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Posted: 9/1/2019 10:37:59 PM EDT
I know there is probably a review for this here somewhere here, but here's my thoughts on it.
I just finished my 5th lower using the 5D Tactical Router Jig Pro and here's what I have learned. 1st off, the thing is just awesome, even my neighbor who is a journeyman toolmaker said "Somebody really knew what they were doing when they built that thing.". I like the fact that you only drill one hole to get ready for the milling operation.
They only trouble I've had with it was when my friends wife wanted to do an 80% lower and somehow tilted the router on the jig and grenaded the bit. Luckily she didn't do any anything to the lower that couldn't be fixed. I ordered two of the 3 flute replacements from 5D and two 4 flute bits from Amazon which were $10 a piece cheaper and work great Kodiak mill bit. Bit replacement was very easy and foolproof. I barely got the tool holder red and the old bit came right out and the new one dropped in easily, let cool and it is held perfectly in alignment. I don't know long the bits will last but the Kodiak cut the third lower just as nice as the first one.
I also bought a full face shield after trying just safety glasses, I feel like the face shield is a must, them chips. Uvex Bionic
I used a Makita router mainly because it was less expensive and I liked the depth adjustment better than the DeWalt, but it doesn't have a work light.
 I found out pretty quick that the vacuum port is not worth a crap. I did all of my milling outside in the driveway and I'm glad I did, the chips really fly everywhere. I laid down some cardboard to catch any WD-40 that dripped.
Link Posted: 9/1/2019 10:38:33 PM EDT
[#1]
If I didn't use my air nozzle to clear the chips after every pass, they would try to weld themselves to the end mill and then it would not cut. I didn't panic just stopped the router and used a utility knife to scrape the aluminum off of the bit and go back to work. I tried going full increments, but the finish looked better if I went in 1/2 increments.
I think the bearing in the base plate really makes a difference ensuring you don't get any chatter marks when you start making deeper passes
I never moved the router until it was up to full speed and after every pass the router must completely stopped or you're asking for trouble. I also checked all of the screws several times during the milling process just to ensure nothing was loose (my OCD) but everything was still tight.
The hardened steel inserts make it very easy to drill the Safety selector and trigger pin holes square just using a hand drill.
By the time I got to the fifth lower it was taking a little less than an hour to finish the lower. I could probably go faster but I think things could go south in a hurry if you get in too much of a rush.
This is the only jig I have used so I don't have anything to compare it to, but I can't imagine how it could be any easier or more precise for regular guy with just common hand tools. The only thing I would change would be to add a little more aluminum to the side where you make the depth adjustment just to make it easier to hold the router square to the depth guide.
So 5 stars to the guys at 5D Tactical for a great jig.
Link Posted: 9/1/2019 11:00:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Great post. Great review. And, spot on with my experience as well.

Well done.
Link Posted: 9/1/2019 11:39:31 PM EDT
[#3]
I have found if I roll paper towels in a tube shape and stuff them along each side of the lower it creates a wind tunnel and helps vacume most of the chips out.
Link Posted: 9/1/2019 11:48:20 PM EDT
[#4]
for the 308 application, the front pin for the pivot pin hole, the clevis pin included in my kit had a dia of .2750".  Too much play in the hole, the front of the 80% 308 lower can wiggle up and down, affect trigger pin hole locations, inconsistent depth milling.

I cut myself a replacement pin using 9/32" dia SS rod (measured .2800" dia actual), readily available, which provided a much tighter fit.

I got my jig a few years ago.  maybe they've fixed this by now.
Link Posted: 9/1/2019 11:52:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Any idea how long the bit holder lasts?  Meaning is it a part that needs replacing after X-amount of bits or is it able to be a one time purchase no matter the amount of heating/cooling to replace bits?
Link Posted: 9/2/2019 1:21:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Great review

I agree making half cuts produces a better finish. This was done with the original 5d jig and my other lowers showed similar results. After five lowers my mill bit showed some wear and I bought two extra bits.

Link Posted: 9/2/2019 11:27:56 AM EDT
[#7]
One other thing I should have mentioned, I used WD-40 as a cutting fluid, which while it worked okay was kind of messy to clean up (lots of straight Simple Green). Does anyone here use or know of a water based fluid that is cheap, effective and will clean up easier?
Link Posted: 9/2/2019 7:56:30 PM EDT
[#8]
According to my neighbor the toolmaker "thermal fit tool holders are pretty much state of the art for cnc machine work and should last many, many tool changes". He said as long as the bit is sharp the holder sees very little stress when in use and if you pull the worn out tool out straight and put the new one in straight with minimal twisting and turning he seems to think it should last basically forever.
Link Posted: 9/2/2019 8:11:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
According to my neighbor the toolmaker "thermal fit tool holders are pretty much state of the art for cnc machine work and should last many, many tool changes". He said as long as the bit is sharp the holder sees very little stress when in use and if you pull the worn out tool out straight and put the new one in straight with minimal twisting and turning he seems to think it should basically forever.
View Quote
My partner uses thermals on his CNC machines and although not last forever, they do last a long time if you take care of him and his shop is a high production shop, so he and his employees are changing bits quite often.
Link Posted: 9/3/2019 11:03:53 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:

They only trouble I've had with it was when my friends wife wanted to do an 80% lower and somehow tilted the router on the jig and grenaded the bit. Luckily she didn't do any anything to the lower that couldn't be fixed. I ordered two of the 3 flute replacements from 5D and two 4 flute bits from Amazon which were $10 a piece cheaper and work great
View Quote
ATF says that's illegal. Can't use other people's gear. At least one guy went to jail. But he was running an operation. Not friends
Link Posted: 9/4/2019 9:17:00 PM EDT
[#11]
This makes using a router jig much easier.You can keep both hands on the router to steady it during starts and stops.
Link Posted: 9/5/2019 1:19:09 PM EDT
[#12]
"This makes using a router jig much easier.You can keep both hands on the router to steady it during starts and stops."

That looks like it could be very useful.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 1:31:40 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One other thing I should have mentioned, I used WD-40 as a cutting fluid, which while it worked okay was kind of messy to clean up (lots of straight Simple Green). Does anyone here use or know of a water based fluid that is cheap, effective and will clean up easier?
View Quote
I just use brake cleaner for mine, then after I use aluminum black on the FCG pocket I just spray CLP on the lower and wipe the excess.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 5:18:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have found if I roll paper towels in a tube shape and stuff them along each side of the lower it creates a wind tunnel and helps vacume most of the chips out.
View Quote
Can you post a pic of what this looks like?
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 6:42:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Great review, very insightful. Thanks for posting!

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
ATF says that's illegal. Can't use other people's gear. At least one guy went to jail. But he was running an operation. Not friends
View Quote
Are you sure you have that right? I could see them not liking it if you used your jig to manufacture a lower for some else, but it shouldn’t matter what tools you use to manufacturer a lower for your own personal use. That would mean if you borrow a drill from a neighbor to use with your own jig, you’d be violating some ATF regulation. I’m not sure people still do it, but that would also make all those AK build parties illegal, since people share the jigs and tools.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 7:12:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Great review, very insightful. Thanks for posting!

Are you sure you have that right? I could see them not liking it if you used your jig to manufacture a lower for some else, but it shouldn’t matter what tools you use to manufacturer a lower for your own personal use. That would mean if you borrow a drill from a neighbor to use with your own jig, you’d be violating some ATF regulation. I’m not sure people still do it, but that would also make all those AK build parties illegal, since people share the jigs and tools.
View Quote
Like all the ATF stuff I have ever read I have never been able to reach a 100% conclusion  on their intent. Here's a link to one of their publications. Long read to get the last section that deals with the question.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing/download
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 9:45:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 10:39:03 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Like all the ATF stuff I have ever read I have never been able to reach a 100% conclusion  on their intent. Here's a like to one of their publications. Long read to get the last section that deals with the question.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing/download
View Quote
That’s actually one of the more straightforward government documents I’ve read - and it’s very clear that the ATF wrote it to apply to businesses - dealers or “unlicensed machine shops” that are performing services - or allowing access to their equipment - in exchange for some sort of compensation. The document repeatedly makes that point. For example:

“the term ‘engaged in the business’ means, as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, ‘a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.’”

“An FFL or unlicensed machine shop may also desire to make available its machinery (e.g., a computer numeric control or “CNC” machine), tools, or equipment to individuals... The FFL or unlicensed machine shop would typically charge a fee for such activity, or receive some other form of compensation or benefit.”

Part of the document is also obviously intended to prevent the financial loss to the government from dealers attempting to avoid the fees associated with a manufacturing license:

“A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements under the GCA simply by allowing individuals to initiate or manipulate a CNC machine, or to use machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion or control...”

The clear and repeated use of the term “business” indicates what they are targeting.

Has there actually been a case where an individual, who is not engaged in a business, has been charged / prosecuted for loaning gunsmithing tools to another individual, has a representative of the ATF said that would be prosecutable, or is this just people “assuming” that’s how the document could be interpreted?

@PursuitSS - I totally get the issue with ATF interpretation and the risks / expenses of a court case. I have no interest in loaning or borrowing tools for finishing 80% lowers. This document just seems pretty straightforward to me, so I’m curious what generated the concern about it applying to private individuals who are not engaged in a business. I’ll be happy to continue the discussion in a more appropriate thread.
Link Posted: 9/17/2019 4:38:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

ATF says that's illegal. Can't use other people's gear. At least one guy went to jail. But he was running an operation. Not friends
View Quote
These discussions always devolve into a bunch of horseshit because some Super Citizen takes it upon themselves to give a bunch of strangers on the internet legal advice no one was asking for. If you can’t post a pic of your bar card or ATF badge howabout shutting the F up and letting other adults live their lives.
Link Posted: 9/17/2019 10:08:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
These discussions always devolve into a bunch of horseshit because some Super Citizen takes it upon themselves to give a bunch of strangers on the internet legal advice no one was asking for. If you can’t post a pic of your bar card or ATF badge howabout shutting the F up and letting other adults live their lives.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

ATF says that's illegal. Can't use other people's gear. At least one guy went to jail. But he was running an operation. Not friends
These discussions always devolve into a bunch of horseshit because some Super Citizen takes it upon themselves to give a bunch of strangers on the internet legal advice no one was asking for. If you can’t post a pic of your bar card or ATF badge howabout shutting the F up and letting other adults live their lives.
Why don't you hang out in a VA hospital parking lot for a while and think about what an unpleasant person you are.
Link Posted: 9/17/2019 11:53:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 9/18/2019 12:15:10 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One other thing I should have mentioned, I used WD-40 as a cutting fluid, which while it worked okay was kind of messy to clean up (lots of straight Simple Green). Does anyone here use or know of a water based fluid that is cheap, effective and will clean up easier?
View Quote
A-9

I use a nose spray bottle without the tube to coat (bottle upside down) the edge of the receiver fire control cavity after each jig level pass.  Keeps down flying chips and leaves the surface with a coating that's as shiny two months after the milling as the minute it was done.
Link Posted: 9/18/2019 12:27:08 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

ATF says that's illegal. Can't use other people's gear. At least one guy went to jail. But he was running an operation. Not friends
View Quote
Nope
Link Posted: 10/16/2019 10:21:04 AM EDT
[#24]
I see why the ATF is sensitive about borrowing tools or using someone else's shop.  This has been discussed in other places here, but I thought it was relevant to this thread.  This guy was having customers (including felons) "manufacture" their own lowers by pushing the start button on his CNC that would execute the program to finishing an 80% lower.

CNN: Feds to drop weapons charges to protect gun control efforts
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