Your results sound reasonable for a budget AR, shooting less than decent ammo, with aging eyes. If you’re in the Richmond area, send me a PM and I’ll bring you some match ammo and a couple Noveske/KAC rigs to try out and see the difference.

You don't even have to setup an account.  Drag and drop your photos into the IMGUR page, bookmark it(so you can use it later), copy the share links or right-click+copy image address, paste the link to post and either insert your IMG tags or click on the little picture ICON and paste it in the window that pops up.  It sounds like a chore but it's really pretty simple.

Came here to suggest that bulk ammo you are shooting is the limiting factor.  It is not unusual for a free floated M&P 15 Sport II barrel to shoot close to one MOA.  Usually about 1.5 inches or less at 100 yards with match ammo.  But, with the ammo you are using even free floated and with the Larue trigger 2.5-3 MOA will be the likely result.  That means 2.50-3.0" at 100 yards, about half that with match ammo.

Try some match ammo, if you can find it, something in the 69 grain +/- range, if possible.  You may get very close to one MOA with front rest, rear bag and good technique.

S&W barrels are typically made by their Thompson Center subsidiary and have a good reputation for accuracy for rack grade barrels.

Yep she's  a keeper ! Here is another pic of the same target , after a large elevation change for the second group
Attached File


Sorry about the "worthless" 3 shot group

Plus it has a cheap Tasco scope on it , Swans 18 mount . Id love to upgrade the scope , but I really don't want to turn a single screw on it .

Rocklock,

Port and a Tasco scope?  Sweet Jesus, you should buy a lottery ticket.  I have chased accuracy for a long time and spent countless dollars in the quest and I'm definitely jealous!

I have an older Burris XTR that would be perfect for when you send me that rifle!  Have you run any match 308 through it?

Unfortunately there is no "reasonably priced ammo" anywhere now.

You are correct. Sadly.
The foreign ammo suppliers are charging an arm and a leg. I just don't shoot that crap. I support American companies.

Bradley5050 , I'd love to help you out .... , but those are only three shot group's and everybody knows that means nothing !  

I have not shot "Match" ammo ,  I have shot my own reloads , and they shoot very well .

Honestly the gun is bone stock from Springfield Armory.  I bought it new in 02 . The headspace is deadnuts on nominal,  I don't recall the measurement right now .  

It's within a quarter inch of my Rem. 700 .
Attached File


Sorry to have hijacked this thread ...

Found the problem. Operator error. Imagine that!
A competition shooter watched me and said I was not supporting the butt end of the gun in my shoulder and it was moving around when the trigger was pulled.
Used some bags  under the butt to solidly support it.

I shot a 7/8" group at 50 yards, all touching.

Hope to try at 100 yards on Saturday before the snow gets here.

yes a toe bag ! Its a must have , I like a sand bag .
That way you can just squeeze the bag with your left hand to make fine adjustments up and down .

On a good day you can get the crosshairs to just sit on the bullseye , nuts steady . on those days you can really shoot nice groups .

I am sure with more trigger time you will probably amaze your self .

Also practice snapping in , its good for trigger control . Believe me when I say you will not hurt an AR Type rifle by snapping it .
I put a dot on paper and tape it the the wall inside .
I am looking foward to your next post / progress report .

I have been practicing dry firing across the back yard and it does help with trigger  control.

The gun shot about 2 to 2.5" high at 100 yards, on a 50 yard zero today. Sort of expected that.

Groups were about 3 to 4" and left a lot to be desired.

Actually, when looking at both of the three shot groups, it proves that point. The second group shows the variability of the ammo or technique. If you expand the group out to 5 shots or even multiple 3 shot groups, you’ll likely find that the groups grow to be larger. This is especially true with the xm193 ammo that you initially mentioned.

Some ppl are ok with groups that happened “this one time”, but other people are looking for results that can be achieved “every time”.

Well you are doing good ! You went from 2-3 inch groups at 50 yds to 3-4 at 100 yds in no time .
Keep snapping in ........ squeezing ..... very slowly , clck .

I am trying to shoot 5 shot groups. Because of my emphysema, it takes me a while to get my breathing right.

Is there an article  or  YT video that can coach me on the proper techniques on how to set up to shoot from a rest
with proper positioning of the bags under the butt of the gun? Yesterday I could not get the positioning right.

Thanks!

Get a set of Caldwell shooting bags . There is two bags in the set , big one for the forearm , and the little V bag for the toe .
Your off hand and arm wrap around you as you are sitting . Your off hand is manipulating the toe bag to get your elevation dead on .

When you are ready to shoot take a deep breath and slowly let it out wwhile settling the cross hairs on the bull .
While you are doing this squeeze the trigger slowly , but Only when the crosshair is where you want it .

Then Bang , BUT don't rush the shot if you are running out of breath or cant get the sight picture just right ,
just back off take a few breaths and start over .

Keep snapping in at a dot on the wall .
Also try and begin to " call your shots " while snapping in , meaning you will know (can predict) where the shot hit the target without seeing it  .

I have the Caldwell bags and a couple more. Experimenting which provide the best rest and easiest to squeeze.

Bad weather here for the next couple of days, so there will be no shooting in the snow and cold.

I do have 500 rounds of Federal American Eagle 5.56 arriving today. I had to pay more than I wanted but I needed to replenish my supply: have about 900 rounds now.
That does seem to shoot well in my AR.
Now that I know more about keeping the toe still, I should get better groups if I do what I am supposed to do.

See ya'll in a week!

This.

Also, 3 shot, even 5 shot groups don't count as a test of accuracy.  10 shot groups are real tests of accuracy.

I'm more impressed with a 10 shot group from a field position that is 4 MOA than some bencher slow firing a supported 2 MOA group.  A lot of bulk FMJ isn't capable of 2 MOA with 10 shot groups, even under the best of circumstances.    

There are also lots of variables, supported, field position, cold bore vs. hot bore, type of sights, etc.  It is also more difficult to shoot for groups in the field, with just your rifle and a sling, than supported off a bench.  There are a lot of accuracy snobs out there, but if you can keep all of your rounds in a 6" bull at 100 yards with your rifle in the field, that is combat effect out to 300 yards, which is further than most will realistically engage any target they are likely to face.

To add on to this, sometimes by simple chance, i.e. luck in terms of consecutive loads being more consistent than the normal variance would suggest, you may be able to shoot a smaller group. That does NOT mean that the small group is now the benchmark for 'what the system is capable of'. Statistically speaking it would be the opposite, an outlier.

For example, say you shoot 20 groups, and 19 of them are ~2.5 MOA and one group is ~1.5MOA. That does not mean you have a 1.5MOA capable system. It means you have a 2.5MOA capable system with one outlier.

Funny that 3-shot groups aren't enough for some, but they only count 2 of them.

Finally got out today after all of the cold, snow, and ice moved out. Got there and had 17 mph winds.
What the hell, I'm here and I'm going to shoot.
Put the target at 50 yards but forgot to support it in the wind. Won't make that mistake again. I could see it waving in the wind thru the scope.

I had 5 2" black circles on the silloute paper target, vertically. Started at the top with 5 shots on each black circle.

Best was a 1" group on the middle target. Others had a hole at 2" and a couple at 2.25". 2 shots on each hip bone and 1" apart! Still had some trouble squeezing the trigger.
Overall I was pleased.
Got my empties ejection pattern from 1-2 oclock to 4 oclock by adding a Springco orange recoil spring and a heavy duty ejector spring.

There is NO match 5.56 ammo in town and little on the Internet.

M193 is not the most accurate round, 2moa is pretty reasonable.

This is what a Krieger barreled AR-15 can do using match grade hand-loads.

10-shot group at 100 yards: .439 MOA






This is what you can expect using M193 clones fired from an AR-15 that has a chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrel with a 1:9” twist.


The accuracy specification for M193 cited in MIL-C-9963F is as follows:

"The average of the mean radii of all targets of the sample cartridges, fired at 200 yards, shall not exceed 2.0 inches."

These averages are from 10-shot groups fired from machine rested, bolt-actioned heavy test barrels.  All things being equal (which of course they seldom are) this specification equates to a mean radius of 1 inch at 100 yards.


I conducted an accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of the same four M193 clones that were chronographed above, following my usual protocols.  This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any Group Reduction Techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots). The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for.

All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrel used in the evaluation was free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was used. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up looked very similar to that pictured below.












The test vehicle for this evaluation was a 16” Colt HBAR with chrome lining, a NATO chamber and a 1:9” twist. This is the barrel found on the Colt 6721 carbine. This barrel was free-floated with a 10” LaRue free-float handguard.  I specifically choose to evaluate the accuracy this ammunition using an AR-15 with a chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrel, as this is the type of barrel that is most commonly used to fire this type of ammunition

The 16” Colt HBAR is one of the most accurate “off the shelf” chrome-lined, NATO chambered AR-15 barrels that I’ve evaluated.  Three 10-shot groups fired from this barrel from a distance of 100 yards using match-grade hand-loads topped with Sierra 52 grain MatchKings had extreme spreads of:


0.85”
1.14”
0.88”


for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 0.96”.  Over-laying the three 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab software produced a 30-shot composite target with a mean radius of 0.32”.





IMI M193

Three 10-shot groups of the IMI M193 were fired in a row from a distance of 100 yards from the Colt 16” HBAR.  Those three groups had extreme spreads of:


2.83”
2.77”
2.80”


for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.80”.  The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group.  The composite group had a mean radius of 0.97”.





American Eagle Tactical XM193


Three 10-shot groups of the American Eagle Tactical XM193 fired in a row had extreme spreads of:


3.01”
3.25”
3.57”


For a 10-shot group average of 3.27”.  The 30-shot composite group had a mean radius of 0.98”.





Prvi Partizan M193


Three 10-shot groups of the Priv Partizan M193 were fired in a row from a distance of 100 yards.  The groups had extreme spreads of:

2.72”
3.89”
3.74”


for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 3.45”.  All three of these groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group.  The mean radius for the composite group was 1.01”.





Winchester Q3131A1


Three 10-shot groups of the Winchester Q3131A1 load were fired in a row. The extreme spreads of those groups measured:

2.95”
3.73”
3.35”


for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 3.34”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the composite group was 1.05”.






Here is a summary of the results of the accuracy evaluation of the four M193 clones.






....

Thank you for the time and effort to put this together!!

Life is too short for shitty triggers.  So many choices, no reason to do anything with a stock trigger except for put it in a gun you are selling.

I would still like to meet you and learn something!

I have a 16" 1:9 Lothar-Walther barrel in my carbine, and it shoots 2 MOA with PRVI M193 (55 gr. FMJ) - 10 shot groups.
Under 1 MOA with higher quality ammo like Black Hills M193.

I'm happy with both results for defensive purposes.

I got out yesterday and shot some nice 50 yard groups, the best was 1". Worst was 2.75, due to me not pulling the trigger properly.
Still using Federal American Eagle 55 FMJ.

I want to try some really good match ammo, suggestions accepted, but there is none in town.

I’m 72 and have invested way too much time and money squeezing out as much accuracy as I can out of my ARs. A sorted SPR (Special Purpose Rifle) can get you around.5 MOA with hand loaded match ammo.  You over-the-counter $500-$700 AR shooting cheap ammo will be around 3-4”.

Ammo and specifically what your barrel likes plays a major part too.

I built an AR with a 16" Sabre Defense barrel back in 2006. I was an early adopter of the company and not many people had them. There were 2 guys on here that sent me ammo to test because they were also interested in the barrel. With the few types of ammo I shot out of it, in addition to the 2 types from other members, it refused to group inside of 2.5" at 100yds.

I was disappointed, but figured it was just a run of the mill barrel. Fast forward a couple years and I buy some Hornady 55gr V-max moly coated for coyote hunting.

First group on paper was approximately 1/2" at 105 paces (forgot my rangefinder that day). I adjusted it down and left to be more POA, and the second group was smaller yet. Had to stop there because I only had that one box left, but, to this day, I still have that target and empty box, lol

.45 case for reference. You won't believe the scope I had on top at the same time, lol

I would still love to meet you and try some of your match ammo!