(edit)  It has been confirmed by CMMG that this is not the case.  The charging handle is still included even if you choose the 'No Bolt Group' option.  It looks like it was just an error on your order.

I purchased a .22 conversion kit many years ago to shoot cheap .22 long rifle ammo in my fighting rifles to lessen the expenditure per round of practice.  The conversion kit plus the BlackDog magazines allowed for some really good practice that duplicates very closely running my full powered M4.  However - I have had a hankering for quite a while now to put together a dedicated M4-22.  This article will chronicle that effort as well as graphically indicate the VAST difference in .22 long rifle ammo.

I made the decision to build a dedicated M4-22 after going through a few boxes and found I had more spare AR parts than I thought I did.  I was able to assemble a complete lower, with a MagPul MIAD grip and a VLTOR stock - which is my personal preference when it comes to stocks.  The cheek weld with the VLTOR is superior to other designs for my face.  I also had a spare upper receiver that was complete except for the barrel/handguards.  So - I purchased a CMMG .22 barrel from Brownells, along with the DPMS free float handguard.  I had purchased a Primary Arms 1x4 scope along with a PEPR mount (used off of AR15.com) to prove the concept to myself on my full power M4 – and had since purchased a Vortex Viper PST 1x4 scope to mount it to my M4.  So…I had the PA 1x4 that was looking for a rifle.  In my opinion the PA scope is perfect for a .22 lr.

After getting the barrel and free float handguards – I put them all together – and added an A2 type flash suppressor on the already threaded muzzle.  Now it was time to shoot it!

Here are the obligatory pictures of the complete rifle.  I have not – nor will I – attach any BUIS (Back-Up-Iron-Sights) – as this is a TOY – not a tool.  The PEPR mount on my M4-22 is not quick attach/detach – so I can’t remove it in a hurry anyway.  (The PEPR mount on my full power M4 *is* quick attach/detach – and is equipped with BUIS – as it is one of my tools.)  I wanted to keep the capital expenditure as low as possible on this project – because it is a toy and I recognize it as such.



So I eagerly went to the range to begin sighting it in.  I started at 7 yards – because there were no iron sights to begin with – and even if there were the PA scope doesn’t co-witness – so starting at 7 was to ensure I was going to at least be on paper at 25 meters.  Much to my surprise – I could have started at 25 yards!  I didn’t even adjust the scope at 7 yards – as the impact was about 2” low – but pretty much centered with regards to windage.  

So I moved back to 25 yds.  This would be my “zero” distance for my M4-22.  (On my full size M4 I zero it at 50 yards and verify at 200 yards.)  I was shooting Federal Bulk Pack from Walmart.  The groups I was getting at 25 yards were nothing to write home about – but good enough to site in the scope.  Well – the groups were not good enough to the point that I was disappointed with the rifle/myself.  My eyes are getting older (along with the rest of me) and are not what they used to be.  I used to have 20/6 vision – now I have closer to 20/20 with an astigmatism that is getting worse with age.  I used to be able to see red dots quite clearly – now they are starting to “starburst” – hence my quest for regular optics.  I also need reading glasses to see anything clearly that is closer than a couple of feet.  This makes using iron sights challenging.  But enough about the aging thing – suffice it to say that getting old sucks.

So anyway I figured the poor shooting performance was either me – or the barrel.  I didn’t consider that the ammo would make a very big difference at all.  Boy was I wrong.  However after thread – I came to the conclusion that maybe ammo was a contributing factor.  So – I purchased some different kinds of .22 lr ammo and went to the range.  I was astounded with what I found.

I started off with CCI Blazer ammo.  I shot three 10 shot groups at 25 yards.   Here they are:


The three groups measured 0.838”, 0.888” and 0.804” respectively.  This was better performance than I had with Federal Bulk Pack – so I was pleasantly surprised.

Next I shot Winchester 333 Bulk Pack.  Again I shot three 10 round groups at 25 yards (which is my SOP when sighting in a rifle and was followed with all ammunition in this test).


The three groups measured 0.810”, 1.267” and 1.435”.  The fliers were just that – FLIERS.  They were not the result of a flinch, nor were they a pulled shot.  I had the cross hairs centered on target and had a surprise break.  I “called the shot” in the white circle – but the bullet impacted out of it.  This is almost exactly the same performance I experienced with the Fed Bulk Pack.

The third ammo I tried was Winchester SuperX.


These are more like “patterns” instead of groups.  The first pattern 2.261”, 1.992” and 2.003”.  HORRIBLE ammo combination with this particular rifle.

The fourth ammo was Federal Automatch.


This ammo causes fliers with my particular rifle.  The groups are 2.092”, 2.574” and 2.063”.  This had somewhat better patterns than the SuperX – it would give somewhat decent groups that would be totally ruined by fliers.


The fifth ammo was Winchester Subsonic.

This shot some pretty good groups.  The sizes are 1.016”, 0.593” and 0.837”.  Not bad at all – no real fliers.

Sixth ammo was CCI Green Tag target grade ammunition.


These were the best groups of the day so far.  They measure 0.968”, 1.129” and 0.691”.

Seventh group was CCI Mini-mag.  I saved this ammo for last – because I thought it would be among the worst.  I don’t have any reason for feeling that way – I have never shot any Mini-mags for groups before.  To say I was surprised would be an understatement.  These produced the best groups of all.


These groups measured 0.575”, 0.610” and 0.597”.

I had one last target in my range bag – so I decided I would shoot two more ten shot groups with each of the best five types of ammo.


First group was CCI Blazer – with a 0.985” and 1.319”.
Second was Winchester 333 with a 1.194” and 1.281”.
Third was Winchester Subsonic 0.593” and 0.652”.
Fourth was CCI Mini-mag with 0.4312” and 0.497”.
Fifth was CCI Green Tag with 0.593” and 0.708”.

The moral of this whole story is – if you are looking for small groups out of your .22 rifle – try as many different types of .22 ammo as you can!  The largest group was over 2 ½” (2.574”) – and my smallest group was 0.412”. Same shooter (me), same rifle (my M4-22), same day, same range, same EVERYTHING.  The ONLY thing that was different was the ammunition type.

Questions/comments?

My next quest will be to duplicate this test with my Ruger 10/22 and my Ruger Mk II handgun.

cheers

tire iron

tire_iron: Man, that was a fantastic range report. Thank You very much for all your effort.....

Very nice Range Report. Thanks.
Lots to be said about what ammo your particular rifle likes. I have a 20" CMMG that will shoot 1" at 50 yards with Fed Bulk. My CMMG M4 LE shooting the same round looks like a shotgun pattern.
Dave N

Thanks gents - it was the effort I saw in this thread that lead me to do what I did.  I thought I would just "give back" so to speak.

cheers

tire iron

22's Taken To A New Level, Atleast For Me..... Spec

Note: The following tests were all done using an unmodified CMMG Stainless Steel Bolt Assembly and
available Full Auto parts.... The worked great together. CMMG promised to send their Full Auto Parts for
testing as soon as they become available.... Should be sometime in November

Clint Beyer sent a 5" and a 7.5" 1:9 twist barrel for evaluation... I built with parts I had on hand and a few
that I picked up from Ron. The builds turned out nice but I didn't have much laying around for optics. I
did grab an EOTech 511 off a Bushmaster. We found that with or without, Clint's Barrels were consistent
enough, shooting with or without it was good enough for the steel targets we had available at various ranges.



This is a video I did after we'd shot for a while. The mess we made, some shots of the 22 uppers
and the range, showing the targets at various distances... We of course cleaned up when we were done.
I had BDM's Gen III Mags and X-Form mags and the new steel feed lip magazine from CMMG. Only
mag failure was the feed lips spread on one of the BDM Gen III's. We tried shooting both the uppers I
mentioned and an 8", 1:16" twist barrel Clint made for me some time back. The 2 longer barrels need
some tweaking to work full auto. I ended up shooting them Semi as they were not tripping the hammer
in Full Auto.. Ron has some thoughts on that but we were limited in time. He had pistol caliber centerfire
uppers to run before shipping. He runs all the uppers he builds to insure perfect function.




The day Friday was overcast with a light breeze. The perfect day for shooting here in Florida. Ron is now
a Class 2 / 7 manufacturer so we had full auto capability...

The next couple videos show the fun we had with the 5", We fired Federal Bulk mainly so there were a few
duds and a few light loads that failed to cycle the bolt. for he most part the upper functioned perfect. At the end
of the day, we used some Winchester 555 and it worked flawlessly.... The videos are the first time each of us fired
the 5" upper. It was the first upper we tried, early in the morning....

Note: I need to lose some of those keys. Need to stop buying more vehicles, especially Motorcycles...

Dave

PS: Big Thank You Ron. This made my Year....







We were hitting the steel targets consistently, You could see them spinning like crazy.
We only used lighter bullets so no real target accuracy was possible in the 1:9, 22 barrels.
I did shoot at small pieces of paper and rocks with the 1:16" twist and open sights. Hit them
every single time. Also found a plastic Coke bottle out a ways. Drove it all over with the 8" upper.
Walking down range to hang targets would have gotten a little messy, it drizzled a lot of the
time we were there. I'll be doing some target shooting with my semi auto lowers over the coming
weeks. It's hunting season Ron and I may not be able to get together again until that and the holidays
have passed...

Dave S

Great stuff, love this thread.

I'll play in this range report thread.

Cliff notes: this is my new favoritest gun ever!

20" Govt profile CMMG upper on a DPMS lower



Testing ammo, I have piles of Remington Gold Bullet, Remington Thunderbolt, Federal value pack, Winchester White Box, American Eagle, Peters (looks like it's by Remington), and I got some CCI 36 and 40 grain mini mags.


From the first six groups, it looked like AE, Peters, Win and Federal were the best, so I did them again on the last four targets.  I tried CCI 36 after, and expected it to be better.
Only failures were with Fed and Win.



CCI 40 did pretty good, Peters had a couple of bad groups in the beginning but got better.  AE looks like the winner for this rifle, with Peters being close enough especially for being bulk ammo compared to the expensive CCI.  For the last group I adjusted the windage to be right.



Next day, not very relevant but here's how my Marlin bolt .22 did with the same ammos.  It likes Peters the most, I used the center target to adjust the front sight post on the AR



75 yards with the AR.  Top two targets are with AE, bottom is with Peters.


All of the first day shooting was prone with no support.  Second day I had my left hand resting on a sand bag.
PSA carry handle, which means I have to buy a new one for my .223 upper.

I finally got to shoot my evil JAC kit.  I got is used from a board member with a BDM mag.  I really wish I had bought one of these sooner, it was quite a blast.  

I started out with a well lubed, barely fired kit and ran 25 rounds of CCI mini mags through it with no problems.  I was shooting at a 14 x 10" plate at 50 yards.  I ran it through a 10.5" Bushmaster with an Aimpoint H-1.  I didn't have to adjust the point of aim at all, and it was extremely difficult to miss the plate. I forgot my spray paint, so I can's say what kind of groups I was getting, but whether I shot at the head or the bottom of the target, I was still on, so I figure elevation was pretty close.

Next I tried Remington bulk pack hp (green box) and had several jams in a row.  I think they are under powered.  I then switched to Federal bulk pack and they ran like gang busters.  I found out very quickly that one magazine is not enough.  


One thing I did note is I got quite a bit of spitting from under the charging handle.  This went away with a piece of tape.

What are the weak links on the JAC kits and how long do they typically last?

Joe731: Thanks for the great range report. Doing that's a lot of extra work and we appreciate
your effort ....


wildearp: There aren't any real weak points. Your Ciener kit will normally last a lifetime.
Unless you shoot as much as I have. Guessing but with a good kit to start with and regular
cleaning and CLP,,,,, 100,000 + rounds.... Yes, These kits are that good.. CMMG's Stainless
Steel Kit, Only God Knows......

Dave S / Spec

So after reading all 17 pages Im more confused than ever.  Well sorta. :)

I am looking to build a dedicated .22 upper that is as good as any Annie bolt gun. My purpose is to make a training rifle in an automatic platform to train on for my LR.308  It would also be great to use it for tactical training like 3 pos. etc. The weight of the barrel is a concern but I am willing to overlook it for the accuracy.  The Spikes Loather Walther barrels look amazing but it looks like on their site that we cant get them anymore.  I may have skipped some threads as I was drooling to much. :)  So..  How do I need to build my upper?  And just to be clear.  This is the preferred method over getting a S/W 15/22 :D

Dusty

None of the 22 uppers will fit your LR 308 Lower. DPMS is coming out with a new 22 upper.
I'm not sure of the specifics or the barrel options. All I have heard of is that it's being released
in Bull Profile. Other than that, for accuracy, Clint Beyer's Barrels are nearly unbeatable for
accuracy. If you saw my post about his 16" barrel, you have a pretty good picture of their
capability. His shorter barrels are similar in capability. CMMG can build you an upper using
one of his barrels, directly from them. Or, you can order the barrel from Clint and do the build
yourself. Any of these options will likely be a good choice, that choice is up to you...

Added, I just read that DPMS is offering an M4 Version Upper too..

Good Luck,
Dave / Spec

Thanks Dave.  I know it wont fit the .308 but I want a .223 as well so this will be a good excuse to get the lower as well.

That's the spirit!!  True ARFCom thinking.

YMMV

To add to the trigger list. My LMT 2 stage notched works fine with my 6.5" dedicated CMMG upper.

mah827: Thanks, Edited it in as working with CMMG Uppers.
Barrel length isn't really a factor with the proper spring set up....

CMMG use the mad dog mags?  Those I have plenty of because of my Spikes dedicated upper with a lother walther barrel which I like realy well, but I also like to try new things.

I have not seen too many reviews of this unit so figured i'd do one.  I purchased it used with 3 original Colt 10rd mags locally in Seattle.  Aftermarket hi cap mags are available from BDM.  

I have had this unit for a few months and shooting it almost exclusively till i got a CMMG SS unit.  The CMMG frame broke and i am waiting for a replacement, so back to shooting the Colt.  

There was a sale on Remington Golden Bullets bulk packs at the local Sports Store.  <$20 for 525, figure if it will digest that stuff it will be good with anything else.

The Subject



The Rifle, Colt LE6940 with Burris XTR14 1-4
The Testers, my 11 year old son and me
Indoor range target set at 50 feet



The results from the last 50 rounds of Rem



It was still running fine after we ran out of Remmy and dug out the box of Winchester 333, here are rounds 500-600
10 round groups at the red dots, son's 50 round group at the black dot.



The Colt after 707 continous rounds (501 Rem Golden, 200 Win 333 & 6 Wolf)



All cleaned up and ready for the next test.  Perhaps 666 rounds of Win?



Continued shooting (mostly my son spraying) another 100 rounds and a few rounds through a Chow 1911 before calling it a day and heading to lunch at the local Taco Van.

Results
FTF@50, dud
FTF@261, dud
Switched to the 15 minute trigger mod springs at 400
FTF@411, dud
FTF@421, dud
FRF@463, dud
FTF@497, dud
502 to 525 missing.  There were only 501 rounds in the box that was suppose to have 525, i feel cheated.

Remington Golden Bullets
Groups were not very tight, Winchester and the 6 shots of Wolf that my friend left behind were much tighter.
2 duds in 399 rounds with a standard trigger 0.5% fail rate.
4 duds in 100 rounds with lighter 15 min trigger cut and bent springs 4% fail rate.  I think it is the trigger springs.

Winchester 333
Shot much tighter than the Rems.
I had quite a few duds with the softer trigger springs as i did with the rems, so switched back to stock and problem went away.
The 15 min trigger did not work for my set up.  

Colt Conversion Verdct
It will do the job and do it well.  The kit is well made and is nicely finished and put together.  It will also work on an M16 according to the markings.  Too bad they are no longer made.

It would have probably eaten another 300 rounds but we were getting a little hungry and tired. 707 rounds with no failure except for duds and weak trigger spring testing is pretty good.  Maybe i will do the same with the CMMG when i get the replacement.

I'm a new shooter to .22 LR conversion/dedicated units for the AR family of guns.  However, having one built and using it now for a few weeks, I've discovered a cause for FTF that I’ve been unable to see mentioned in this thread or others.

It appears my Ciener unit (on an upper assembled by Accuracy Speaks, Mesa AZ as a dedicated .22 LR AR) is jamming due to the firing pin failing to retract fully.  The rim of the round is not getting seated onto the bolt face by the impediment of the firing pin.  The Firing Pin is not retracting by spring pressure and feels “sticky”.  This malfunction occurs only when attempting to load the first round from a magazine.

I've ruled out magazines as a problem by using all three of my fitted "tuned" Ciner 10 rounders, three Black Dog 25 rounders, and a 50 round drum.  Same FTF malfunction with all seven magazines.

This malfunction started after about 300 rounds of ammo testing with various ammo using a suppressor fired semi-wet.  Lots of crude got blown back into the receiver area.  Koil oil the hell out of the bolt, cleaned everything up, but the firing pin still sticks and the malfunction persist.

I think, given my limited experience and training, that cleaning the firing pin and its channel in the bolt would fix this problem.  May also be a case of a bad firing pin spring.

So…for those with more knowledge and real world experience with this than I…please advise accordingly.

Some immediate questions I have are:

-Proper way to disassemble the bolt to gain access to the firing pin channel and the firing pin? (pictures please)
-Source for a replacement firing pin spring? Or a better firing pin.  Ciener parts appeared a bit rough in finish…but they work, so far.
-Schematic for the Ciener unit?

Also, are the parts from CMMG usable in a Ceiner unit?  IN case I need to start replacing parts.

-Firing Pin?
-Firing Pin Spring?
-Forward assist unit?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Bob

I am getting ready to build a dedicated .22 and had a question about the buffer and spring.  do i use a heavy or carbine spring and buffer or should i get a lighter spring?  any help is greatly appreciated.

mososodbob: Most of the CMMG Parts have been upgraded and it's very Iffy whether they would work.
Black Dog Machine had replacement parts For Ciener Kits at one time. I don't believe Ciener will be selling
any as he has Federal Charges against him for his business practices. Sorry an Answer took so long.

Suarezem47: You don't even need the buffer and spring with a 22 but any will suffice to help hold your
Kit in place if you prefer..

Dave S

I have not posted in this thread in a long time, but my wife and I got a chance to go out and shoot at our new range yesterday. Finally!!

The specs on the guns are in the video descriptions. I learned alot from this thread when building and tuning both of the rifles.

What are you guys using for magazines. I just ordered a CMMG 22 upper and am looking into getting mags. I see the CMMG and Black Dogs are favorites. I have a Doublestar lower I am going to put this upper on.

Thanks

Either mags should work fine. The new CMMG Gen ll modular mags have steel feed towers, can add or subtract capacity using cores and are very easy loading.
Dave N

Have you checked that link lately? They are now in full production with the Crosman name on it. $600.00 from PyramydAir.com
I think I'll pass...for now.

Now that we're back into panic buying season with the election coming up. These
uppers are back in my spotlight. We're likely in for more ammo cost increases
in the future. That in itself may make that link well visited...

Dave S

I picked up two Spikes barrels from a member here and now I'm trying to find collars for them, so I can have two dedicated uppers. Not having any luck, I've been searching for the last week. I've though about turning the nipple down to fit the CMMG collar but I'd rather find colars that fit. Any suggestions or leads on collars would be  appreciated.

Call Spike's.  They still have the collars - just got mine in two days ago. They are busy - might try emailing them also.
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/contact_us.html

Spikes Tactical LLC
2593 Clark Street #103
Apopka, FL 32703
USA
Phone: 407.928.2666
Fax: 866.283.2215
Sales/Billing Email: [email protected]

Model 1 sales uses same size collar as Spikes.

I called Spikes on this (ST2C180) on 3/6/12 and was told they no longer have them. I also talked with tech support twice and they were no help at all.
Just got off the phone with Sharron at Spikes and she says yes they have the ST2C180 and takes my order - whats up with that.
Thanks for posting the invoice I would have not called them back if I hadn't seen it.

Glad you tried again.  Yep - Sharron was my contact person too.  She's in sales and seems to know more about what they have available than the tech people.

Top:  Spike's with collar
Next:  Spike's chamber adapter
Next:  Kuehl modified Ciener kit
Bottom:  CMMG dedicated .22 charging handle


Left:  Kuehl modified Ciener.       Right;  Spike's.

The Spike's collar is tight on the barrel I bought here on the exchange (I think it's that same seller as the others bought from).  Tight is good when it comes to collars - it is a press fit and can be removed without tools - just pulled it out - carefully - by hand.  The Kuehl collar is a easy slide fit but it's been through several thousand rounds.

YMMV

Just a note to anyone with questions about Hammer / Trigger Combos or Trigger Packs that will work with AR-22's.
See page 11 of this thread, About half way down the page is my post # 2390. It's a list we started 2 years ago.
Anyone who sees a need to update the list, Please PM me with details so The list can be kept up to date..

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_15/441890_22_Conversions___Dedicated_22_s__22_Builds___Range_Reports__Ammo__Tips__Tricks__Insight_and_More_.html&page=11

Thank You,
Dave / SpecOps-13 in Florida

I used a Wilson Combat Trigger Pack with my A2 CMMG and a Slide Fire Stock. The trigger pack is one from when they first came out. I believe it's 3 lb trigger pull.  CCI Mini Mags were my choice of ammo. Man, was it a blast. This trigger pack has doubled with a Tactical Solutions LW 22 Upper and standard ammo but this set up today really worked out well. My upper is really pretty heavy too.
No pictures, no camera, no cell phone, no job.

TACCOM,,,,, Great New Ideas From Tim.....

This is my first look at any of TACCOM's Products. I'm not up to date on the latest descriptive words,
but Totally Cool, Awesome and Sick (That Word I've never used much before) came to mind as I opened
the package and got a view of what was sent. The barrel is marked 17". That's a first for me...I envision
an Ultra Light Build coming out of this... A 22 Carbine you could carry about as easily as the Ruger LCP.
Unbelievable Tim... I'm impressed,,,, Big Time...

Dave South

I couldn't decide which picture to post, I liked the camo and my Wife liked the wood background so here's both.
Carbon Fiber Fore-end, Super Light Barrel and Carbon Fiber Butt Stock...


BTW, this barrel doesn't need an alignment pin. The bolt collar takes care of that... No over or under torque required...







Made my initial range trip last night. Showed the Carbine to the Range Master, Brother Ed.
His first comment was total amazement at how light the weight was. Ed doesn't get very
excited over anything. He's seen it all. This one held his attention for more than the normal
length of time. I'd have had him shoot it but he didn't have any back up to take care of the desk.

I weighed the TACCOM Carbine as built with a cheapo NC Star, 6x Scope at 3-3/4 pounds.

Well, I built this using a lower I'd had decommissioned and stuffed in the back of one safe. It's
an Old Olympic. I tried the new CMMG BHOA Magazine first. I thought it would fit fine as I've
used them in a number of my lowers. Wrong answer. It got stuck so bad when I pushed it in
I had to literally beat it out. I had several of BDM's X-Form Mags along and they fit very good.

The first few rounds gave a little grief as far as feeding but I dropped down to 5 rounds per magazine
for a time and everything went well. After 50 or so rounds I went back to full magazines and everything
worked great except the expected,,,, Federal Bulk.. Over 200 rounds and 11 just wouldn't go bang...
I busted one so many times it looked like the edge of a commercial pie crust. As I had expected, the
accuracy was mediocre at best. I used this ammo just to get some rounds through the barrel. Even so,
The TACCOM had absolutely no problem staying well within the 3" Shoot-N-See Target Centers. Once
the barrel is seasoned with several hundred more rounds I'll do some good ammo. Should be no problem
cutting the group size by more than half. The picture shows one 5 shot group at 25 yards that measures
approximately 1" CTC. I consider this pretty good given the inconsistency of the Federal and the fact that
the barrel was new and "Unseasoned". Use moderation when cleaning the barrel. as with any good grade
barrel. It is capable of many, many thousands of rounds and I believe above average accuracy once it's
broken in properly.

NOTE: If you're going to shoot with a Slide Fire Stock or a Full Auto Lower. Use a good grade ammo.
Winchester bulk at the very least. Federal Bulk scares me with it's inconsistency. I'd hate to have a bullet
dribble into the barrel and several more run into it before I could get off the trigger.

My impression, this is one of the few firearms I've ever fired that was a complete BLAST to shoot. I'm getting
older and weaker, the super light weight made for standing, off hand shooting that was so easy and so much
fun. I'm Totally Hooked. Tim, You have an Awesome start on a product line... The Butt Stock and the Fore-End
are very comfortable to use and the length of the Butt Stock allows the Scope to be mounted more forward for a
better balance than is normally achievable...


Dave in Florida...

TACCOM's Site for those who've asked: http://www.taccom3g.com/








   TACCOM, Match Ammo Update:    

I decided to continue this thread and update the title. Some of you have it marked awaiting
a Match Ammo Update... My Range was quiet while I was shooting Winchester 555 but the
groups and the reliability were about the same as with Federal Bulk, SAD... 1" 5 shot groups
was about as good as it got. I'm not going to bother posting quarter sized groups now.

As soon as I started getting ready to shoot Match Ammo, All "L" broke loose in the 5 lanes
beside me. I don't know if it was all young ons or what. I get into a mode when I get serious
and didn't even look. I shot a total of 10 centers for accuracy after I had played with the bulk
ammo. Of which 4 were with the Winchester 555. I picked the best of 2 groups each for Eley,
CCI and Wolf. The 3 best ammo choices I have at the present....

This TACCOM Build amazed the "L" out of me. It's a Tack Driver off the bench and it's only got
about 500 rounds through the barrel. I'm really Psyched Up about it.....

Note, I switched to white center pasters from the orange, mid stream. White was easier to see
in the lighting conditions tonight. And, I didn't re-zero the scope for the ammo, I left it where it
was for the Winchester 555.


Dave S

Does it look like the end user would be able to take those apart to shorten them up a little? I'm curious if they're pinned together or epoxied. I'm really interested in this set up, but at this point in life I don't wanna buy stuff unless it's exactly what I want (or at least capable of being turned into what I want)

For me personally, I'd want the length of pull about 2" shorter and the bbl 16" measured from the breech face to the muzzle.

Is that 17" measured from the front of the receiver or from the breech? It looks a little long to me for some reason. Man o man would I like to have that set-up in a shorter length though.

Best to go here and PM or E Mail Tim of TACCOM Directly for a faster more reliable answer. He's the man who makes them. http://www.ar15.com/member/member.html?id=298641

Thanks, but I emailed him a week or so ago, I figured someone here might know. No rush. I'll find out when I find out, but I would like to know. Just picturing a shorter version...shew, would be sweet.

edited to add I was contacted via pm. I didn't want to leave this looking like it was open ended. I'm 90% sure I'm gonna be placing an order. When it looks as good as it shoots.... you're onto something good in my book.

I've been thinking of picking up a CMMG bolt conversion kit for the M&P, then selling off my SIG 522 .22lr.  This would free up funds for a new project.

A lot of ppl here seem to prefer a dedicated upper, but for that cost I might as well just keep the SIG.  How reliable and accurate is the CMMG kit?  Will I be disappointed?  I mainly just use my SIG as a plinker and target shooting.  It's been super reliable and very accurate but it might be time to let it go...

Well being out here in the bush the past 4 months with internet access and a credit card has left me with an extra PSA stripped upper and a completed Spikes lower... And since I am moving to Cali in November and my 5.56 guns can't tag along... its rimfire time again.

I had originally bought one of the first Chiappa M4 uppers and did an extensive review on it it a few years back, I'm sure it is lost in the archives but I know one thing... I don't want another. I have a sig 522 and since my girlfriend has gotten a little too attached to it... i need to build.

At this point... its down to CMMG or Spikes.. I love Spikes, have 3 of their lowers, but I don't want a 16" barrel. I want a 18 or 20", like CMMG carries. Is there any mixing and matching or am I pretty much committing myself to a manufactor with my barrel choice?

Spike's mid-length barrel from the EE, Eotech, Geissele SSA trigger.
Need to use a scope - I think this upper is capable of much better groups.
25 round group shot at 50 yards Sunday with CMP Aguila ammo (aiming point is the little notch on the black rectangle):

Top: CMMG 5.56 midlength
Middle:  Spike's midlength .22LR dedicated
Bottom:  Lower before Geissele SSA (had a Timney 4 lb - which is a great single-stage).

mfdif: Using a CMMG Conversion will be reliable. If you go to page 4 of this thread you can read about the expected accuracy in a standard AR-15 Barrel. That's in one of my posts there.

FreezinSig: You need to make a choice between Spike's and CMMG. There will be some machining required to mix and match. CMMG has a much larger selections of barrels in the length you're looking for.

MikeS1970: All I can say is: You've made a beautiful set of twin uppers... Awesome....


Dave S

Just got back from testing TACCOM's Revised Firing Pin. Used ammo that normally gives miss fires, Federal WallyWorld and Winchester 555's.
Ran Great. I took pictures of several cases to show here. I didn't have to use any of the shims with my Stainless Steel CMMG Bolt, the length
measured perfect to the bolt face. I do suggest you measure and use shims as necessary. Because it fit this one bolt doesn't mean it will work
with every one. Besides the check has instructions and takes seconds to accomplish...

This TACCOM3G Firing Pin insures good solid primer hits....

The parts CMMG sent are for the Absolute Most Radical / Sick / Awesome AR-22 design I've seen to date. I showed this in another thread but I'll post it again here to preserve it for the long term. See below.

This all starts with CMMG sending individual parts which normally wouldn't be a problem. CMMG didn't send a handguard, not a big deal either. I didn't have a handguard readily available and wanted some time to think about the length I wanted. Initially I set the rifle up without one, using just a delta pack barrel nut to get some preliminary shooting results. Those results are listed farther down in this Post. No Problem so far. I didn't worry about gas tube alignment, just made it as hand tight as I could with a strap wrench. The rifle did quite well so I started looking at handguard options. Ron Williams told me he had some UTG / Leapers in 13", Made in the USA. Amazingly.. I drove down to his shop and liked the rail other than the turtle shell rail covers that come with it. They work fine on the bottom rail but suck on the side and top rails  I've got boxes of them in one closet. I really didn't think about the rail mounting system much, it looked pretty cool even though it doesn't have a provision for an end cap. I really like the clean look of end caps. The rail is a UTG / Leapers Pro, 13", Model 4/15, MTU006

I generally Love to build my AR's. However, several months ago my wife and I decided to organize the garage. Well everyone knows what happens then. Although I have way more room and everything's pretty and well organized it's a matter of where did it get organized too? I set the digital drill press, lathe and table jig saw up on my new bench. No more room. Figured I'd use the Oak Vise on the end of the bench for a while so I didn't set up my Big Vise or the bench grinder. Also figured I could use a drill and wheel for grinding. Wrong Answers....

Friday, I started out trying my already modified clamshell on the ambidextrous upper receiver. NOT,,,,, to accomplish the ambidextrous capability, the receiver don't fit. Plan B, heavy leather around the barrel and tighten the barrel nut in the Oak Vise. Well the barrel turned in the vise no matter how hard I tried to clamp down. Had my wife hold the barrel at one end with a rubber mat and a rag and I held the receiver by hand to gain more traction. I'd noticed that this handguard has to have the gas tube aligned for the rail to mount straight. We got it within about 2 minutes of being aligned but no matter how hard we tried, that was all she wrote. I knew I had to find the big vise and set it up but we were both worn out at that point from the struggle.

Went back at it Saturday. Found the vise and C-Clamped it temporarily to a spare end table. Used the piece of leather and got the barrel nut aligned quite easily. Went back in the house to finish installing the rail retention / alignment screws. Oops, the screw heads are too wide to go past the sides of this receiver. Back to the garage, dig the bench grinder out and I temporarily C-Clamp mounted it to a wooden stool. Put the screws in my battery powered drill and turned the sides of the heads down equally. Used a BC Bluing Pen to refinish and finally done.

I had an ad I wanted to put up on the board at the range so I figured I'd put the upper on an open lower Sunday. I also figured I could try to come up with enough rail covers for the monster rail too. Did I mention we reorganized the gun room and all my parts too? I finished up Sunday night, figuring I could shoot Monday Night. The range is always open on Holidays. Guess what I was told when I called the Range Master (Brother Ed) Monday Morning... They decided to close on Holidays . Crap.....


Can't decide if I like the look or want to go with another color or lower set up...? I know I'll Love the basic rifle for it's intended purpose which is from the bench, match shooting.. At 9-3/4 lbs I won't be carrying it  for long.  Should be Sniper Capable at 22 LR Ranges. With it's Match Chamber, a little ammo finicky but 1/4" ish groups @ 25 yards with bulk ammo and this still new barrel have impressed me.

Dave S

Target shown was shot @ 50 yards at the CMMG Factory

I see this thread is on the very last page, so I'll bump it with plans for my first dedicated .22 LR upper.
I just got my SBR stamp back, so I will be using that lower (Spike's) with a Geiselle SSA-E.

For the upper I'm using a CMMG reciever with an aluminum sleeved Taccom 4" barrel inside a JP/Vtac handguard. Also plan on getting the CMMG India bolt carrier group and replacing the extractor and firing pin with the Taccom ones I ordered with the barrel. (Got the whole reliability kit)
Using a Matech rear and KAC front sight until I get ahold of a Vortex SPARC.
I also picked up 3 Black Dog 25 round mags.

Hopefully everything works together! I guess I will find out later this month when I get the BCG. Can't wait!!

My Ceiner kit works now.  Thanks to you guys and CMMG LOL.

This thread has been my saving grace in getting my JAC conversion to work.  I have had it since the late 80’s JAC only had excuses and blame for how it was somehow my fault or my guns fault or any fault of the over 30 AR’s I tried it in. BUT IT WAS NEVER JAC A.. fault.

My son now actually wants to really learn to run an AR platform, so I need a conversion. I took an old PWA 10” barrel with a 6” xm style flash suppressor a stripped palmetto state armory upper and this kit and made him a dedicated upper that wouldn’t work.

I tried everything in this thread plus I tried everything the Bazooka Brothers  
(http://bazookabrothers.com/tech_assistance.htm AR15/M16.22 CONVERSION MODIFICATIONs)
said before I got frustrated and bought a CMMG.. The CMMG works awesome out of the box on the 10 inch barrel so long as I use Black Dog Machines Magazines.

Then I got really hard headed and decided to reverse engineer the JAC Kit using the CMMG as an exemplar. In my estimation I have about 25 hours into this JAC kit but it runs.  It won’t take you this long. But here are some things that are not in other places in this thread

Now remember I had  polished and buffed and filed my keester off, replaced the firing pin, as well as the extractor both from Black Dog as well as the Lakeside recoil spring set that Black Dog sells,  then I had reshaped the Black Dog extractor as well BEFORE I started the whole let me compare the two different kits process.  

I had the JAC kit working so that it would feed and extract by hand but it would fail to go all the way into battery at least 1 in 10 times and get a light strike, it also had nasty stove pipes lots of Ceiner Jams that wedge a brass between the bolt and the charging handle. I couldn’t run 10 rounds at a time normally like normally it was 3 shots before it would jam in some way.  I felt like I had mattie mattel the jammomatic.

The first big difference mechanically (besides quality and  quality control and better materials) in how the kits look is the Relief cut on the rail by the ejection port opposite the ejector.   I took a really big drink of my Capt’n he seems to help a lot at times like this, put the rails in a vice between a couple  blocks and grabbed my most aggressive file and 20 minutes later I had the relief cut done. ( this is visible next to the tooth brush in the picture) This is not for the faint hearted or inexperienced with a file.  Go and shoot it.  NO MORE CEINER JAMS no more stove pipes. Still won’t go into battery like 3 out of 10 times still can’t shoot a full mag.

I figured out the ejectors actions looked different as the kits both go into battery. So I tried to reshape the Black Dog extractor to match the CMMG got it pretty close.  Go and shoot it, runs most of the time.  Still fails to go into battery about twice in a magazine.  Talk with the Capt’n some more.. (I am really getting to like that Zero) Decide to scalp the Extractor from my new CMMG kit and try it.  Gun runs better still doesn’t go into battery 2 or 3 times in 3 Magazines.

I shot about 4,000 rounds into the berm while I went through this entire process over the last month. I know it would have been cheaper to just buy another CMMG but CEIner got my money and  I was  going to make this POS work.

SO since I have the CMMG apart (and more Capt’n) I thought well let’s try their recoil spring.. go and shoot it, OMG  bad choice.  It must be lighter than the Lakeside one.  SO now I know I need a stronger recoil spring…I then remembered that I had tried shortening one of the Lakeside recoil springs to no avail earlier in this process and that I had the long non working piece left from that. I found that these springs had closed loop ends and would not coil into each other if I added an extra piece at the base of the recoil spring guide before I put the standard length one on top of it. Well I started with about a 2 inch additional piece I think it is about an inch now as I was smart enough to remember a pair of side cutters when I went to the local shooting hole this morning. I just kept cutting 3 coils at a time till it WORKED then I shot 120 rounds with no malfunctions using Black Dog Magazines.

Mondays mission call CMMG order a replacement Extractor for my new kit.( Cuz I ain’t taking the cmmg one out now that it works in the JAC kit) order a complete CMMG 22 upper to go with the CMMG kit I now have.  I just ordered 2 LW 15 composite lowers, so in a few weeks I will have 2 complete 15 22s that work and no longer are kits.  Off to see the Capt’n  ….

Okay, after reading this entire thread, I am just as confused as when I started.

If you wanted to buy a drop in COMPLETE Upper that's as light as possible which one would be the best option?

Also, it should be compatible with the best magazines available, which from reading this thread appear to be the Black Dog mags..

Yes I am confused and need help, I have grandkid's who need to be taken out and taught safe gun handling and how to have fun hitting the target.
Okay so the wife and I plan on having fun dates shooting too!  

The lightest on the Market would be a TACCOM Barrel with carbon fiber sleeve, next would be a CMMG light weight barreled dedicated upper, Tactitcal Solutions  LT upper or a Chiappa which uses a polymer upper.   Personally I'd shy away from the Chiappa, decent design, cheaper component material and made in Italy.  All of these use Black Dog  Machine mags which follow the Atchisson pattern.

Thank you for the quick response. It is most helpful.

Bounce for Renewed Viewing of those of you who are new to 22's.
This thread and others are listed in the top folders of the front page
of the index of threads under "Important". When ARFCOM staff decided
to put all of these threads into folders rather than simply be stickied at
the top of the indexes, I've seen the reads on this one go from about
1,000 a month to a mere trickle, Everyone skips over the folders and
misses out on a lot of really educational material. Most of the other
threads in the " Important Folders"  have done the same and there's a
lot of good information in them.


Dave / SpecOps-13 in Florida