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Posted: 4/28/2023 3:40:39 PM EDT
This is the first I've heard of it.
 400 LEGEND Gel Test! Hornady 175gn Critical Duty Projectile Loaded Up To 400 POWER!?? |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 4:06:41 PM EDT
[#1]
.450 bushmaster is more better.
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Posted: 4/30/2023 12:04:20 AM EDT
[#2]
How is 450 BM better?
Saw the announcement the other day. My son and I thought a year or so ago after we put together a 350 Legend that it would be cool to upscale it to 10mm (.40 cal) for a little more thump, but I don't have the time or $$$ to invest in a wildcat...but voila, Winchester did what we were thinking. It sits between 350L and 450BM in terms of power. Will be interesting to see how popular it gets. So many said 350L would die in a year, but my how they've been proven wrong. Heck, even S&W is now chambering their X-frame revolvers in 350L. |
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Posted: 4/30/2023 12:14:20 AM EDT
[#3]
I wonder if one could load 10mm projectiles onto it. They seem to both be .4005" diameter heads.
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Posted: 4/30/2023 10:08:26 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if one could load 10mm projectiles onto it. They seem to both be .4005" diameter heads. That's exactly what it uses, but I'm assuming they will be making more conical bullets for better feeding like they did with 350 Legend. |
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Posted: 4/30/2023 10:19:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Holding out for the 430 Legend
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Posted: 4/30/2023 5:41:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is 450 BM better? Saw the announcement the other day. My son and I thought a year or so ago after we put together a 350 Legend that it would be cool to upscale it to 10mm (.40 cal) for a little more thump, but I don't have the time or $$$ to invest in a wildcat...but voila, Winchester did what we were thinking. It sits between 350L and 450BM in terms of power. Will be interesting to see how popular it gets. So many said 350L would die in a year, but my how they've been proven wrong. Heck, even S&W is now chambering their X-frame revolvers in 350L. I may be simple minded (my wife will chime in, certainly), but a larger diameter projectile is better at the distances these cartridges are intended for. I’ve been killing deer with a 450 for 10 years and don’t see where there is anything I’d rather use on whitetails at 25-150 yards (my average shot is 45). We started reloading our 450’s with 250gr XTP’s and they result in DRT or VERY minimal tracking (25-50yds). However, I’m interested in anything new and if I can push a 180gr .40 at higher velocities, then it might be a winner. ETA: When I had my first 450BM (20” rifle gas), I was told (by EVERYONE) I needed to buy a special muzzle break and buttpad if I wanted to shoot the thing. My 12-year old son shot the rifle and said “…well that’s it…?” I realized then the recoil was manageable at worst. The recoil on a 450 is more than a .556, but for anyone used to shooting bullets at deer, it was underwhelming. I’m glad to see there are other options (very glad), but the 450 is a killer and I’ve had a hard time figuwhy it isn’t the first choice for anyone (to include my 110# wife mentioned earlier). |
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Posted: 4/30/2023 8:55:37 PM EDT
[#7]
One of the biggest benefits I see is you can still double stack mags and get more capacity. It looks like it's the biggest bore you can get while still retaining a double stack. Any larger and you are into single stack territory.
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Posted: 4/30/2023 9:15:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the biggest benefits I see is you can still double stack mags and get more capacity. It looks like it's the biggest bore you can get while still retaining a double stack. Any larger and you are into single stack territory. It's gotta be close to the edge. I'm interested to see how it shakes out and if we get some dedicated mags. |
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Posted: 4/30/2023 9:56:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Kinda interested in it, will have to see who is making barrels and brass availability and reloading dies
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Posted: 5/1/2023 12:50:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I may be simple minded (my wife will chime in, certainly), but a larger diameter projectile is better at the distances these cartridges are intended for. I’ve been killing deer with a 450 for 10 years and don’t see where there is anything I’d rather use on whitetails at 25-150 yards (my average shot is 45). We started reloading our 450’s with 250gr XTP’s and they result in DRT or VERY minimal tracking (25-50yds). However, I’m interested in anything new and if I can push a 180gr .40 at higher velocities, then it might be a winner. ETA: When I had my first 450BM (20” rifle gas), I was told (by EVERYONE) I needed to buy a special muzzle break and buttpad if I wanted to shoot the thing. My 12-year old son shot the rifle and said “…well that’s it…?” I realized then the recoil was manageable at worst. The recoil on a 450 is more than a .556, but for anyone used to shooting bullets at deer, it was underwhelming. I’m glad to see there are other options (very glad), but the 450 is a killer and I’ve had a hard time figuwhy it isn’t the first choice for anyone (to include my 110# wife mentioned earlier). Well, I understand the thinking here, but we are limited to case length in the AR. At some point, you just can't shove that fat heavy bullet much faster, so a lighter slightly smaller diameter one will have a speed advantage. I believe the general wisdom that it takes about 2,000 FPS to start getting hydrostatic shock, which can and will make a much bigger wound channel. I think starting with the 350L, now the 400, the 458 SOCOM and even the 50 Beowulf, I doubt a pig or a deer can tell much of a difference. Arguably, the 350L might have a slight advantage in range/flatter shooting because of its higher velocity. The 45-50 cal cartridges are potato lobbers to be sure. |
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Posted: 5/1/2023 9:56:07 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the biggest benefits I see is you can still double stack mags and get more capacity. It looks like it's the biggest bore you can get while still retaining a double stack. Any larger and you are into single stack territory. While I get what you are saying, most people who are in the market for something like this are in it for hunting and capacity isn't a huge factor in deer gun. Perhaps for feral pigs it would prove advantageous, but many states have restrictions on capacity for big game rifles as well. I have been thinking of a wildcat in 44 caliber using 308 brass for the parent. Maybe next??? 
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Posted: 5/1/2023 10:23:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While I get what you are saying, most people who are in the market for something like this are in it for hunting and capacity isn't a huge factor in deer gun. Perhaps for feral pigs it would prove advantageous, but many states have restrictions on capacity for big game rifles as well. I have been thinking of a wildcat in 44 caliber using 308 brass for the parent. Maybe next??? Like 44 AMP/Automag? Pretty sure I’ve seen a 444 AR10 somewhere but the case length prevents it from being used to hunt in some places. I think Tromix did. 44 Socom in testing along with a bunch of others. |
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Posted: 5/1/2023 1:49:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like 44 AMP/Automag? Pretty sure I’ve seen a 444 AR10 somewhere but the case length prevents it from being used to hunt in some places. I think Tromix did. 44 Socom in testing along with a bunch of others. Was thinking 308 or '06 case cut down far enough to accommodate a 240+ish bullet in .429 caliber and fit in an AR-15 magwell. I believe it would require reaming, but if someone were to popularize it brass could be made to propper spec. |
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Posted: 5/1/2023 2:41:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was thinking 308 or '06 case cut down far enough to accommodate a 240+ish bullet in .429 caliber and fit in an AR-15 magwell. I believe it would require reaming, but if someone were to popularize it brass could be made to propper spec. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Like 44 AMP/Automag? Pretty sure I’ve seen a 444 AR10 somewhere but the case length prevents it from being used to hunt in some places. I think Tromix did. 44 Socom in testing along with a bunch of others. Was thinking 308 or '06 case cut down far enough to accommodate a 240+ish bullet in .429 caliber and fit in an AR-15 magwell. I believe it would require reaming, but if someone were to popularize it brass could be made to propper spec. 44 Automag is pretty close. But there’s always room for more. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 7:11:52 AM EDT
[#15]
Tromix did one upper in .44 Fury, which didn't gain much traction. I think it was necked down from .458 Socom, so straight-wall needs are not going to be met. There are some other promising chamberings that utilize .429 projectiles, though...
Archived .44 Thumper Thread As to the .400, I wonder how they will stack and feed in wide-body LWRC Six8 receivers and Magpul magazines made for the 6.8 Jordanian contracts. Also, has anyone seen how big-bore cartuchos feed from the magazines made for the menagerie of Turkish .410 uppers? Those things are made for straight-bodied shells (with a rim, even), and fit in standard mag wells... Best, JBR |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 9:14:53 AM EDT
[#16]
The 400 Legend case is based off a 6.8 SPC. Since there are staggered mags for 6.8, they "should" work with 400 L and have nearly identical capacity.
One possible fly in the soup is if there is just a single feedramp in the barrel extension. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 12:27:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 400 Legend case is based off a 6.8 SPC. Since there are staggered mags for 6.8, they "should" work with 400 L and have nearly identical capacity. One possible fly in the soup is if there is just a single feedramp in the barrel extension. Isn’t it a bigger diameter than 6.8? I know we’ve been through this but I can’t remember. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 12:51:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn’t it a bigger diameter than 6.8? I know we’ve been through this but I can’t remember. It has the same case head diameter, and uses the same bolt face, but it is recessed like the 450 BM and 350 L. The body diameter of the 400 L is larger than the 6.8 SPC |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:25:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has the same case head diameter, and uses the same bolt face, but it is recessed like the 450 BM and 350 L. The body diameter of the 400 L is larger than the 6.8 SPC Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Isn’t it a bigger diameter than 6.8? I know we’ve been through this but I can’t remember. It has the same case head diameter, and uses the same bolt face, but it is recessed like the 450 BM and 350 L. The body diameter of the 400 L is larger than the 6.8 SPC That’s what I thought. So not based on 6.8. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 3:46:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s what I thought. So not based on 6.8. Just the bolt face in common. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 11:23:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has the same case head diameter, and uses the same bolt face, but it is recessed like the 450 BM and 350 L. The body diameter of the 400 L is larger than the 6.8 SPC So, it's like the 50 Beowulf (larger case diameter than rim diameter and uses same bolt as grendel)? |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 1:08:39 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, it's like the 50 Beowulf (larger case diameter than rim diameter and uses same bolt as grendel)? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It has the same case head diameter, and uses the same bolt face, but it is recessed like the 450 BM and 350 L. The body diameter of the 400 L is larger than the 6.8 SPC So, it's like the 50 Beowulf (larger case diameter than rim diameter and uses same bolt as grendel)? Yes. It's called a rebated rim and there are lots of cartridges that use it. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 1:46:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Tag. Curious about bullet selection on this one.
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:18:58 PM EDT
[#24]
I found the Hornady 200 gr. .400 muzzleloader bullet to not only shoot with very good accuracy but also gave excellent penetration and expansion up to 2400 fps in my .400 SOCOM. I also had good results with 165 gr. Hornady .400 XTP but expansion was rapid and penetration was not near as deep.
I see no reason those bullets would not work equally well in the Legend. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 3:06:09 PM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 5/7/2023 3:25:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. It's called a rebated rim and there are lots of cartridges that use it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It has the same case head diameter, and uses the same bolt face, but it is recessed like the 450 BM and 350 L. The body diameter of the 400 L is larger than the 6.8 SPC So, it's like the 50 Beowulf (larger case diameter than rim diameter and uses same bolt as grendel)? Yes. It's called a rebated rim and there are lots of cartridges that use it. Thank you. |
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Posted: 5/9/2023 8:46:25 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the biggest benefits I see is you can still double stack mags and get more capacity. It looks like it's the biggest bore you can get while still retaining a double stack. Any larger and you are into single stack territory. In my personal experience building big bore AR's, it can be problematic feeding big bore straight wall cartridges from a double stack AR-15 magazine. Unfortunately in the vid, the guy doesn't load up the mag for a big dump. Also when you rebate the case rim, and run it in an AR-15, you can have rim bind problems with the extractor binding in the case groove as it rolls out over the extractor nose during ejection. However, with the proper rim/groove cut geometry you can get around this issue. Tony Rumore Tromix |
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Posted: 6/10/2023 7:05:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my personal experience building big bore AR's, it can be problematic feeding big bore straight wall cartridges from a double stack AR-15 magazine. Unfortunately in the vid, the guy doesn't load up the mag for a big dump. Also when you rebate the case rim, and run it in an AR-15, you can have rim bind problems with the extractor binding in the case groove as it rolls out over the extractor nose during ejection. However, with the proper rim/groove cut geometry you can get around this issue. Tony Rumore Tromix Rough back of the napkin cartridge drawings; If you take the most successful straight wall cartridge capable of reliable FA operation, the .30 Carbine, and use it's taper on a .355 bullet, run it out to a AR15 OAL, you end up close to the 6.8SPC's 0.440 case head size. Now, whether or not that much taper would be allowed by States that require straight walled cartridges, is debatable. But running less taper, is always going to be finicky in a semi auto. |
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Posted: 6/10/2023 8:21:17 PM EDT
[#29]
This is a very interesting cartridge, even outside of state restrictions.
Could really put the hurt on anything at shorter distances... |
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Posted: 6/11/2023 11:03:33 AM EDT
[#30]
Now, whether or not that much taper would be allowed by States that require straight walled cartridges, is debatable. I do not know of any state that dictates both parallel and straight when it comes to these reg's. Some do limit case length, minumum and/or maximum. The only straightwall cases that are also parallel that I know of are your typical revolver cartridges. Even the 45/70 has some taper to it, and the 350L was designed purely for straightwall hunting restrictions. |
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Posted: 6/12/2023 1:45:04 AM EDT
[#31]
I'd think that unless it has a glaringly obvious taper that some political wanker that knows zero about guns and ammo (but I'm being redundant there) might screech about, the big concern is a bottleneck. No bottleneck and it should pass muster. If you made a case with that much taper, it probably wouldn't work well or at all anyway. Besides, the regs simply state "straight wall", it doesn't have any verbage concerning how parallel opposing sides have to be.
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Posted: 6/12/2023 10:10:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Admittedly I have not read every sentence of every state law that requires "straight walled cases" for hunting, but the couple I have read, they say nothing about the case walls needing to be parallel. You can have a straight case wall and the walls not be parallel. Just because the case has a taper does not mean the case walls cannot be straight. Think of two straight lines that eventually intersect. They can be perfectly straight in every since of the word but still intersect because they are not parallel. Even the .30 Carbine, as mentioned earlier, are straight walled, only they are not parallel.
I think too many people try to expand the definition of some words way too much giving them way too broad a definition all the while while taking other words way too literal, such as in the case of a vertical grip being 89* instead of 90*, so therefore it is not a vertical grip, but I digress. I do not think it is any kind of stretch of the imagination or bending of the laws to say that when the DNR says the case walls must be straight, they are talking about no shoulder, not that the case walls must be parallel and cannot be tapered. If it did, they would say they must be parallel because they are either parallel or they are not, there is no almost parallel so this one is OK, and that one is not as close to being parallel so it is illegal. Sort of like being just a little pregnant. They say straight. Don't put words in the law that are not really there. |
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Posted: 6/12/2023 1:57:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Fair enough on not reading into it too much.
So that brings up the question why these developers keep going with cases with the walls so parallel, that they aren't duty/service reliable in semiautos. BTW: I have a 350L AR. I built it for use in Arizona's rim country. It works good for that. 35 caliber lever guns are extremely popular here, for that use. I wish someone would make a round suited for more than just hunting. |
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Posted: 6/13/2023 11:38:20 PM EDT
[#34]
They do, and there are plenty...or are you looking for a NEW round that falls into that category?
Speaking of the 350L, I built one too a couple years ago and love it. It had an interesting and controversial beginning though. A lot of folks complained about it being a 9mm (.355). Some tried (and still try) to squeeze .357 bullets into it, probably because SAAMI states caliber as ".357 -.003", but just read some forums about the issues people have with pressure trying .357 bullets. They usually get somewhere toward the middle of a min-max load range and start having pressure signs. It just doesn't work with .357 bullets. In fact, all commercial loads for it use .355 bullets. Depending on what you read, this controversy was either an error in the development reamer, or they intentionally made it .355, so anyone's guess as to the reason why it is .355. Early on, I believe it was Montana that outlawed it for straight wall hunting because it didn't meet the .357 diameter requirement, but they have since rescinded that and it is now legal to hunt with. I'm about to hit the submit button on a 12.7x42 upper just because I want one of those "50 caliber AR-15's" that Sheila Jackson Lee cried about as a range toy, but after that, I'd like to build a pistol length upper for the 350L with a 1:10 twist and load up some Maker Bullets 280 grain all coppers and send them through my suppressor. That ought to be a fun one, kinda of a bigger brother to 300 Blackout. I've seen those 280's at sub speeds and good lord, they look a fist they expand so big. |
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Posted: 6/14/2023 1:04:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Fun fact, 458 Win Mag is legal for deer in Ohio. Straight wall case.
The whole straight wall thing was an evolution from the initial allowance of specific pistol caliber rifles. 357,44,45 Colt, and here even 45-70 because it was a factory produced TC Contender offering. The initial list was caliber specific. After a few years and huge swing away from slug guns to rifles and no increase in accidents the DNR got enough pressure to rewrite the rules to straight wall. That was about the time frame where 450 BM was gaining popularity. In our game law booklet it has a crude drawing of a ubiquitous 44/45 saying approved and a drawing of a 30-30 or 35 rem with the red line through it. Our local game warden has said it’s truly that simple if he has to write a ticket. |
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Posted: 6/14/2023 2:44:22 PM EDT
[#36]
oooops
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Posted: 6/14/2023 2:52:23 PM EDT
[#37]
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/For-you-10mm-guys-400-Legend/42-541977/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Now-there-s-the-400-Legend/5-2637551/ For those trying to argue that straightwall = parallel, #1 no cartridge is made that way. #2, at least one states regulations offer specifications for straightwall and also bottleneck cases, so it's obvious that is the distinction (that straightwall isn't bottleneck). I don't think we would have manufacturers introducing new cartridges specifically to meet these requirements if they didn't meet the requirements. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 1:42:56 PM EDT
[#38]
What is the shortest barrel that can be used without a big fireball? For those invested in 40 S&W/10mm, this cartridge may be sweet to reload for.
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Posted: 6/19/2023 1:58:42 AM EDT
[#39]
Depends on the powder.
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Posted: 6/26/2023 7:06:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Any reload date for this beast yet? Been looking but finding anything.
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Posted: 6/27/2023 1:29:53 AM EDT
[#41]
Not yet, and no rifles yet either. Winchester doesn't officially start shipping the ammo until next month. I would guess that rifles will follow very shortly, if not right at the beginning of July. Just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if BCA is the first to drop an upper.
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Posted: 6/29/2023 11:06:32 PM EDT
[#42]
I was about to ream my barrel for my custom 10 mm magnum build. Now I'm considering doing it in 400 legend instead and getting just a bit more thump to it. I can buy a 400 legend reamer for less than I can get a quality 400 legend barrel!
Hopefully some better 400 cal rifle bullet options will become available! Although I have a few hundred 200 gr XTP I was going to use with the 10 mag. |
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Posted: 7/1/2023 11:13:26 AM EDT
[#43]
Two choices, go wildcat, or wait for a manufacturer to mainstream and SAAMI something in .40/10mm. I dunno if 400 Legend will start a trend for that caliber or not, or if 400 will even become popular and stick around. If 350L is any indication, it very well might, but only time will tell.
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