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Posted: 5/25/2020 6:10:56 PM EDT
[#1]
If you don't reload and want to shoot a lot I'd think the x39 is the obvious choice.
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Posted: 5/25/2020 6:14:16 PM EDT
[#2]
I’m liking subsonic .308, personally (bolt gun, not gas).
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Posted: 5/25/2020 6:16:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you don't reload and want to shoot a lot I'd think the x39 is the obvious choice. I do like to shoot a lot. Not currently reloading. |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 6:19:38 PM EDT
[#4]
If you're not set up to handload, you probably won't enjoy the blackout much.
It's ideal for subs suppressed. If you just want to shoot supers suppressed, 7.62x39 (assuming that's the 7.62 you were referring to, given that there's a few dozen rounds that could be called "7.62") is definitely the way to go if you're not handloading. That being said, the sooner you get into handloading the better off you'll be. Projectiles are by far the most expensive part of .300 Blackout; brass i just cut down a boatload of lake city 5.56 range pickups, presumably all 1x fired, so that was just time (and maybe 30 bucks all in for cutting tooling--easily made back by cutting down more range pickup brass and selling it). Powder for subs is around the 4 cents-per-round mark. Primers are about the same, 3-4 cents per. Comes out to moa (or better) from subs at under 50 cents per round if you only buy in 100-bullet retail packs for projectiles--cheaper if you buy bulk. They go for, what, 1.25 a round or more for commercial? Rambling aside, 7.62x39 if you just wanna plink or maybe hunt with a 30-cal supersonic small-frame AR. Blackout if you wanna handload and have some fun with 200-yard steel and subsonics. 
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Posted: 5/25/2020 6:22:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're not set up to handload, you probably won't enjoy the blackout much. It's ideal for subs suppressed. If you just want to shoot supers suppressed, 7.62x39 (assuming that's the 7.62 you were referring to, given that there's a few dozen rounds that could be called "7.62") is definitely the way to go if you're not handloading. That being said, the sooner you get into handloading the better off you'll be. Projectiles are by far the most expensive part of .300 Blackout; brass i just cut down a boatload of lake city 5.56 range pickups, presumably all 1x fired, so that was just time (and maybe 30 bucks all in for cutting tooling--easily made back by cutting down more range pickup brass and selling it). Powder for subs is around the 4 cents-per-round mark. Primers are about the same, 3-4 cents per. Comes out to moa (or better) from subs at under 50 cents per round if you only buy in 100-bullet retail packs for projectiles--cheaper if you buy bulk. They go for, what, 1.25 a round or more for commercial? Rambling aside, 7.62x39 if you just wanna plink or maybe hunt with a 30-cal supersonic small-frame AR. Blackout if you wanna handload and have some fun with 200-yard steel and subsonics. I am referring to 39, thanks for pointing that out. I really don't have time to handload right now. I own a business and have 2 young kids. Really can't justify the time it would take. Maybe when my son is older we could do it together. |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 6:34:16 PM EDT
[#6]
8" barrel? Yeah 300blk hands down
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Posted: 5/25/2020 7:06:06 PM EDT
[#7]
The only reason I would choose 300BLK over x39 is the corner case scenarios of pistol hunting with a straight walled cartridge, or I had a complete reloading setup already and REALLY loved reloading.
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Posted: 5/25/2020 7:15:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Since you are suppressed and if you want to shoot subs then 300BLK is by far the better choice. Especially being 8 inches where the 300BLK excells. The 300BLK has a dozen subsonic loads from most manufactures some expanding and some plinking. The 7.62X39 is extremely limited on what subs are available and they tend to cost just as much or more than the 300BLK. Plus the 7.62X39 was setup for shooting supers and while some do cycle subs a lot of them won't do it reliably.
The 300BLK hunting/home defense ammo also has a lot more to select from. With the 110gr Barnes black tip being one of the best out there. Just like with the subs the hunting/home defense ammo for the 7.62X39 cost just as much or more than the 300BLK. Then you have to factor that you have to buy a bolt that is not standard and has a tendency to crack as they reamed out a large portion of it to make the 7.62 fit in the AR. If you chose to use a standard AR lower you can't use AK magazines and they tend to not be near as reliable as the standard AK or AR magazines or you have to buy a specialized lower that will fit AK magazines. The only advantage the AK has in an AR platform is the cheaper plinking ammo that is not very accurate which kinda negates the advantages of an AR. With the introduction of steel case ammo to the 300BLK that just started shipping even that advantage is going to dwindle. |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 7:18:26 PM EDT
[#9]
As an AK manufacturer, I'd vote 300 BO. You can retain great ballistic performance with a very short barrel and you'll have 99% parts commonality with your ARs
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Posted: 5/25/2020 7:19:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only reason I would choose 300BLK over x39 is the corner case scenarios of pistol hunting with a straight walled cartridge, or I had a complete reloading setup already and REALLY loved reloading. You think the 300BLK is straight walled? Why only if reloading? Every ammunition manufacture makes ammo for the 300BLK. It can be found in abundance in Walmart and any sporting good store. On Midway USA there are over 64 different boxes of 300BLK ammo available so why do you say that only if you REALLY loved reloading? |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 8:24:01 PM EDT
[#11]
300blk for me. I just buy a couple boxes everytime I see them. Now have 1000rds and 2000 pieces of brass ready for reloading. Subs is where the 300shines. It sounds like a pneumatic staplegun when you shoot with a can. I love the smiles from folks when they shoot mine.
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Posted: 5/25/2020 8:37:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only reason I would choose 300BLK over x39 is the corner case scenarios of pistol hunting with a straight walled cartridge, or I had a complete reloading setup already and REALLY loved reloading. 300blk isn't a straight walled cartridge. The shoulder is very minimal, but there is a shoulder just the same. |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 10:56:45 PM EDT
[#13]
7.62x39 subs? Factory ammo? Is there such a thing?
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Posted: 5/25/2020 11:05:19 PM EDT
[#14]
9x39, you can get a barrel as short as 4 3/4 inches, all subsonic ammo, 278 grain Wolf.
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Posted: 5/25/2020 11:15:19 PM EDT
[#15]
What's more important subsonic loads or cheaper ammo? If you weren't planning on doing subsonic stuff the 7.62x39 is a great choice. If you want subs the 300 has a million to choose from.
Quoted: 7.62x39 subs? Factory ammo? Is there such a thing? Yes but certainly not as common and I have no idea if it would cycle a shorty the few tests I saw were 16" barrels. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 6:08:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's more important subsonic loads or cheaper ammo? If you weren't planning on doing subsonic stuff the 7.62x39 is a great choice. If you want subs the 300 has a million to choose from. Yes but certainly not as common and I have no idea if it would cycle a shorty the few tests I saw were 16" barrels. Short barrel with suppressor is totally dependent on gas system. Most x39 subs are 200grn. Optimal for 300blk is 220. I have both. X39 gets nod for steel cased cheap ammo. 300blk if you reload. It’s a wash on efficiency in short barrels. 16” barrel x39 is about 150-200fps faster with 120grn |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 8:42:56 AM EDT
[#17]
Blackout all night long
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Posted: 5/26/2020 12:09:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Without specific requirements for what you want the cartridge to do, I also lean toward recommending the Blackout. Another poster suggested the 9x39, but that's a non starter given your can.
Yeah, you'll pay more per round than 7.62x39, but with Blackout you have the choice to shoot supers and subs from the same gun. I believe 7.62x39 subs and supers are possible, but one issue you'll have is finding a barrel with a fast enough twist to stabilize heavy subs, something that's no problem in Blackout. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 3:43:53 PM EDT
[#19]
.300blk based on what you listed.
Hell, if you don't like it, you are only out a barrel, and maybe a pistol length gas tube. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 4:26:51 PM EDT
[#20]
Dirt shooting, steel, or paper it’s functionally a wash, although 7.62 x 39 is really inefficient below 12” barrels. Killing meat with a 8” barrel nothing can touch a 110 grain Barnes Vortex 300 Blackout out of an 8” barrel. Perfect match for your suppressor and lots of great choices in factory ammo. The only downside is ammo cost, but cheap steel case is on the horizon.
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Posted: 5/26/2020 5:27:27 PM EDT
[#21]
x39 will work the action on a AR as a sub with 220 gr bullets and 10.3 gr of 2400 out of a 7 1/2", wolf 124 gr makes one hell of a fire ball:)
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Posted: 5/26/2020 5:56:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Dirt shooting, steel, or paper it’s functionally a wash, although 7.62 x 39 is really inefficient below 12” barrels. Killing meat with a 8” barrel nothing can touch a 110 grain Barnes Vortex 300 Blackout out of an 8” barrel. Perfect match for your suppressor and lots of great choices in factory ammo. The only downside is ammo cost, but cheap steel case is on the horizon. What do you mean inefficient? What’s the speed difference? Either way the same bullet will always be faster out of the 7.62x39 |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 6:52:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you mean inefficient? What’s the speed difference? Either way the same bullet will always be faster out of the 7.62x39 Inefficient as in a lot of gas (and any unburnt powder) igniting outside of the barrel, (as opposed to pushing the bullet faster inside the barrel) hence the large muzzle blast. 7.62x51 will always be faster than 7.62x39 (or 7.62x35), but I won't not want to shoot 7.62x51 out of an 8" barrel as that would be very inefficient to say the least. 7.62x39 will be faster than .300blk because its case holds more powder. But out of really short barrels, .300blk will be more efficient (less gas/powder wasted, and the bullets have better BC's). |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 7:39:26 PM EDT
[#24]
So what are their respective efficiency numbers?
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Posted: 5/27/2020 2:08:36 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what are their respective efficiency numbers? 7.62 x 39 123-125 grain loads will use 25-30 grains of powder, compared to blackout’s 17-20 grains of powder for same bullet weight. Blackout muzzle velocity is a little less for a given barrel length, but catches up 100ish yards out as .308 bullets usually have better ballistic coefficients than 0.312 bullets. In terms of cost efficiency the steel case 7.62 x 39 will probably have an edge for a long time to come. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 2:55:17 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you mean inefficient? What’s the speed difference? Either way the same bullet will always be faster out of the 7.62x39 I see 16.5" 7.62x39 pushing 122gr bullets at 2383FPS. Hodgdon lists the 300BO 125gr at 2402FPS. In 8.5" barrels, still neck and neck (~2000FPS) with the 125gr bullets. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 11:34:24 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see 16.5" 7.62x39 pushing 122gr bullets at 2383FPS. Hodgdon lists the 300BO 125gr at 2402FPS. In 8.5" barrels, still neck and neck (~2000FPS) with the 125gr bullets. Those numbers are correct but out of context max loads. Factory ammo isn’t even close. Tula 122 runs 2400 out my 16” Remington 120Otm runs 2250 |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 3:08:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 7.62 x 39 123-125 grain loads will use 25-30 grains of powder, compared to blackout’s 17-20 grains of powder for same bullet weight. Blackout muzzle velocity is a little less for a given barrel length, but catches up 100ish yards out as .308 bullets usually have better ballistic coefficients than 0.312 bullets. In terms of cost efficiency the steel case 7.62 x 39 will probably have an edge for a long time to come. One other factor to consider is the OP specified an 8" tube and that is going to diminish much of any advantage that the 7.62x39 may have had. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 5:14:13 PM EDT
[#29]
I own both and shoot my 300 Blk MUCH more than 7.62x39. I went w/ 300 Blk initially because x39 subs were not widely available at the time. Brown Bear now has reasonably priced x39 subs, but they are around the same price as subsonic Blk. For the barrel length you are looking at, I would go 300 Blk.
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Posted: 5/28/2020 4:07:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those numbers are correct but out of context max loads. Factory ammo isn’t even close. Tula 122 runs 2400 out my 16” Remington 120Otm runs 2250 Fair enough. While harder to find, the 300BLK factory load tests I found show the 125gr out of 16" barrels to be pretty darn slow, comparatively. |
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Posted: 5/28/2020 10:50:56 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fair enough. While harder to find, the 300BLK factory load tests I found show the 125gr out of 16" barrels to be pretty darn slow, comparatively. Powder burn rate has a lot to do with that too. *most* blackout loads use a faster burning powder to get it all burned in the typically much shorter barrels. so the bullet won't accelerate at the same rate the entire length of the barrel like an x39 would with a slower burning powder. |
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Posted: 5/28/2020 2:44:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Powder burn rate has a lot to do with that too. *most* blackout loads use a faster burning powder to get it all burned in the typically much shorter barrels. so the bullet won't accelerate at the same rate the entire length of the barrel like an x39 would with a slower burning powder. As the response to my post said, the OP doesnt reload. Therefore stuck with factory ammo. From what I can see, in a 16" barrel, 125gr blackout factory ammo doesnt get anywhere near what handloaded ammo does, and in that regard 7.62x39 is a pretty clear winner in terms of velocity (in a 16" barrel), cost, and availability. Maybe 125gr factory 300BLK ammo does great in 8" barrels, but trying to find tests of factory ammo in that barrel length, with that bullet weight, vs 7.62x39 in the same barrel length, was hard for me to find. |
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Posted: 5/28/2020 5:03:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As the response to my post said, the OP doesnt reload. Therefore stuck with factory ammo. From what I can see, in a 16" barrel, 125gr blackout factory ammo doesnt get anywhere near what handloaded ammo does, and in that regard 7.62x39 is a pretty clear winner in terms of velocity (in a 16" barrel), cost, and availability. Maybe 125gr factory 300BLK ammo does great in 8" barrels, but trying to find tests of factory ammo in that barrel length, with that bullet weight, vs 7.62x39 in the same barrel length, was hard for me to find. Most .300blk ammo is rated on on 16" barrels. But most .300blk barrels fall with the the 7.5 to 10.5 range. What we know is that the caliber is efficient for short barrels, mostly do to the limited powder capacity. You wont find many 7.62x39 factory numbers for 8" barrels, but it is safe to say that at 8" barrel length, x% more powder in 7.62x39 will not get you the same x% move velocity over .300blk, but it will get you more flash. On the flip side, not too many people run 16" 300blk because doubling the barrel length (8" vs 16") might net out a only a 12%-13% increase in velocity. That is what is meant by efficiency for short barrels. |
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Posted: 5/28/2020 6:41:59 PM EDT
[#34]
As others have noted, if you go with x39, factory loaded subs will be hard to find. 300 BO subs are abundant. For full power loads, x39 has a slight advantage, which to me is more than offset by the requirement generally for a unique lower, and unique mags to run x39 reliably. You will be less money into a 300 BO setup that will run reliably, and if you decide to SBR the lower, you can readily change it to other calibers.
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Posted: 5/28/2020 6:53:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 8" barrel? Yeah 300blk hands down Yup. Wolf has their supers out and supposedly subs by end of summer. So can shoot quiet for a better price and run premium amid for HD/SD |
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Posted: 5/29/2020 5:10:59 AM EDT
[#36]
I built my own (80%) BRS47 and it runs like a top. If shooting supressed is your goal, make it a piston gun. You can buy subsonic 7.62 Russian on the interwebs.
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Posted: 5/29/2020 5:39:44 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I built my own (80%) BRS47 and it runs like a top. If shooting supressed is your goal, make it a piston gun. You can buy subsonic 7.62 Russian on the interwebs. Why a piston? Pistons usually run cleaner in non suppressed guns but with a suppressor they get just as dirty as DI. Also pistons are louder than DI guns as the pistons let exhaust gases out shortly after exiting the gas port releasing higher pressure and hotter gasses into the open air. Also pistons are much harder to tune to a system that will run both supers and subs reliably. Pistons were tried in the early years of the 300BLK and because there was such a difference in pressure and gas volume between supers and subs they had a really hard time getting them to run both especially in shorter barrels where there was very little dwell time. This is why you don't see many 300BLK with pistons. 7.62 subs still aren't nearly as plentiful as 300BLK subs. They are just as expensive and they don't have the variety of plinking, semi expanding and expanding subs. It is even hit or miss if you can get a barrel that was built for supers to run subs reliably. Plus with most AR 7.62X39 barrels running 1:9 or less twists you take the chance of not stabilizing the heavier subsonic bullets which can damage to the suppressor. |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 2:17:35 AM EDT
[#38]
If I was shooting suppressed frequently, I would choose a piston system because I don’t like the escaping gas that blows out through the charging handle hitting my face. There are a variety of adjustable piston systems to choose from.
I haven’t yet run into an issue with baffle strikes from subsonic 7.62X39 projectiles, and I haven’t heard that’s an issue in general for that cartridge (baffle strikes are a real issue, but it’s a pain shared across lots of calibers). The 7.62 Russian cartridge has a generous capacity allowing one to use it for all kinds of applications including full power loads and subsonic. Other than 22 rimfire all of the subsonic ammo I’ve purchased is priced higher than standard rounds, but that’s another reason I reload, even though the OP doesn’t. Suppressed shooting always creates more fouling (piston or not), and I tend to think of it as the equivalent of black powder hunting: fun, with advantages but with extra work involved. |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 7:43:34 AM EDT
[#39]
Suppressed I’d go .300bo. Same bolt & mags as 5.56 AR. Lots of options for factory & reman sub loads.
You’ll find .300bo subs on the shelf before you ever see subsonic 7,62x39. 7.62x39 supers will give you more energy, steel case is cheap. But beyond semi hollow points and soft points not much in terms of bullet selection. With good quality mags like CPDs they’re reliable. I know some guys running suppressors want clean burning ammo. I would not call imported steel case 7.62x39 clean. |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 9:12:34 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’ll find .300bo subs on the shelf before you ever see subsonic 7,62x39. Midway has Atomic Tactical subs. You know, because there's this internet thing now. I dunno though, it probably won't catch on. |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 1:59:07 PM EDT
[#41]
Looking quickly at what's in stock on the interwebs, subsonic 7.62X39 ranges from $0.40 to $1.50 per round.
About the same as 300 BO. Agreed that you can't find it at a big box store. |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 3:24:57 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking quickly at what's in stock on the interwebs, subsonic 7.62X39 ranges from $0.40 to $1.50 per round. About the same as 300 BO. Agreed that you can't find it at a big box store. 7.62x39 subs will not cycle. Stop trying to compare it to 300 Black, which will. Do you own or plan to own a .30 cal suppressor? Yes Then you want 300 Blackout Do you want a SBR or pistol with less than 10" barrel? Yes Then you want 300 Blackout Or do you want a cheap blaster? Then get 7.62x39 |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 5:24:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Wow, I did not know that 7.62 subs won't cycle!
My pistol is magical because it does. I wonder if Bernie Sanders built it, because he's magical too (I have a t-shirt with Bernie on a unicorn). I should probably let Dead Air know that their Wolverine suppressor (made for the 7.62 Russian) won't work with subsonic rounds. This could save them thousands of dollars. |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 7:38:37 PM EDT
[#44]
There have been several threads on here stating that the 7.62x39 subs do cycle.
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Posted: 5/30/2020 8:23:02 PM EDT
[#45]
Guess I'm wrong then
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Posted: 5/30/2020 10:48:16 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Guess I'm wrong then No worries. I don't think it's widespread knowledge that one can get supers and subs in 7.62x39 to cycle. I've been shooting Blackout for more than six years and didn't think about heavy 7.62x39 subs until I saw a post relatively recently here on ARFcom. "Relatively recently" could have been as long as a year ago given how crappy my memory is. 
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Posted: 5/31/2020 2:09:12 AM EDT
[#47]
I think what made the 7.62 Russian more popular on the AR platform were the variants that allowed us to use AK mags in the firearm.
Suddenly they became more reliable in terms of feeding as well as accuracy. After I built mine I wondered why I was so late to the game. It’s definitely the cartridge I would grab for TEOTWAWKI. |
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Posted: 5/31/2020 8:26:36 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only reason I would choose 300BLK over x39 is the corner case scenarios of pistol hunting with a straight walled cartridge, or I had a complete reloading setup already and REALLY loved reloading. 300 BLK isn’t a straight wall cartridge. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 9:08:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Here is a very interesting article regarding the 300BO...…
300 AAC Low Visibility Carbine I have a SILENCERCO - OMEGA suppressor on an 8" barreled AR and it is fun. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 10:34:55 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 300 BLK isn’t a straight wall cartridge. Exactly why I now have a .450 Bushmaster in addition to my .300BLK.
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