Most of you know I've been bitten by the Grendel bug for a while now, and they have replicated like Gremlins in my arms room.

I always wanted an SBR, but didn't want to ask permission from unconstitutional continuing organized crime rackets to build or buy a decent compact AR15, so I stubbornly refused to apply for an SBR stamp and keep everything 16" or more.

These new pistol braces changes that, especially with the Maxim Defense and SB Tactical models.

After becoming familiar with real-world 6.5 Grendel ballistics and seeing the actual supersonic reach, I wondered if there was a short barrel/bullet combo that would stay supersonic out to 1000yds.  While getting close, most programs showed supersonic reach out to maybe 850yds from a 10.5" with 123gr Scenar or SMK (using about a .260 G7 BC), 875yds for an 11.5", and 900yds for a 12.5" barrel.  These are still very impressive numbers for a compact weapon that is PDW-sized, but still not breaking the 1000yd mark.

Nosler recently introduced the 130gr RDF with a G7 BC of .307 (.615 G1).  From a 12.5" Grendel Pistol or SBR, 1000yds supersonic reach is now possible with that bullet, according to the G7 drag model.

So now we're looking at an under-the-coat or inside the car gun that works extremely well for Close Quarters, then can be used to hunt medium game with, as well as shoot effectively out to long range with.  It has 1 mil of drift at 450yds, and 2 mils at 800yds, 2.8 at 1000yds, assuming a 2230fps mv with 1/8 twist.

Here is where I'm at currently.  I'm looking at some of the new compact, high factor variables right now for optics, either NXS8 or March 1-8 Mini.

TBAC Ultra 5 7.6oz Titanium suppressor has been in jail since September last year, which will go on the end.



Next phase will be some function-testing, followed by load development.  I'm thinking of just going straight into 130gr RDF from the get-go.

Once I have a decent load, I'll start smacking steel from 200-1000yds.

The goal is to do a video showing CQM drills, running up the stairs, then making 1st-round hits at 600-1000yds.

Update: Test firing and Long Range Work

Just got done running a 2-Day Long Range course and had the opportunity to test-fire and extend the range on this little pistol out to 800yds.

I was anticipating cycling issues since I'm in new territory with the Maxim PDW brace, mini buffer, and this barrel combo with CLGS, but it was flawless.

I tested first round hold-open with one round of 123gr American Gunner, locked back beautifully.

Then went through a mag while field-zeroing/holding at 200yds.  Everything ran fine, ejection is very positive at 4 o'clock, slings the brass out 15ft away.

Saturday, I dialed my reticle into POI at a rough 100yds, and proceeded to engage steel from 400yds to 800yds with at least a 90% hit rate, as I was figuring out the trajectory difference between this 5.56 GRSC reticle and the actual Grendel ballistics in that scope.

Here's a picture of Buffalo Canyon from a previous DM Course.  If you look at the top of the buttes on the left, then come down to the base of the cliff, that's where the 800yd steel is.



Out to 500yds, everything with the 5.56 M4 62gr reticle was dead-on center-punching the steel like it was easy.  For 800yds, I used 700 plus one dot below the 700yd line for repeated hits on the steel buffalo.

Recoil is noticeably more than a 16" or 18" lightweight Grendel, but it's a much smaller gun with a stiff recoil Maxim Defense spring that is very positive in returning the BCG into battery, love it.

No steel was safe within my view, and it only goes up to 4x.

Using 2 different Elander mags, a 17rd and 24rd, it felt like everything was tip-top and absolutely no hiccups.

I'm interested to see how this sucker is going to do with 107gr SMK and 130gr RDF, as well as 95gr Controlled Chaos.

Using the Hornady American Gunner, the wind drift is a lot more than a Scenar, maybe 1.4 mils for me at 500yds.

With 123gr Scenar, it's 2.5 mils at 1000yds at North Springs (6600ft elevation), supersonic to 1150yds, assuming a 2230fps mv.

This is what the GRSC reticle looks like:


The dot below 700 was dead-on for me at 800yds in the conditions we were in Saturday.

Awesome. Love it

Did not know existed.

In

That pistol is

Thanks for your contribution to the 6.5G community

I like it

Thanks for posting this info. Since the 224 Valkyrie hasn’t come into its prime yet, am seriously considering this caliber. Now that your showing a 12 inch barrel with the right bullet can go 1000 yards supersonic, am now going to look for an upper. Aero has some I looked at a while back so will start there. Glad I came across this thread. Thanks again.

Tagged.  Good shit man, keep it up

Crazy thing is that even a 10.5" Grendel has more muzzle energy than a 20" 5.56 NATO load, and only gets better from there.

Which powders are you planning for the RDF?

In for results

Since these barrels have 5REE rifling, which doesn't have as much depth as most 6.5mm barrels, I'm thinking I can go with some of the faster powders than I normally do.

I've noticed that some people with the same barrels have gotten less than normal mv with factory Hornady, so I might lean on H335, N530, and even 8208XBR or AR Comp, which I don't normally use with 123gr.

CFE223 has been my go-to powder for several years now with great results even at 1000yds from less than 18" barrel length.

CFE223 is pretty slow-burning for Grendel even with 123gr, so with this rifling, I'm thinking it won't be a good match.

At my altitudes, I'll have much better performance than the sea level predictions, which are still supersonic to 1000yds with 2200fps.

I'm looking at no less than 1150yds supersonic reach even with 2200fps mv down in the valley, and 1250yds up at 6600ft.

That's without suppressor boost as well.

Not very familiar with the 6.5 Grendel platform, but love the idea behind this build and will be following your progress.

Any idea how many FPS you'd lose dropping it down to 11.5 inches?  Still able to reach 1k comfortably at altitude?

I looked around for a 12.5 inch upper. No one sells it that way. Anyone know who sells one? Never put one together before but might give it a shot and build this one. For the barrel, would want a 5R rifling if possible. Could order a Aero 16 inch and have the barrel cut down. Did find one place selling a 11 inch but to short.

Sulzer firearms In Baton Rouge la sells a 12.5” upper

Thanks. Looks good. Just emailed them a couple questions.

How important is 5R or 5REE rifling in your opinion?

I currently have a 12.5" BA Hanson profile barrel, and was wondering if there would be enough difference to justify purchasing a 5REE barrel instead.

1" of barrel difference is going to be more barrel personality than length, in my experience.  I've had 16" AA Grendel barrels that shoot as fast or faster than most of my 18" and other 18" that I've built and tested with the same loads.

Once you get down to the shorter barrels, the rifling and exact bore dimensions will be a bigger factor, but they'll be in the same ballpark.  The BC really does the work with 6.5mm, so mv isn't as important as you would expect, with a few projectiles that require faster impact speeds for expansion as the exceptions.

For where I live, an 11.5" with the 130gr RDF will still be supersonic well past 1000yds using the G7 model even.

For 12.5" barrels, the fastest speeds I've seen listed for factory 123gr Scenar ammo from AA was 2330fps.

Lowest speeds I've seen so far for the 12" Faxon 5REE barrels with Hornady 123gr American Gunner are 2250fps.

10.5" barrels with 123gr are usually in the 2200fps region with 123gr SST factory ammo.

With 110gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos, we should see 2400fps from a 12-12.7" Grendel:

12.5" Grendel pushing 2400fps mv with 110gr CC:

175yds 2049fps 1026ft-lbs
200yds 2002fps 979 ft-lbs
300yds 1819fps 808 ft-lbs

There are some loads currently getting 2676 fps avg from a 16" AA barrel with the 110gr CC using CFE223.

The 110gr CC expands down to 1500fps according to Lehigh, so it's a very interesting option for hunting. G1 BC is .405

The Nosler 129gr ABLR (Accubond Long Range) expands down to 1300fps, and actual testing on hogs has shown violent, early expansion within the first inch of penetration, with full perforation through the hogs as the norm.

People have also used the 129gr ABLR from Lilja 11.5" Grendel barrels to hunt deer with DRT results so far.

That combo is unparalleled in the AR15 SBR/Pistol hunting package, given the .553 G1 BC of that projectile and its expansion envelope.

No reason to cut down when there are several barrel options in the 12-12.7" range, including Faxon, Ballistic Advantage, and Precision Firearms.

LaRue sells a complete upper with the 11.5" barrel and a permanently attached muzzle brake that is the attachment method for the SUURG suppressor, which is looking to be a very cool combination for suppressed.  For me, a pistol or SBR is best suppressed.

AA also sells complete 11" uppers for those wanting a complete upper.

I'll tell you once I run some ladders through the 12" 5REE, but I'm only expecting maybe 50-70fps more mv with faster powders and higher charge weights than normal since it doesn't build pressure as fast as conventional 6.5mm rifling.  The high BC projectiles with low expansion envelopes don't benefit much from those types of mv changes, but lighter bullets that are velocity dependent will a tad.

Thanks for all the info.

This thread is gonna end up costing me some money...

Just got an email back from Sulzer firearms about my questions. They are back logged due to short on BCG's. I like the match faxxon barrel on the upper they sell. Seems a good price for a complete upper. Not really fond of the hand guard but should look ok when my suppressor gets out of jail this summer. Am presuming I will need special mags? Dam, have to figure out what to sell to fund this project. Wifey won't be happy me buying another AR, especially when this country seems to be going full retard on semi autos. Just saw a news blimp on another city in Illinois banning AR's. Its getting real stupid these days. I do want that upper though.

I'd be kinda pissed off if I owned any 6.5 that coludn't make that shot.  Some dudes on youtube are making 1000yd shots with a $300 ruger american.  Right outta the box, hit the frame under the barrel with some sandpaper to make sure its really free floated.

I was seriously considering the savage MSR in 6.5CM but don’t want another AR10 frame semi. Wish I would have paid attention to this caliber before jumping into 300BO. Think it’s time to switch.

Just ordered the upper. Hoping it’s everything I’m hearing about.

@LRRPF52

Any predictions on how the 130RDF will perform compared to the 129 SST and ABLR both in external ballistics and terminal?

I was helping run a long range clinic up at BoomerShoot last year I think.

We had a young guy show up with a 6.5CM Ruger American with a SilencerCo suppressor on the end, some low-end scope, never shot past 100yds before.

We had another guy who had 2 free-floated chassis and high-end .308s with good optics, great ammo, suppressed as well.  He had been through the 5-day MagPul Long Range course with former USMC Scout Sniper who I have run into at other events.  Very good shooter.

The kid with no experience was ringing 12" plates at 700yds within an hour like it was easy, using factory Hornady 120gr ELD-M.

The experienced guy was left, right, left, right, left, right, wind was screwing him and I don't think he ever connected.  He was following my calls much better than the guy with the 6.5CM was, fast on the wind call, excellent follow-through, very disciplined.  (I spotted for both of them.)

I noticed a hit probability increase on targets immediately once I went to 6.5 Grendel, even in shorter barrels, since twist rate is tighter, recoil is much less, and projectiles average higher BCs.

Right now, a few people are doing some initial testing looking for good loads for the 130gr RDF in terms of accuracy.

I'll be doing the same in this 12" Grendel.  Since it's a BTHP target bullet with an extremely pointy ogive and the smallest meplat on the market for 6.5mm HP, I think it won't do well as a hunting bullet, and will probably be a slow killer without a heart or CNS shot.

The 129gr SST is murderous on game, as is the ABLR.  Advantage to the ABLR is you're pretty much always going to get a complete pass through since it's bonded.

I'm getting just over 2400fps from 17.6" and 18" barreled Grendels with the 129gr ABLR using CFE223, pressure-tested data in SAAMI chambers.

Assuming the same bore dimensions and chamber, cutting one of those barrels to 12" would give me 2238fps with the same load.

Since this group buy barrel has shallower rifling, I will have to up the charge or change powders to build pressure at the same rate.

I'm interested in how all the testing turns out. I'm hoping to work up a load that I can stick to for both range use and hunting with the SST or ABLR.

My daily use truck/fun/deer/coyote/HD gun is the 11" Lilja barrel that seems to like the 129 SST over XBR, but I also have 4 other Grendels to work up a load for, from a 16" JT barrel to a 24" Satern.

Unfortunately I'm on the hunt for a new chronograph now, some idiot 2 lanes over at the range managed to put a 9mm round through mine

What the hell?

Sorry, I'll edit a bit for format. This is why Arfcom before coffee is a bad idea

Get a LAbRadar. No worry of it getting shot. Love mine. Its worth every penny.

I'm torn between the Labradar and the magnetospeed v3

We need to sticky this.

Great concept and thanks for sharing!!

I really like the 10 inch range with a can, even if it's only good to 800 m(which is SICK distance BTW)

Magnetospeed may be light but may interfere with harmonics of the barrel for POI. Trust me, you will not regret getting the LabRadar. The blue tooth app is late coming out but it’s coming. Talked with them last month about it. I can have 5 preset distances up to 100 yards and read the speed of the bullet. Worth every penny.

I'd be rail mounting for the most part, the majority of my guns don't have enough exposed barrel to barrel mount anyway

My can is only 5" long, so I still have a short overall profile with as much barrel length as possible before getting too crazy.

I'm sitting here with a new upper and BCG right in front of me....

I don't know why I read your posts....

Bottom line is your going to cost me money...

Now I'm probably going to be reading 6.5 stuff all day.

Thanks.......Thanks a lot.

????

Can you post a pic with your short barrel and suppressor?

As soon as it gets out of jail....

Uhhhhhh subscribed. Please post test results or a link to said results here.
I've been reading more and more about the 6.5g in short barrels. I like what I'm reading.
So faxxon are the guys to talk to about 5r rifles 12.5" barrels? Do they run the 7.62x39 bolts?

When my SBA3 brace gets here I think this is what I'll be building .....

Grendel bolts, like 7.62x39 was supposed to be, but never engineered well other than Colt's work in the 1980s.

Grendel bolts are longer, with a deeper bolt face so the extractor can have enough meat in the lip for the thicker rims.

Biggest failure point you'll see with 7.62x39 is extractors when you run them in compressed high volume.

Thought you already had it. My sandman-s is 6.8 inches. In jail too. Hope to be here by july but could be september. I like your brace. Went to the brace site and read the atf letter. Couldn't determine if it was considered a brace or not the way it is worded. Is it?

Thanks for the explanation. I'm thinking of eventually jumping into the grendel game with a 12.5" and a sandman k.

Here is were I purchased my upper. Faxxon match barrel.
6.5 Upper

Oh Daaamn! Not a bad price either!
Thanks.

Oh look...time to plan another build...

Sigh. Someone give me bags of money.

If the optics weren't so expensive, both of my builds would be complete and probably a third for the girlfriend.

Stupid glass

Got shipping notice last night on more 129 SSTs, 129 ABLRs, and some 130 RDFs to try out too

So precision firearms doesn’t have any short barrel Lyija options but they do have a krieger 6.5g option. I was thinking of doing a 12.5” build. Any experience with that?

My only other experience is with my 18” LaRue Grendel that shoots lights out.

I’ve also thought about buying another LaRue kit and having adco cut barrel to 12.5-13.7” depending on recommendations for the mid length gas system.

You can spec the barrel lengths from PF.

LaRue sells an 11.5" SUURG kit as well.

Here is a place selling 12.5 uppers. Mine comes in tomorrow from them. Maybe they can sell you just the barrel.
Upper

I wish the air wasn't so thick here; I'm having trouble finding a load that will stay supersonic to 1000 out of a 16" Grendel.

It would be hilarious to show up at the range with an AR15 pistol that out performs the average 308 rifle shooting factory 168/175gr.