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Posted: 9/21/2023 7:31:37 AM EST
[#1]
.308 is stressed at 1000 yards. .223 is anemic.
You need a fast twist barrel, 1:7 and 80 grain Sierra Match Kings seated @ 2.470" in a .223 Wylde chamber or seated at 2.550" in a 5.56mm chamber. You load them one at a time through the ejection port directly into the chamber. Basically, you have a single shot rifle. AR-15's are 700 yard rifles using magazine fed ammo. 77 grain SMK's are very capable to 700 yards when fed from a magazine. If you want a long-range rifle, and 1000 yards is long range, I would choose a different caliber. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 7:43:26 AM EST
[#2]
When AAC was introducing their 77gr SMK Mk262ish equivalent load (edit... or maybe it could have been the 75gr, I'm not sure) they filmed and released a demo video near here shooting it from a 20" match barrel and getting hits at 1k yards.
Obviously anything can be done with video editing, but they said they were able to pretty consistently hit an IPSC at that range with the right rifle, in ideal conditions, etc. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 7:44:54 AM EST
[#3]
Thanks so much for the info....Ok...I know taking this caliber out past 700 yrds. is a challenge and have really considered other calibers. I think I like the challenge of this. I have been using load lengths at 2.250 for the purpose of feeding properly but never really considered the longer round and loading singles. How would this help? Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
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Posted: 9/21/2023 7:52:51 AM EST
[#4]
Big thanks on the info...many others are suggesting to get away from the 5.56 and go with a better suited cal. I know the argument but really like this challenge. So, it looks like the 20in. barrel is the way to go. Did they mention the twist rate or acceleration rates out of the barrel?
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Posted: 9/21/2023 7:53:53 AM EST
[#5]
The longer 80gr bullets have a higher BC (better performance at long range) but can’t be seated to a depth that will be usable in a standard magazine. They will still fit in your rifle’s chamber though, they just have to be hand fed one at a time. If you want to do this in an AR-15 platform but it doesn’t have to be 5.56, I would strongly recommend 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel.
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:02:32 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Big thanks on the info...many others are suggesting to get away from the 5.56 and go with a better suited cal. I know the argument but really like this challenge. So, it looks like the 20in. barrel is the way to go. Did they mention the twist rate or acceleration rates out of the barrel? Acceleration rate is not a term that’s commonly used in shooting. Velocity is directly related to barrel length, more length = more velocity (you run into diminishing returns eventually). More velocity = less time in flight = less wind drift. You need a fast twist 1:7 to stabilize the 77 or 80gr projectiles that have the ballistic coefficient to make them viable at 1000yds. So, if I were going to build a 5.56 rig to shoot to 1000, I would pick the most accurate barrel I could afford, 20” long, in a heavy profile with a 1:7 twist. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:10:17 AM EST
[#7]
Quoted: ... modified or constructed an AR-platform to shoot distance. I know optics are critical. I am looking at an RT-S mod 5gen2 4x16x50 scope which should be good for the 1000yds but am willing to consider other scopes. As far as barrels are concerned I need help. ... competition 18 and 20 in. barrels. The questions is twist. Can I achieve enough good BC with boat tail 68 grain 5.56 just under 3000 fps to get this distance and ring some metal with a 1-7 twist with an 18in. barrel? Do I go with the 20in. barrel for a little more acceleration? Do I need to be looking for barrels with 1-9 twist? Does more acceleration out of the barrel negate the stability at distance? My Rock river trigger is good and I have a decent by-pod. I am a military trained shooter and wise to the mil-dot system. A Hornady 68-grainer launched at 2750 fps will go trans-sonic (dropping below the speed of sound) at a little past 800 yards. You'll want at least a 70 to 75-grain Very Low Drag bullet or an 80-ish grain Sierra, Berger, Nosler, or similar match-grade bullet to stay supersonic and stable. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:10:42 AM EST
[#8]
Great....will give it try. Thanks for the info!
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:10:45 AM EST
[#9]
80gr Bergers were my choice for 1Kyd matches. 77s will make it, but wind is a killer. As has been said, if you have your head set on the arbitrary 1000 number, 5.56 should not be your first choice. I always enjoyed shooting the M1A w/175gr much more.
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:20:47 AM EST
[#10]
Your right...I should be thinking Velocity ....I teach Physics and been thinking in terms of the rate of change of velocity out of the barrel. What velocity do you think I should be loading for out of the barrel? Your thoughts on the 77-80 grain boat tail match other suggestions. Big thanks on these suggestions.
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:24:01 AM EST
[#11]
What do you suggest as far as velocity with 20 in. barrel 1-7.///1-8 twist?
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:30:35 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you suggest as far as velocity with 20 in. barrel 1-7.///1-8 twist? If you are thinking 77gr, just go buy FGMM. Velocity isn't everything when you have a hot load with a SD of 50. With the hand loaded 80s, your not going to get much past what the books say as you're working with compressed loads to start with. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:33:39 AM EST
[#13]
do your self a favor and get a 24 inch barrel you will need all the velocity you can get. You need a 1/7 twist and a 75 or 77 grain bullet going as fast as it can
or get a 224 Valkyrie, it will do it easily |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:35:27 AM EST
[#14]
Sir, your right the 308/7.62 would be a better choice....This 5.56 challenge is vexing me but I have to give it a try. In basic training with chrome bore A3 standard M-16 open sights I got lucky and watched a 55 grain kick up some dust to the left a low of the pop up at 750 yards. I had a good tail wind that day and adjusted correctly. My drill serg. was watching when I knocked it down three times in a row. Was hooked from that moment on. I got to solve this. Just retired so I got time to figure this one out. Thanks for the advice.
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:42:07 AM EST
[#15]
Searched high and low on the net for barrels past 20in. could not find any. Suggestions? With a 24 in. barrel would my powder loads burn out prior to the bullet leaving the barrel, thus loosing velocity? Would the powder load exceed the book suggestions and would there even be load suggestions with that barrel? What powder load and velocity should I look for with this long barrel? Any info is highly appreciated.
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Posted: 9/21/2023 8:45:44 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sir, your right the 308/7.62 would be a better choice....This 5.56 challenge is vexing me but I have to give it a try. In basic training with chrome bore A3 standard M-16 open sights I got lucky and watched a 55 grain kick up some dust to the left a low of the pop up at 750 yards. I had a good tail wind that day and adjusted correctly. My drill serg. was watching when I knocked it down three times in a row. Was hooked from that moment on. I got to solve this. Just retired so I got time to figure this one out. Thanks for the advice. In that case where you already made up your mind, you are over complicating things. Get yourself a 20" AR. A scope that you can see the target with and some boxes of federal gold medal match 77gr cartridges. You will easily hit a full size silhouette IDPA type target at 1000yds if you have even a basic understanding of the fundamentals. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 11:01:12 AM EST
[#17]
Sir,
Ok....I am Type "A" and do tend to go a little to far sometimes...(drives my wife crazy). Will give it a try. Thanks, JDS |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 11:18:55 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: do tend to go a little to far sometimes... JDS I see what you did there... |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 12:25:47 PM EST
[#19]
The scope/optics won't be the big issue. the big issue is needing to use a round that will remain supersonic at the distance you wish to impact the target. Once a projectile gets into the transonic barrier (where it crosses from supersonic to subsonic speed) hitting any target ls largely a matter of chance because of how the bullet looses stability and begins to wobble.
This is why rounds like the 6.5 Grendel, and the larger 6.5mm rounds (6.5x47, 260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor) and 6mm rounds like the 243 Remington are superior to most of the 5.56 rounds. Sure it is possible to load long for caliber rounds into the 5.56, but that usually means the bullet has to be seated out to such a long overall cartridge length that they have to be single loaded. So, when using an AR pattern rifle for 1000 yards and beyond, OP will need something like the Grendel, or the larger AR pattern rifles such as AR10's. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 2:02:40 PM EST
[#20]
If your going to shoot in Florida your going to be shooting close to sea level. Most optics will run out of elevation before you get to 1000 yards with 5.56/223. I suggest you get a 20 MOA mount for your scope and if your really serious you probably ought to consider reloading. I’ve shot to 1000 yards at 7200’ ASL and 450’ ASL with a 20” 6.5 Grendel. The higher elevation terrain was easier to see misses than in the midwest foliage. Higher elevation helps with ballistics because of thinner atmosphere. Your in for a real challenge trying to take 5.56 to 1000 yards at sea level.
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Posted: 9/21/2023 2:08:05 PM EST
[#21]
6mm arc.
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Posted: 9/21/2023 2:54:54 PM EST
[#22]
As I'm scrolling through the thread, I can see OP's post count increase in real time...
There is some good advice here, but I'm curious about the OP's experience with the AR platform. Do you already have any ARs? If so, how far have you shot them already? I don't want to diminish your goals here, but I want to understand your starting point to make sure you get off on the right foot. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 3:17:26 PM EST
[#23]
Large frame????
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Posted: 9/21/2023 3:48:14 PM EST
[#24]
If your goal is to hit stuff at 1k with a .223/5.56, then great. Enjoy it. If your plan is simply to make consistent hits at 1k, then go with a different cartridge. 6.5G will fit in a standard AR. You don't even have to go large frame AR-10 type set up. 1k yards is doable with a 5.56, but realize that's well outside its intended purpose. You can do it, but is the priority consistent hits at 1k or doing it with a 5.56? I can get on board with either. How much money are you devoting to this? That's a solid start. Luck aside, a $600 gun with a $200 scope isn't going to get you there. Not being a dick, but realistic expectations. What is your comfortable range for gun+ optics?
This is my "accuracy gun". It's not made for long distance shots. It's made to make small groups at 100yds for fun and when I feel like it shoot Prarie dogs or a coyote out to around 300. It was designed to be a 300yd and in gun. Throw a few more inches on there, increase velocity and it'd do more. That's where you run into the caliber restraints. The bullet can only do so much. Doesn't matter what it's fired from 
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Posted: 9/22/2023 9:15:01 AM EST
[#25]
Sir,
I have considered all the things that you said. You are correct. The longer, more powerful rounds are the way to go. I think, at this point I am enjoying solving the problem of the 5.56 at distance. I just retired so I have time to tinker with this. I thought there might be others out there that have solved this. Have gotten some good advice so far. Will let everyone know if this gets solved. Big thanks, JDS |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 9:43:34 AM EST
[#26]
Sir,
Trained in the military on a A3 chrome bore open sights. Generally very hot 55 grain 3230 fps. I own a couple of AR's. A M-14 and currently a CMMG 16 barrel 1-7 twist. I can shoot 10 inch groups at 450 yrds with the CMMG shooting Match king boat tail 68 grain @ 2870 fps. Same at 300 yards with the M-14. I have a very good mil-dot scope on both. I used a bi-pod when shooting these weapons. I use Rock River competition triggers. I am currently looking at complete 20inch barrel uppers that will match the CMMG lower in order to try and get some better distance out of that rifle. I am told there are 5.56 barrel out to 24 inches but have been unable to find any on the net. My worry with the long barrel is velocity. Can I build a round that will seat from a clip with enough length and powder that will not slow down (burn all the powder) before it gets out the barrel? This is where I am at. |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 10:05:02 AM EST
[#27]
24” will still be a velocity increase, not slowing down yet.
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Posted: 9/22/2023 10:43:28 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your right...I should be thinking Velocity ....I teach Physics and been thinking in terms of the rate of change of velocity out of the barrel. What velocity do you think I should be loading for out of the barrel? Your thoughts on the 77-80 grain boat tail match other suggestions. Big thanks on these suggestions. Velocity AND mass AND stability/BC. There are lots of viable cartridges available to choose from between 5.56 and .30 cal's compatible with the AR platform. |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 11:48:30 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 24” will still be a velocity increase, not slowing down yet. An AR is less than ideal for a 24" barrel. Christ, just get a bolt gun if you're going to "go there". Honestly, OP, I've rung steel at 1K with my .308 pattern AR, but I'd grab my 6.5 CM bolt gun if I needed to engage specific targets at that range. Granted, I'd want my .308 as targets got closer, but would not be my go-to at that range. |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 3:02:08 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sir, your right the 308/7.62 would be a better choice....This 5.56 challenge is vexing me but I have to give it a try. In basic training with chrome bore A3 standard M-16 open sights I got lucky and watched a 55 grain kick up some dust to the left a low of the pop up at 750 yards. I had a good tail wind that day and adjusted correctly. My drill serg. was watching when I knocked it down three times in a row. Was hooked from that moment on. I got to solve this. Just retired so I got time to figure this one out. Thanks for the advice. |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 4:27:42 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .308 is stressed at 1000 yards. .223 is anemic. You need a fast twist barrel, 1:7 and 80 grain Sierra Match Kings seated @ 2.470" in a .223 Wylde chamber or seated at 2.550" in a 5.56mm chamber. You load them one at a time through the ejection port directly into the chamber. Basically, you have a single shot rifle. AR-15's are 700 yard rifles using magazine fed ammo. 77 grain SMK's are very capable to 700 yards when fed from a magazine. If you want a long-range rifle, and 1000 yards is long range, I would choose a different caliber. This!^^ Consider that with my 5.45x39 "holdover" on a target at 500yd is about 69 inches (5' 9") when zeroed at 200 yd. 5.56 is going to be relatively close to same, depending on bullet weight, barrel length. rate of twist, etc. Not saying don't try, no no, I get what you're wanting to do; thats how we learn. Trial/error. |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 4:33:53 PM EST
[#32]
If I wanted to reach 1k consistenly, and absolutely insisted on a small frame AR, I wouldn't consider anything other than a 6 ARC.
If I let reason dictate my decision, a 22" 6.5C would (and is) my preferred long range gas gun set up. |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 4:40:37 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your right...I should be thinking Velocity ....I teach Physics and been thinking in terms of the rate of change of velocity out of the barrel. What velocity do you think I should be loading for out of the barrel? Your thoughts on the 77-80 grain boat tail match other suggestions. Big thanks on these suggestions. Velocity is fine, but listen to these high power guys.... you can get to the point of 0 returns, and all the factors need to be taken into consideration. Sure my 300RUM will reach way out loaded hot. One might think a heavier bullet is the best. In my experience, due to extensive testing, the best bullet I can launch from my Sendero is a 180gr Swift Scirocco for overall best satisfaction. 125gr moly coated may scream out at nearly 4000fps, but they lack Ke. As far as 5.56 I am very confident some of the guys here will steer you right. I am also following along and trying to learn. Lots of good info in this thread! Thank you, 5.56 LR guys! |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 4:42:51 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Searched high and low on the net for barrels past 20in. could not find any. Suggestions? With a 24 in. barrel would my powder loads burn out prior to the bullet leaving the barrel, thus loosing velocity? Would the powder load exceed the book suggestions and would there even be load suggestions with that barrel? What powder load and velocity should I look for with this long barrel? Any info is highly appreciated. Most 24's are SS. HighPowerRifleBrony recently mentioned White Oak Armory. I would listen to him! |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 4:46:48 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 24” will still be a velocity increase, not slowing down yet. 100% this ^^ even out to 26" |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 5:57:07 PM EST
[#36]
I think you ought to look at 6mm ARC. cartridge is designed to fit in an AR-15 package, to reach out and touch someone, kind of far.
if the idea is to pull up to the range with a bone-stock looking AR with impressive long-range performance, I think the 6ARC is the perfect sleeper. I would also recommend a first focal plane (FFP) scope, preferably with at least a 56mm objective, 34mm tube size, something with 25x-35x max zoom, so that at 15x to 20x, you're in the sweet spot of the scope abilities, and I like the MRAD christmas-tree reticles. JMO. |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 6:12:59 PM EST
[#37]
Isn’t 1000 yards like 90-110” of drop
Realistically need at least a 24” bolt Gun But your money And at least a$1000.00 Scope |
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Posted: 9/22/2023 7:13:20 PM EST
[#38]
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Taking_my_16_AR_out_to_1200_yards__Updated_with_results/5-1935706/?page=1
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Posted: 9/23/2023 12:08:56 PM EST
[#39]
Here is what can be done with a stock A2 with iron sights and M855 at 1,000 yards: https://looserounds.com/ar15-at-1000-yards-can-a-rack-grade-ar15-and-m855-make-1000-yard-hits/
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Posted: 9/23/2023 12:37:13 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn’t 1000 yards like 90-110” of drop Realistically need at least a 24” bolt Gun But your money And at least a$1000.00 Scope I've done 1k with a 20" AR and 77gr handloads. It's not ideal but certainly doable. Drop at 1k is approximately 384" (32ft) from my dope. You need a long barrel, consistent ammo, solid glass, and good dope to do it "right." I'll second recommendations for a better long range caliber though if it is something you plan to do regularly. |
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Posted: 9/27/2023 10:26:21 AM EST
[#41]
I shot for the Air Force Rifle Team for six years, including switching from the M-14 to AR-15/M-16 at 1K with iron sights.
5.56mm at 1K is not difficult. Are there better calibers, yes, of course. You need to be on top of your wind calls. Here is what I have used with great success: Uppers: - 20" 1/8 RRA upper - 24" 1/7.7 White Oak Match upper Ammo: - Mk262 Mod 1 (77gr SMK) - 77gr SMK with 24.5gr TAC, 2.25" - 80gr SMK with 24.5gr TAC (Single feed fit to chamber) |
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Posted: 9/27/2023 3:53:11 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Searched high and low on the net for barrels past 20in. could not find any. Suggestions? With a 24 in. barrel would my powder loads burn out prior to the bullet leaving the barrel, thus loosing velocity? Would the powder load exceed the book suggestions and would there even be load suggestions with that barrel? What powder load and velocity should I look for with this long barrel? Any info is highly appreciated. https://eabco.com/ar-15-hbar-24-accuracy-barrel-by-eabco-stainless-fluted-threaded-5-56-nato-223-rem-223-wylde-national-match/ https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?barrel_caliber=14&barrel_length=8&q=AR15+Bull+Barrel+Varmint+24 https://ar15depot.com/barrels.htm/ar15-barrels-24 https://www.brownells.com/gun-parts/rifle-parts/rifle-barrels-parts/?facets=MakeAndModels%3AAR-15&facets=Attributes%3ABarrel+Length%7C24.00&sort=NumberOfReviews |
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Posted: 9/27/2023 5:24:25 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Searched high and low on the net for barrels past 20in. could not find any. Suggestions? With a 24 in. barrel would my powder loads burn out prior to the bullet leaving the barrel, thus loosing velocity? Would the powder load exceed the book suggestions and would there even be load suggestions with that barrel? What powder load and velocity should I look for with this long barrel? Any info is highly appreciated. Here is what I used: https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/white-oak-precision-match-rifle-optic-barrel-1-7-7-twist.html - 77gr SMK or 80gr SMK with 24.5 grains of TAC (77gr loaded to mag length, and 80gr loaded just into the lands for single feed) |
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Posted: 9/28/2023 9:06:41 AM EST
[#44]
If you want a 1000 yard AR-15, then 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel or 224 Valkyrie are the best choices.
A better choice, and one that can probably go out closer to 1200-1500 yards from a semi-auto platform, would be getting a quality AR-10 chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. |
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Posted: 9/30/2023 8:20:01 AM EST
[#45]
Just finished a class with Joe Dawson and a guy was consistently hitting targets at 1,400 yds with a 18 inch barrel and 77 gr ammo. You can take a 5.56 out a lot farther than people give it credit for.
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Posted: 9/30/2023 8:29:36 AM EST
[#46]
…..
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Posted: 9/30/2023 8:31:29 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just finished a class with Joe Dawson and a guy was consistently hitting targets at 1,400 yds with a 18 inch barrel and 77 gr ammo. You can take a 5.56 out a lot farther than people give it credit for. With low or no breeze, yes. Wind is rough on 5.56. |
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Posted: 9/30/2023 8:39:39 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just finished a class with Joe Dawson and a guy was consistently hitting targets at 1,400 yds with a 18 inch barrel and 77 gr ammo. You can take a 5.56 out a lot farther than people give it credit for. |
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Posted: 9/30/2023 8:50:13 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which 77gr bullet? Honestly don’t know. There was a mixture of sierra, hornady, Berger, PSA, etc in the class. |
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Posted: 9/30/2023 9:09:36 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just finished a class with Joe Dawson and a guy was consistently hitting targets at 1,400 yds with a 18 inch barrel and 77 gr ammo. You can take a 5.56 out a lot farther than people give it credit for. That, I would have a hard time believing. How big was the target, and who measured the distance? |
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