I am primarily a meat hunter, and have grown up on the AR platform. I just shoot far better on the AR15 than any of my bolt guns, etc. I primarily hunt mule deer, in Utah. Is 6.5 enough gun to ethically harvest a mule deer? I have definitely seen people use them on hogs with success. Are there good commercial hunting rounds available? What about distance limitations, etc? I really have only been hunting for the past 4 years or so, and want to make sure I am ethical in my choices. thanks

ROCKO

many of the guys on 65grendel hunt with them

lots of posts on various ammo types

Thanks! I did a search and looked through this forum, but couldn't find much!

The Grendel is perfect for medium sized game like deer, hogs, and black bear.  Will work fine on large game such as moose and elk if you limit the range and use deeper penetrating rounds.  As with all hunting, shot placement matters more than caliber.

Do a google image search "6.5 Grendel hunting".

There are pics of elk taken DRT with 16", as well as 20" and 24" guns.

Plenty of deer, hogs, and antelope have fallen to Grendel.

It's kinda like a 250-3000 Savage, .257 Roberts, and 6.5x55 Mauser all mixed together.

Same performance as a 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schönauer.

Where the increased hit potential comes from is being able to get more trigger time with it, since recoil and muzzle blast are lower than larger case capacity cartridges with medium bores.

I’m pretty excited to take my G’s out this Fall. Both shoot great with SSTs.

Hornady's 123 SST loading is hard to beat for commercial hunting load

The 123gr SST is a very good choice. Hog in my avatar fell to the 6.5 Grendel along with several deer pic's that Photo Bucket ate. I've lost track of the Hogs I've killed with it. Personally on a Big Mule Deer I would limit my range to about 250 yards unless I was shooting a barnes style or partition bullet.

I’d feel the same way about using it with larger game. I see a lot talk about using it for larger game at range up north, and maybe it’s my inner fudd coming out, but that’d make me a bit leery. Then again I’ve used .223 on whitetail for years, which many feel the same way about, so I guess YMMV. Shot placement and bullet selection are oftentimes more important than caliber, at least to me.

W.D.M. Bell used 6.5x54 M-S on elephants in Africa, as well as 7x57 Mauser and .303 Enfield.

Keep it within your personal capabilities and limitations, and that of the projectile, and get a lot of productive trigger time with the rifle/optic/mount/ammo.

For some, that means they are very comfortable taking 75-175yd shots, for others 250-350yds, and others farther.

Agree with this and will add 6.5mm bullets have a comparatively higher sectional density.  W.D.M Bell was using heavy 6.5 M-S rounds at lower velocities.  He could have chosen much larger and proven calibers but stuck with 6.5 and 7mm, partly because of availability, but mostly because they were effective and did not punish him every time he pulled the trigger.
The 6.5 Grendel is such a polite cartridge.  People really enjoy shooting it and  tend to shoot it more often with greater accuracy.  This in turn leads to better shot placement on game, more DRT.

Yes, definitely viable round for hunting mulies.  Unfortunately my only 6.5 prefers the ELD-M factory loading over the SST, but it's not that big of a discrepancy.  I did get a hold of some Barnes bullets to load up, but haven't even had a chance to do that.  If you're comfortable with the platform, it's a no-brainer.  Presuming you are shooting at 0-250 yds?

cross post from your other thread.

I use a 16" here in SC. If I lived in your area chasing mulies I would go with a 20" minimum. I don't stretch much beyond 150yds for my shots on game so it works fine for me. My son shoots a 20" and while at the range yesterday his demonstrated it was a flatter shooting gun. It was obvious even without shooting over a chronograph. From 50-100 yards his was within an inch vertically while my rifle was more like 1.5 inches.

As far as bullets go, as already mentioned above, don't go for monolithic copper bullets. A Grendel spits the bullets out a cup and core speeds so use cup and core bullets. The old AMax and the ELD-M work fine as hunting bullets out of a Grendel. Watch for the bullet testing videos that @bluefalcon will be posting soon. He assured me the ELD-M was "legit" without giving spoilers from the tests. The cartridge needs to thought of as a 30/30 with a ton more reach if needed. IT IS NOT a long range hunting cartridge in like a 270WSM, 300WM, 7MM Mag, or even 30/06.

Others here will tell you a Grendel is a do it all, shoots above its weight class, elk cartridge. Yes it does those things but like any hunting cartridge, shot placement is above all else.

One thing to keep in mind for Utah is that we don't have many elevations that are anywhere close to sea level.

Mean elevation is 6100ft ASL, while most of the inhabitants are between 4400 and 6600, with Park City being in the 7000ft area.



What that translates to for barrel length is better down-range performance than at sea level.

If you input the barometric pressure values in your ballistics program, you'll see right away what I'm talking about.

The kids and I have been using the Grendel on whitetail for years. I have used every barrel length from 10" to 28" and personally think that 18" is about right in most cases. I have one rifle that we use more often than not. It is an 18" SPR profile that I came up with while at AA. Bill gave me the prototype barrel after we tested it and it is still going strong. Shoots lights out and has accounted for many deer. All but one have been one shot kills and that one was my fault. I shot straight down at the base of the neck and the doe was suffering.....will not try that again.

Okay, I am going to present the unpopular contrary thought here.

If you are hunting mule deer, you are likely going to be in country where long distance shots are much more common. On a larger animal like a mule deer, you are pushing the limits of this round and have a higher chance of making that animal suffer unnecessarily.

I would recommend selecting a better tool for the job and moving into a AR10 platform. This is going to give you a lot more flexibility in the terrain you are in.

This is a situation where you should really evaluate what you can do vs what you should do. Be humane.

PSA 12" 1:8
Hornady 123g SST @ 2,275fps
Sea-level

100y = 2,117 fps & 1,224 ft-lbs @ +3.2"
200y = 1,965 fps & 1,055 ft-lbs @ zero
300y = 1,821 fps & 905 ft-lbs @ -12.1"
400y = 1,684 fps & 774 ft-lbs  @ -34.8"

The numbers all look even better going to 16, 18 or 20" lengths.

What kind of mule deer are you hunting?

I have that PSA 12 inch upper and even I sometimes think it is inadequate to hunt with. But then I remember:  a 357 mag 6in revolver at the muzzle with a 125gr bullet is only doing 1400 fps. What deer could you not drop from one foot away?
The 6.5 Grendel is plenty good enough to hunt with.

I have owned several AR10s, and kept my .260 Rem build from GAP.

Along with the terrain where we encounter mule deer, elevation is another factor, meaning higher altitude, less oxygen, and less density.

Higher chances of making animals suffer come from bad shot placement, regardless of cartridge.

Bad shot placement comes from not practicing a lot with the rifle, in the conditions you will use it in, along with rifles that are difficult to hold in position.

There is no way I'm lugging an AR10 up in these mountains.  Only way would be to put it on a crazy Titanium and carbon fiber diet, which would make recoil mitigation an even bigger challenge.

There are plenty of hunting projectiles for 6.5 Grendel that will and have performed on mulies, even before a lot of the more recent bullets have been introduced.

The 123gr SST will get it done just fine.  I had several opportunities for mule deer shots on my last elk hunt that would have been DRTs easily, as I was using 94gr Hornady GMX experimental bullets in my 17.6" Grendel.  I would have had zero ethical reservations of making those shots, especially since I had rear aspect into the spine and close range.

129gr ABLR will more than get it done too.  They expand immediately in tissue, retain most of their weight, and plow through with .6" to .7" diameter.

Barnes bullets work.  The new Lehigh 110gr Controlled Chaos open up down to 1500fps.

Maker bullets expand fully and kill.

People have DRT'd elk with 123gr SST from 16" barrels at close range.

If someone is shooting past 200yds, then I recommend getting a lot of quality trigger time with formal training if you haven't done it before.  It will change who you are as a shooter to get good instruction and days of training doing it.

If you haven't, maybe consider keeping it inside of 200yds and still practice with the rifle on making consistent hits in a 10" vital zone right where you want them.

That is true regardless of what cartridge you are shooting.

A 7mm Mag will not increase your hit probability past 200yds if you haven't trained with the rifle.

Most people with 7mm Mags don't even have a scope that is suited for engagement past 250-275yds, depending on what zero they're using, and if they zero down in the valleys at the local rifle range or out back, that longer zero will not be correct for 6600-9000ft+ of elevation.

Another problem with .308s and magnums is that you can't get the same quality training time in due to muzzle blast and recoil.  Those are contributors to reduced hit probability and definitely reduce any chances you had of seeing your own hit, so you better have trained observers spotting for you when you make the shot to tell you whether to make another, or to let the animal bleed out and not spook.

I can have whatever I want.  I have plenty of the larger caliber rifles in my armory, but unless I'm doing dedicated long range hunting, I'll be taking the 6.5 Grendels for most of my normal hunts, knowing that others in my party will have larger cartridges so I can spot for them if they're trained to make the long shots.

Awesome hunting round for whitetail sized game and smaller under 300 yards.

If your shooting at animals bigger than that, or further than that away, use something with more ass. Your freezer, and the spirit of your quarry will thank you.

Miss Piggy appears to have mastitis.

Yeah she lost a couple piglets prior to her dirt nap!

You prove my point, if you want to limit your effective hunting range, and miss out on longer range opportunities, go for it.

If you want to maximize your opportunity for clean kills in mule deer terrain, then use the correct tool, a .308, or greater platform rifle. I did not say a .308 cartridge.

If someone has trouble hunting / practicing with an AR 10, for mountain applications, whew, maybe athletic / resistance training might be a worthwhile undertaking.

I mean sure but by that logic, why not carry a 50BMG?  Also by the same logic, you could just get closer...you're really not doing much "hunting" if you're shooting something at distance.  Hell hunting with a rifle in general barely qualifies.  But the point people are making is that within reason, a lighter weight grendel makes all the sense in the world for hiking and climbing to get within an ethical range to kill an animal.

I would choose a 6.5 Grendel over a .308 every day and twice on Sunday when hunting mule deer.

My hit probability is higher with 6.5 Grendel and 129gr ABLR, with half the recoil of the .308, and a much lighter gun.

I also have much better expansion potential with the 129gr ABLR than I do with the .308 Winchester, unless I shoot the 168gr ABLR from the .308 (with twice the recoil, inflated BC value, heavier rifle, more muzzle blast, giant BCG, extended LOP/balance problems, etc.).

With me spotting, the other shooters in my group have better hit potential than they do if they were spotting for me.  That's why it makes sense for me to carry a lighter rifle and drive the spotting scope and binos.  I've been reading the wind and shooting long range as part of my job since 1995.

If I was making the shot myself, I'm still able to exploit more effective range than the average hunter, even when using an AR15 with a much shorter barrel, because of shooting LR regularly for over 2 decades.

It will be a strange day if you ever see me with an AR10 in the mountains.  Only one I would consider would be on a serious diet, maybe CF barrel, small frame receiver, Ti parts all over, etc.   My .260 Rem 22" AR10 is 14 lbs with optics.  That's a target rifle, not a mountain stick.

I could shoot .308 if I wanted to, but because I like hitting my targets with more predictability, less recoil, with comparable terminal performance, I can't find any sound argument for me to shoot .308 Win.  You really have to get behind a 6.5 Grendel and then hop on a .308 to see what I'm talking about.

I agree with Sniperdoc.  I think Grendel is fine for whitetails and hogs up to 300yards (my game limit) but for longer shots or bigger game I'd want a Creedmoor.

To me if you need more than a 6.5 grendel then I would just use a bolt,lever or something like the browning bar shorttrac.   I don't see the ar15 platform as much of a hunting gun, maybe the new small frames, but even with those your looking at 9 lbs at least ready to go.  My 308 bolt is 7 lbs ready to roll and my 300 wsm is 8.2 sand 3 rounds in the mag.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Grendel. I believe it is well placed, however there is no need to make such an extreme statement. My point is that are limitations / trade-offs.

While certainly there is overkill; to your point I would not take a .223 Rem. hunting for squirrel, it would blow it in half. I would select the right cartridge for the game; most likely a .22LR in that situation.

Envision yourself on a hunt in Colorado.You have been working hard for a week, tracking, moving though terrain,covering ground. You are nearing the end of your hunt and it has not been successful thus far. You want to fill your tag. You enter a clearing, on the other side is what you have been working so hard for. You range him and he is 500 yards. You only have your one rifle that does it all, your Grendel. Guess what? You are under gunned. You are going home empty handed, or you take that cheap shot and track that animal for the next day and when you find his half eaten carcass, you think back to this post and realize what I have been saying was right.

Now, all of the sudden, a mere 1 1/2 pounds doesn't seem so heavy after all. That would have been an easy shot with an AR 10 platform rifle. Wind hardly even has begun to factor in at that range.

With regard to your comment about hiking and climbing in to get within range, I have a lot of respect for that. If that is your modus operandi, then you are a better person than most. A lot of people that I have met, would take the cheap shot, and therefore, my entire premise is directed toward the latter mentality. If you would truly rather not take the shot until you are within your range limitation, then I offer no criticism toward you, or people of the same mindset.

A 16” 6.5 Grendel will put that 500y unicorn down, but you can always bring an 18” or 20” or...

Here are some ballistic tables for different rounds at different distances.

Boy there’s a whole lot of bigger better cartridges that have already played that scenario out! I should hope that the trigger wasn’t squeezed and a bow hunting type plan was implemented. And the next day a successful stalk was employed with bonus photos.

500yds is well within the ethical ballistic potential of the 129gr ABLR even from shorter barrels in the Grendel AR15, let alone the very lightweight Grendel bolt gun.

My 22" Grendel in Colorado mountains elevation actually matches .260 Remington sea level performance at 500yds using the exact same bullets.

At 22.5" Hg barometric pressure, 59° temp, pushing the 129gr ABLR at 2500fps from my 22" bolt gun Grendel, guess what my numbers are at 500yds?

1920fps 1056 ft-lbs 3.5 mils drop .8 mils (15") for 10mph full value wind

Even with a mild 5mph wind, the wind definitely comes into play at 5mph as that is 7.5" of wind drift with a projectile that has a Litz .561 G1 BC.

Most of your .308 hunting bullets are outside of that wind drift, even with a mild 5mph breeze, even with faster muzzle velocity.  You also get the pleasure of coming way off target under recoil so that you can't see where you made your hit, so you don't know if you need to make another shot or let it bleed out.

This is one of the biggest reasons for not recovering animals, because you may have gotten a good or decent hit, but when you fire again, it spooks them off.  Now you have to hump over from one ridge to another, and they may only be 50-75 yards away from where they were hit...now over the ridge, but you don't find them because of the time it took to get over there and lack of good reference points.

If you put a 6.5mm 129gr bonded ABLR into the vitals of a mule deer, elk, whatever at 1920fps impact speed, you're going to get immediate expansion, and deep, full penetration (enough so that we can only get recoveries when shooting hogs lengthwise), without losing much sight picture.

I can pick either one, but I would rather increase my hit potential and SA relative to what happens on the animal, while reducing my energy exertion in the mountains.  The little Howa Grendel bolt gun I have feels almost like a .22 LR, and even with a 2.5-10x target scope on it, it weighs in at 7lbs 8oz with a mag inside.  That's a factory gun with no weight reduction mods, recoil is negligible even with 129gr and a sporter profile barrel.

Even the 12" Pistol Grendel is a viable mountain stick when you look at 129gr ABLR performance.

In those same conditions (22.5" Hg), my 12" with a 2300fps mv does this at 450yds:

450 1800 fps 928 ft-lbs 3.6 mils drop 13.6" drift/.8 mils

That's more than plenty for mule deer, especially with a bullet like the ABLR.  Even with a little 1-4x GRSC scope on it, I was 1st-round hit on steel plates out to 500yds without even knowing my exact zero at a lower altitude (down at 6600ft) than where I saw mule deer last in hunting season (9300ft in Manti-La Sal).

Or you can miss tired and wound the animal with a .308, taking shots at distance with that cartridge most people have no business attempting because they usually have never shot past 100yds, but feel pressured to make a shot because the days are running low and they haven't filled their tag yet, just like last year.

Sounds a lot like magic beans.

Okay LRRP, I have taken some time to dig through your innumerable words, and educate myself on some of your fanciful claims.

In the end, when selecting a cartridge for suitable hunting, I value two things, expansion and penetration at the desired maximum range. There are, to your many points, some important factors that influence those two things. In my opinion, most importantly is velocity at impact, which is also influenced by many factors. I think we agree on these points.

Thus, I recognize your point that if you select amongst the available low drag bullets and push them to their expansion velocity, then shoot the Grendel at all the mule deer you can within that range, but know the expansion properties at the max distance you will shoot at. Because of your posts I believe I am much more informed about what is available for the Grendel than I had thought.

I also recognize your point about shooting / training better with low recoil. For sure, this is true, however most people are not going to the woods for a war. Most people are going to take one or two shots at most. Hog / yote hunting excepted. Still, to your point, the more training, the more prepared in the field. I concede.

Given all these considerations, carry on as one wishes, but as for me, a Creedmore would be a much better choice for mule deer country where I need not be concerned whether or not I am even close to the limits. I have no problem carrying the weight or managing the recoil.

I’ve often considered switching out my 6.8 SPC hunting rig for the Grendel. So that it would double as a long range precision rifle. I’ve killed deer and numerous hogs out to 300 yards with 120 SST out of a 18” 6.8

Safe to say the Grendel is good to 300 with SST?

So what is the .308 doing at 22.5" of Hg, at that same distance, with a nice sleek bullet?

In the weight of the average AR10 platform I’d say riding around in the truck.

The 6mm and 6.5mm Creedmoors are very good deer rounds.

Attached File


The DPMS G2 pattern is 4 oz heavier than the AR-15 with equivalent build.

I'm getting a lot of mileage out of this pic!

Absolutely DR-Fing-T. Recovered the bullet, too! Hornady Black.

Yes

My Grendel will have to do for a bit longer. The boss wants a new buggy and them things ain’t cheap. But the RPR rides along just fine in the Jeep. Though I’m starting to think it’s jinxed cause I never see a pig willing to be the first guinny pig. And I very seriously doubt if it will stop and ask “Sir is that the Grendel or the Creedmoor?”