I recently tried a 17" medium contour barrel that was making four inch groups at 50 yards with some ammunition. I tried a dozen different types too. I returned it as defective. You and I are only two data points, but I'll note that CMMG had a bad batch of 9.2 inch barrels a year or two ago. I have an A2 20", 16.1" heavy contour, and M4 profile barrel, all older barrels. They all hate federal, but will shoot an inch at 50 yards with the ammunition each prefers. However, finding the round that would do that with each barrel took some testing. Aguila SV has done some great things those barrels. I'm not a CCI standard velocity cultist, but a lot of people get good groups with it. I won't tell you that a high velocity load can't be accurate, but I'd try something in standard velocity. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2023 6:51:24 AM EST
[#7]
The LVPO might be a large part of the problem. It’s parallax is probably set to be parallax free at 100 yards. Try the head wobble test and see how much the point of aim changes at 35 yards. Or try a scope that has adjustable parallax and set it to 35 yards.
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Posted: 7/5/2023 7:47:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: chumpmiester]
[#8]
Parallax on a LPVO might be an issue but one should still see decent groups at 50 yards with a dedicated 22lr upper. My CMMG 16" heavy barrel will shoot groups 1" or less at 50 yards with a LPVO and my rebuilt Chiappa upper will shoot 1 1/2" groups or less at 50 yards with a LPVO. All of that depends on the ammo I use. The only thing left on the Chiappa barrel that is original is the bolt and barrel, everything else has been changed out. I am using a Swampfox Optics Tomahawk 1-4 LPVO with MOA reticle on both rifles.
There is no way I would accept any dedicated 22lr setup that didn't shoot under 2" at 25 or 35 yards. Heck the M261 conversion kit in the M16A2 with its 1-7 twist can shoot 2-3 inches at those ranges. @BlackdogADV, how are you shooting the rifle as far as a rest goes? Are you shooting it unsupported, with a bipod, with a front rest only, or with a front rest and rear bag? |
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Posted: 7/5/2023 10:43:20 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zukiphile: Which one? I recently tried a 17" medium contour barrel that was making four inch groups at 50 yards with some ammunition. I tried a dozen different types too. I returned it as defective. You and I are only two data points, but I'll note that CMMG had a bad batch of 9.2 inch barrels a year or two ago. I have an A2 20", 16.1" heavy contour, and M4 profile barrel, all older barrels. They all hate federal, but will shoot an inch at 50 yards with the ammunition each prefers. However, finding the round that would do that with each barrel took some testing. Aguila SV has done some great things those barrels. I'm not a CCI standard velocity cultist, but a lot of people get good groups with it. I won't tell you that a high velocity load can't be accurate, but I'd try something in standard velocity. I was shooting off my tailgate during my testing. Next time will be off a bench with a wide variety of ammo and a couple of optics. I use Krieger barrels on my precision rifles if only I could get them to make one for my .22 AR. It’s a long expensive process troubleshooting a problem barrel. Did CMMG have any issues taking the barrel back?  Attached File Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 7/5/2023 12:25:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: zukiphile]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV:Did CMMG have any issues taking the barrel back? Optics Planet was the retailer. The return went through. I hate the M4 profile on principle; it's a profile by committee with each contribution or revision making it worse. There is no good reason a CMMG M4 profile should shoot better. The 17" medium contour has more weight where it is needed and no weird steps to introduce any odd whipping or waves. It should be a good barrel, but mine was a tragedy. EDIT - I like CMMG as a company; they back their product with customer service that excels. |
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Posted: 7/6/2023 8:15:53 AM EST
[#11]
I would expect the mini-mags to give you at least a 3-4 moa group if not a bit better...
Cheap bulk stuff (Fed 550 etc) I wouldn't expect much from at all. Best cost-to-results probably wtih CCI SV or one of the less expensive Lapua or Ely offerings |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2023 9:42:12 AM EST
[#12]
I’ve had a little experience with BCA barrels. Love the side charging units. Lubed up with Black Dog mags they function flawlessly. I lube with a light coating of Mobile 1 synthetic grease on the bolt. Got tired of waiting for the barrels to settle down and group. (Ammo is expensive, you know). Oiled up a tight fitting patch and impregnated it with 320(?) grit lapping compound. 40 strokes. Followed by 40 strokes with 600 grit. Shrunk my groups from 3”-4” at 50 to 1-1/2” - 2” !!!
This worked with a nitrided 16” 22 LR bbl and with a 16” nitrided 22 WMR bbl. Give it a try. You might be happy. |
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Posted: 7/6/2023 2:31:15 PM EST
[#13]
I went out this morning and tried 2 different types of ammo and 2 different optics. 10 shot groups at 50 yards from a bench.
CCI standard velocity : Primary Arms 1-6. 4 3/4” Nikon fixed 3. 4” CCI Mini Mags. Primary Arms 1-6. 5 3/4” Nikon fixed 3. 3 3/4” I bought the CMMG barrel through Optics Planet. I’ll get started on returning it. |
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Posted: 7/6/2023 3:47:34 PM EST
[#14]
Optic Planet won’t let me return it. I bought it in October 2022. Have any of you used a BoreBuddy barrel?
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USA
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Posted: 7/6/2023 5:13:56 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV: Have any of you used a BoreBuddy barrel? Guilty. I have a 12.1 inch. Barrel. |
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Posted: 7/6/2023 5:25:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: MemeWarfare]
[#16]
If you want an accurate AR22 get one of the following barrels:
Beyers Lothar-Walther Keystone JP |
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USA
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Posted: 7/6/2023 5:55:56 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MemeWarfare: If you want an accurate AR22 get one of the following barrels: Beyers Lothar-Walther Keystone JP I've never heard anything about Beyer other than people thrilled with the accuracy of their barrels. I believe they are a stainless sleeve in an aluminum barrel. LW barrels are great, but not catalogued by LW since CMMG performed their secret barrel collar lengthening. When I tell people how accurate my 16.5" LW barrel is, I understand if they think I'm exaggerating. Keystone says his barrels are 416 stainless, not 416R, but 416. Will they be unduly susceptible to cleaning damage? I'd bet JPE barrels and bolts are great, but they aren't part of the CMMG/Ceiner bolt pattern family of barrels. |
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Posted: 7/6/2023 7:08:42 PM EST
[#18]
Beyer barrel is $250. This is turning into an expensive rabbit hole.
If I were to do it again I’d just buy a compete rifle from Tippmann arms. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/6/2023 8:02:26 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV: Beyer barrel is $250. This is turning into an expensive rabbit hole. If I were to do it again I’d just buy a compete rifle from Tippmann arms. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV: Beyer barrel is $250. This is turning into an expensive rabbit hole. If I were to do it again I’d just buy a compete rifle from Tippmann arms. Originally Posted By BlackdogADV: Optic Planet won’t let me return it. I bought it in October 2022. Contact CMMG. They have generous CS. I wonder whether the 17" had a bad run, or if CMMG is having QC problems more generally like so many other manufacturers are. |
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Posted: 7/6/2023 8:02:58 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zukiphile: Keystone says his barrels are 416 stainless, not 416R, but 416. Will they be unduly susceptible to cleaning damage? Stop navel gazing about things that don't matter. Take all the parts and send them to John at Keystone. Here are the results with my 20" Service Rifle trainer at 50 yards.  |
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USA
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Posted: 7/6/2023 8:10:06 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bpm990d: Stop navel gazing about things that don't matter. Take all the parts and send them to John at Keystone. The material from which Keystone makes barrels doesn't matter? As persuasive as your OK group with 40 cent ammunition is, the fellow did just complain about the expense of this rabbit hole. The Keystone Accuracy barrel is $479. |
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Posted: 7/6/2023 9:15:59 PM EST
[#22]
22LR is a low pressure round, there is no need for 416R. If he wants a Krieger, John will be happy to put one on for him.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/7/2023 7:12:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: Erik72]
[#23]
Unless you specify a barrel manufacturer, John at Keystone will start with a Green Mountain barrel. I wasn't even aware there was a difference between 416 SS and 416R SS. I'll have to research that a little.
I can't believe OP won't authorize a return. Oct '22 was only 9 months ago. It's clear something isn't right. Maybe reaching out to CMMG directly is the best course of action. |
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Posted: 7/7/2023 8:50:17 AM EST
[#24]
I contacted CMMG and this is the reply:
Due to the number of variables involved, CMMG does not guarantee a specific accuracy on any of our barrels or firearms. We test each caliber in a number of different setups and scenarios to get a good idea of what they are capable of, but we do not have a set or exact number to provide for accuracy expectations, unfortunately. Accuracy is very dependent on ammunition choice and environmental factors. Can I please get a few pictures of your groupings? What happens to your groupings when you use a match grade/ hunting grade selection of ammunition? |
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Posted: 7/7/2023 8:59:54 AM EST
[#25]
Krieger can make one. $380 I think.
We can make a rimfire blank down to a #2 contour is SS, or a #0 contour in CM. Current lead time is running about 12 months from the time an order is placed. Thank you, Krieger Barrels, Inc. 2024 Mayfield Road Richfield, WI 53076 262-628-8558 |
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USA
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Posted: 7/7/2023 12:50:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: zukiphile]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV: Can I please get a few pictures of your groupings? What happens to your groupings when you use a match grade/ hunting grade selection of ammunition? That reply may not be encouraging, but it isn't a flat out "no". Asking how premium ammunition shoots in it may seem like a dodge, but a great group with great ammunition might indicate that the barrel is fine and you just haven't found the ammunition it shoots well. I don't believe that will happen here. I just tested a CMMG M4 profile barrel. The ammunition that did an inch at 50 yards includes RWS Subsonic (this isn't a good performer in my other barrels), Aguila SV and Remington Thunderbolt. Other ammunition that did poorly included both expensive and cheap stuff. Fed AutoMatch (which is great in my LW barrels) and Armscor 40gr were four inches. Eley Contact 42gr was two inches RWS Rifle Match was two inches. Aguila 38gr CPHP was three inches. Norma Eco 24gr was only 1.5 inches, better than it does in my better barrels. Just to revisit themes raised earlier - I too have had barrels improve with use, but that progression is usually from OK groups, an inch or inch an and a half at 50, to something really good. I've never had a barrel go from five inches to one inch. I hope you find a solution that doesn't sour you on the idea. |
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Posted: 7/7/2023 1:23:10 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zukiphile: That reply may not be encouraging, but it isn't a flat out "no". Asking how premium ammunition shoots in it may seem like a dodge, but a great group with great ammunition might indicate that the barrel is fine and you just haven't found the ammunition it shoots well. I don't believe that will happen here. I’m all packed and ready for a range trip. This is what I’ll be shooting. I might have some Auto Match around also. I’ll post the results here. If I can’t get this resolved I’ll post it on EE. If I have time I’ll bring my 10/22 with me for a fun comparison.  Attached File |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 7/7/2023 2:34:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: kingoftheriver]
[#28]
Hope you've checked the barrel nut.
Don't know if it applies to AR22, but an improperly torqued barrel nut (not tight enough) will have an outsize effect on accuracy, similar to what you are reporting. BTW, I have 2 CMMG M4 profile uppers. One is a flat top w/red dot setup. Other is flat top with carry handle setup complete with anti-bounce weight and auto sear trip that I run on my Colt M16A1 lower. Both exhibit relatively good accuracy, at least certainly better than your report. RCA |
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Posted: 7/7/2023 3:26:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: MemeWarfare]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV: Beyer barrel is $250. This is turning into an expensive rabbit hole. If I were to do it again I’d just buy a compete rifle from Tippmann arms. I built an AR22 with a Beyers barrel. It shoots right at 1moa. A friend I shoot high-power with built one just like mine and his also shoots right at 1moa. $250 for a 1moa barrel is a bargain. I realize you mean the project as a whole, but once you get your rimfire AR shooting reliably and accurately you’re going to enjoy it forever. |
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Posted: 7/7/2023 11:24:08 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryFrom CMMG: Can I please get a few pictures of your groupings? What happens to your groupings when you use a match grade/ hunting grade selection of ammunition? Per CMMGs request I shot Elet Target, CCI Standard Velocity and CCI Mini Mags. 50 yards from a bench. 6X scope. Here’s the results.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 7/8/2023 5:37:29 AM EST
[#31]
CMMG shouldn't need an accuracy guaranty to acknowledge that this barrel is defective.
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Posted: 7/8/2023 11:05:56 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zukiphile: CMMG shouldn't need an accuracy guaranty to acknowledge that this barrel is defective. |
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Posted: 7/8/2023 11:10:13 AM EST
[#33]
Typically the CCI Standard Velocity shoots very well in all my .22s
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Posted: 7/15/2023 9:23:52 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chumpmiester: I agree 100%. It is obvious that barrel is bad. I ended sending it back for them to inspect. Just waiting now. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 9:28:20 PM EST
[#35]
Once again, did you check barrel nut torque?
RCA |
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Posted: 7/15/2023 10:54:10 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kingoftheriver: Once again, did you check barrel nut torque? RCA That was the first thing I checked. |
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Posted: 8/16/2023 4:36:23 PM EST
[#37]
I just found out CMMG found my barrel to be defective. Not sure what the next step is.
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IL, USA
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Posted: 8/16/2023 6:13:28 PM EST
[#38]
Thanks for the update! I’ll be surprised if they don’t send you a new barrel.
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Posted: 8/16/2023 6:26:52 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VASCAR2: Thanks for the update! I’ll be surprised if they don’t send you a new barrel. Sounds like I will get a new barrel, I just hope I have better results as this has taken weeks to resolve. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 10:42:32 AM EST
[#40]
Still waiting on the barrel. Been thinking about just going all out and getting a premium barrel from another manufacturer. I’d really like to get this rifle operational again.
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IL, USA
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Posted: 9/19/2023 4:08:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: VASCAR2]
[#41]
I understand all about waiting. I got some defective Mec-Gar 1911 mags and sent them in. Mec-Gar said the mags were defective but on back order. It’s going on three months and still no mags.
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USA
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Posted: 9/20/2023 1:11:24 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV: I contacted CMMG and this is the reply: Due to the number of variables involved, CMMG does not guarantee a specific accuracy on any of our barrels or firearms. We test each caliber in a number of different setups and scenarios to get a good idea of what they are capable of, but we do not have a set or exact number to provide for accuracy expectations, unfortunately. Accuracy is very dependent on ammunition choice and environmental factors. Can I please get a few pictures of your groupings? What happens to your groupings when you use a match grade/ hunting grade selection of ammunition? Wow, thanks for posting this sir! |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2023 7:07:16 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV: Still waiting on the barrel. Been thinking about just going all out and getting a premium barrel from another manufacturer. I’d really like to get this rifle operational again. I know you didn't want to dump a whole lotta money into this rabbit hole but I can't believe you've waited this long. If all you're lacking is a barrel, I wouldn't wait for CMMG...go find another one and get shooting. Then when CMMG sends you a new barrel, you can build another one. You're gonna want at least two anyway.  |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 7:51:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: Oldgold]
[#44]
Originally Posted By BlackdogADV: I’m not happy. 6” groups at 35 yards. CMMG barrel, RTB bolt, Primary Arms 1-6 LPVO. My Ruger 22/45 Tactical with a red dot got 4” groups at the same distance. First thing I’ll try is a different optic. CCI mini mags were reliable, bulk Federal not so much. What kind of Accuracy are you getting? Also, I’m using the RTB mag, I think it’s a 25 rounder. I need a shorter mag for shooting off the bench, what would you suggest? Try some expensive match ammo after a good scrubbing of your barrel. And tighten all screws on your scope mount. Sounds like scope/mount combo problem. ETA: Didn’t read farther. Glad you got it figured out. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/22/2023 6:24:48 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogADV: Still waiting on the barrel. Been thinking about just going all out and getting a premium barrel from another manufacturer. I’d really like to get this rifle operational again. I read this originally and left it alone. I find it concerning. When I've needed anything from CMMG, Bryan has gotten it to me with blinding speed. His attention is one of the reasons to buy from CMMG. The design of the product isn't perfect in all respects, but the company's urgency in making everything right made up for that. If they've taken this long to replace a defective barrel, I see only two possibilities: 1) there's a shift in customer service, or 2) they can't find a replacement barrel that isn't also defective. |
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Posted: 10/9/2023 10:57:21 AM EST
[#46]
I never got the replacement barrel from CMMG so I ordered a Beyers barrel. I’ll sell the new CMMG when it comes in.
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IL, USA
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Posted: 10/9/2023 2:02:14 PM EST
[#47]
It is frustrating when you get defective products but with production schedules and supply problems this has a trickle down effect on product replacement.
Please let us know how your Beyer barrel shoots. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/9/2023 3:11:46 PM EST
[#48]
I've been following this as I have 2 CMMG M4(ish) profile .22lr barrels.
One on a semi auto rifle, and one I use on my M16 lower. Both shoot better than I can, which admittedly isn't really saying much. CMMG, while not a huge company, is not a small one either. No excuse for not locating a barrel for you in a more timely fashion. RCA |
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Posted: 10/14/2023 6:05:48 PM EST
[#49]
I just got back from the range. This is the results with the new Beyers barrel. This was from a bench using my range bag as a rest. Optic is a 1-6 LPVO. I’m very pleased.
 Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2023 8:36:00 PM EST
[#50]
Thanks for the update! I wouldn’t be surprised to see the accuracy of the Beyer barrel improve with use.
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