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Posted: 4/19/2020 8:28:40 PM EDT
[#1]
How was it stored?
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Posted: 4/19/2020 9:03:55 PM EDT
[#2]
I ran that stuff from the 90s about a year ago- no issues.
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Posted: 4/19/2020 9:06:37 PM EDT
[#3]
In a cabinet, in a dry basement, the whole 14 years. The same place I have kept my Greek Garand ammo from the 70s and 80s, same with my 1976-80 7N6 5.45 and so on and it all shoots fine except this old Winchester stuff. I did have a ton ammo from my youth that moved with me many times and was stored in attics and unheated sheds and it all shot as expected after years of that. I have been wanting to buy a chrono, maybe now is the time.
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Posted: 4/20/2020 8:58:34 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Back in 2006 I bought a boatload of WWB Q3131a (IMI) and it was popping every fifth primer, so I sent it back to Winchester and they sent me some Q3131 and some 55 grain .223. Fast forward to last December, I find 6 boxes of the Q3131a, I shot it, expecting to pop primers, it didn't even flatten the primers, let alone pop them, so obviously the velocity dropped off. Fast forward again to this March, I decided to use up some of the Q3131 that has been sitting in my dry basement for 14 years, it was weaker the Tula .223. It turned guns that are 100% reliable with various 5.56 55 grain loads into single shots. Plus, it patterned like a shotgun at 50 yards. So I am stuck with a bunch of this crap and I don't reload. I had shot plenty of this stuff back when it was new and it was fine and accurate. I have shot up all of the 2006 .223 and it runs great and is as accurate as I would expect. Has anybody run into this before with "older" Winchester 5.56 ammo? In my opinion if this ammo is bad today it was bad 14 years ago. Most of my goto ammo is that old or older and I have 100 percent confidence it's as good today as the day it was made. As long as the ammo was not stored in some extreme (like underwater or some place with 100 degree daily temperature swings) 14 years is like a week to modern ammo. |
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Posted: 4/20/2020 9:23:18 AM EDT
[#5]
I had some M855 that was under water for a week, I loaded it in USGI mags and stored for 12 years, the ammo and mags ran fine without a hiccup.
I agree with GAU8, it was bad ammo coming right off the production line back in 2006. |
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Posted: 4/20/2020 11:24:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Can you post lot numbers? Maybe pic of box/headstamp
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Posted: 4/20/2020 11:50:37 AM EDT
[#7]
I have plenty of the old Q3131A, bought cheap and stacked deep, from that time period and never had a problem with any of it.
Shot some about a month ago, at least 2 different lots, fantastic ammo. Even my ancient Win M855 still shoots like the day I bought it. |
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Posted: 4/20/2020 12:54:08 PM EDT
[#8]
I do not believe that properly manufactured and stored ammo loses it's potency at all as time goes by.
I had some 1951 Turk Mauser that was within 10 FPS of spec over 50 years after it was made. I also have lots from 1941 and 1931. They seem to have the same POI as the "Newer" lot from 1951, but I have not chronographed them. I agree, bad ammo now was bad ammo then barring powder deterioration which is possible, but means the powder wasn't made correctly in the first place. I guess bad powder may perform adequately when new and degrade over time, but good powder will remain good decades later. I have had bad lots of powder, so I know it's possible. |
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Posted: 4/20/2020 2:06:45 PM EDT
[#9]
My friend had a similar issue with some WWB from way back. Maybe 80s-90s vintage. Had been stored in magazines inside an ammo can in his closet all these years. The ammo was left overs from a bunch we bought, and was OK at the time.
Most ammunition "ages" well enough, but some just does not... |
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Posted: 4/20/2020 3:07:55 PM EDT
[#10]
i bought 10,000 rounds of the izzy made 31A way back then, 2004ish i guess it was. it never popped a primer then and i just got around to shooting the last of it, last year. still no issues.
did you use the same barrel? |
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Posted: 4/20/2020 5:05:48 PM EDT
[#11]
No, but I did use it in 3 different guns in a vain attempt to zero them. It really put a damper on the day.
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Posted: 4/22/2020 9:57:15 AM EDT
[#12]
This thread is in my interest. Just on Sunday. I took out my SHTF box of mags stored in a pelican case that I loaded into USGI mags with Q3131 about I want to say in 2006-2007? All the mags and ammo worked perfectly.
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Posted: 4/22/2020 10:01:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i bought 10,000 rounds of the izzy made 31A way back then, 2004ish i guess it was. it never popped a primer then and i just got around to shooting the last of it, last year. still no issues. did you use the same barrel? I'm curious, what chamber ?... 5.56 ? ... .223 Wylde ? |
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Posted: 4/22/2020 10:03:11 AM EDT
[#14]
@handyandy
Could you pull apart some of the rounds ? Looking for clumped powder, and or obvious corrosion ? |
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Posted: 4/22/2020 10:10:49 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, but I did use it in 3 different guns in a vain attempt to zero them. It really put a damper on the day. It is certainly possible it was bad ammo when you bought it/received it from Winchester - and it is still bad. |
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Posted: 4/22/2020 2:50:02 PM EDT
[#16]
I have shot a lot of the Q3131a ammo without a single issue. I don't remember hearing of any issues when this ammo was new.
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Posted: 4/26/2020 9:52:27 PM EDT
[#17]
I'm still shooting 5.56 I bought back in 2000. Still looks new and shoots full power. I would say your ammo was weak to begin with.
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Posted: 4/26/2020 10:44:33 PM EDT
[#18]
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-196733/?page=1
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Posted: 4/27/2020 10:42:00 AM EDT
[#19]
Yes, Q3131a (IMI) was known for popping primers in the 2003-06 range. What I am talking about now is Q3131, US made 5.56.
I went shooting yesterday and I took some of the old Q3131 and some new WWB 5.56 that I bought. I brought my 12.3" pistol and it ran perfectly with the new WWB 5.56, the old Q3131 did the same thing and made it a single shot again, it never came close to stripping another round. I shot it in a pistol with a Faxon 11.5" mid-length barrel and it ran fine in that with the same H3 buffer and Sprinco blue spring. That barrel is way over gassed and I need to go to a red spring. |
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Posted: 4/27/2020 11:19:16 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, Q3131a (IMI) was known for popping primers in the 2003-06 range. What I am talking about now is Q3131, US made 5.56. I went shooting yesterday and I took some of the old Q3131 and some new WWB 5.56 that I bought. I brought my 12.3" pistol and it ran perfectly with the new WWB 5.56, the old Q3131 did the same thing and made it a single shot again, it never came close to stripping another round. I shot it in a pistol with a Faxon 11.5" mid-length barrel and it ran fine in that with the same H3 buffer and Sprinco blue spring. That barrel is way over gassed and I need to go to a red spring. Could you pull a few apart , looking for deteriorating / clumping powder ? Visually or smell wise ? And FWIW, Winc. Q3131 WCC '04 was pretty hot as well... ( from my chrono testing ) 16" and 20" barrels Winc. 55gr Q3131A.................W.C.C 03 .....................Av. 3105, ES 30................Av. 3234, ES 100........................Winchester IMI.. even says "Made In Israel" Winc. 55gr Q3131...................WCC 04 NC..................Av. 3162, ES 98.................Av. 3282, ES 101........................Winc. from '04 Winc. 55gr Q3131...................WCC 12 NC...................Av. 3095, ES 59................Av. 3296, ES 40..........................Current Winc. 55gr Q3131...................WCC 94.........................Av. 3268, ES 80................Av. 3333, ES 50..........................dismal 100yd accuracy... 4-5 MOA |
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Posted: 4/27/2020 12:46:48 PM EDT
[#21]
The only ammo i have had issues with in any calibers would be ammo that got damp inside the case and primers and powder went bad and then old surplus 8mm and .303 brit ammo where the powder had broken down and experienced odd and inconsistent burn rates. Sounds like it was no-good from the get go.
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Posted: 5/1/2020 2:58:03 AM EDT
[#22]
I hated Q3131A ammo from that time period. Running rifle classes with a lot of Bushmasters that we suspected were closer to a .223 chamber spec than a 5.56 chambering. That Israeli ammo was quite high pressure and blew primers a lot, causing issues:
Primer jammed in a can pin (beat apart time) Primer jammed in trigger group while I was zeroing a batch of rifles at indoor range prior to a class- it went full auto due to the primer. Lots of other issues when a primer is running around inside the receiver. We had zero problems running it in HK G36’s, and ended up using the last of it up in those and using only US made Q3131 for the Bushmasters. Didn’t pop primers in those as much or at all (been awhile but I think at all) So if you are shooting it in a different rifle now, is likely why the pressure seems different. A different Leade, looser bore, more worm barrel, etc. even the temp of the ammo before you shoot it possibly. |
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Posted: 5/1/2020 3:07:41 AM EDT
[#23]
Damn- read the update. Talking about the US made Q3131 having an issue? Have not seen that at all. Have lots of oddball ammo I find in mags, range bags, car doors, etc that is quite often that old, I shoot it up when I find it. Lots is Q3131. Never seen it perform badly or fail to function due to ammo. Sounds like a bad batch maybe. Usually it is pretty stout stuff compared to say weak PMC .223 or whatever.
Winchester did do .223 loadings as well that was packaged for .223, I don’t know what the spec difference was but I never noted it to be weak at all. Bad function is usually something I only see with PMC or Wolf/Tula type ammo, and a lot depends on the barrel length, gas system, buffer, etc. Absolutely no reason for 14 year old Q3131 to be weak. But I do know that some of the Win FMJ bullets are not exactly the worlds best bullets... some look pretty ugly for consistency. Still should not cause what you are seeing though. Pull some down, chrono some... |
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Posted: 5/1/2020 1:44:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GAU-8: In my opinion if this ammo is bad today it was bad 14 years ago. Most of my goto ammo is that old or older and I have 100 percent confidence it's as good today as the day it was made. As long as the ammo was not stored in some extreme (like underwater or some place with 100 degree daily temperature swings) 14 years is like a week to modern ammo. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GAU-8: Originally Posted By handyandy: Back in 2006 I bought a boatload of WWB Q3131a (IMI) and it was popping every fifth primer, so I sent it back to Winchester and they sent me some Q3131 and some 55 grain .223. Fast forward to last December, I find 6 boxes of the Q3131a, I shot it, expecting to pop primers, it didn't even flatten the primers, let alone pop them, so obviously the velocity dropped off. Fast forward again to this March, I decided to use up some of the Q3131 that has been sitting in my dry basement for 14 years, it was weaker the Tula .223. It turned guns that are 100% reliable with various 5.56 55 grain loads into single shots. Plus, it patterned like a shotgun at 50 yards. So I am stuck with a bunch of this crap and I don't reload. I had shot plenty of this stuff back when it was new and it was fine and accurate. I have shot up all of the 2006 .223 and it runs great and is as accurate as I would expect. Has anybody run into this before with "older" Winchester 5.56 ammo? In my opinion if this ammo is bad today it was bad 14 years ago. Most of my goto ammo is that old or older and I have 100 percent confidence it's as good today as the day it was made. As long as the ammo was not stored in some extreme (like underwater or some place with 100 degree daily temperature swings) 14 years is like a week to modern ammo. this is my assessment as well |
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Posted: 5/1/2020 4:39:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freakinout: this is my assessment as well Same here, out of all my 55gr ammo only the old yellow box Norinco 55gr is hotter. |
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Posted: 5/1/2020 4:46:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By edwin907: Same here, out of all my 55gr ammo only the old yellow box Norinco 55gr is hotter. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By edwin907: Originally Posted By Freakinout: this is my assessment as well Same here, out of all my 55gr ammo only the old yellow box Norinco 55gr is hotter. I should be testing boxes out of different lots/cases |
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Posted: 5/1/2020 6:58:33 PM EDT
[#27]
See if you can pull a bullet out of one of the cases and smell the powder. If it has an acidic odor, it means the powder is breaking down. Slight chance you have a lot of ammo that didn't have enough stabilizer in the powder, and now the powder is degrading.
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Posted: 5/3/2020 11:13:25 AM EDT
[#28]
Sorry, I wasn't getting emails that there were more posts in this thread. I will pull one apart and post some pictures and the lot number.
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Posted: 5/3/2020 9:34:44 PM EDT
[#29]
No noticeable ammonia smell. It's strange the 3 guns that run fine on recent vintage WWB choke on this. I can send some to someone with a chrono, at this point, I'm very curios as to what is going on.
      [img]https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/64318/20200503_173347_1_-1399746.jpg" />
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Posted: 5/3/2020 11:00:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Reload it with new powder and check the primer. Years ago the Izzys were having problem with their primers.
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Posted: 5/4/2020 8:32:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MyAliyah: Reload it with new powder and check the primer. Years ago the Izzys were having problem with their primers. Sorry, I'm not a reloader, but I do have about 50 pounds of .223, 5.56 and 9mm brass in a bin in my garage though. |
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Posted: 5/4/2020 9:45:40 PM EDT
[#32]
What's the head stamp? I have some Q3131 WCC 06 hanging around that I should try.
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Posted: 5/4/2020 9:50:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DarkLordVader: What's the head stamp? I have some Q3131 WCC 06 hanging around that I should try.  WCC. 06. and the NATO cross. |
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Posted: 5/4/2020 10:07:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Gonna tag this and dig mine out of the fort. I bought about 3K rounds of this from Bass Pro back in the day with a coupon for $1.99 a box. Best deal I ever got on brass cased ammo, I thought ...I hope.....
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Posted: 5/5/2020 2:21:04 PM EDT
[#35]
That's a 5
WCC 05 |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:42:50 AM EDT
[#36]
We got a bunch of Winchester white box ammo during the ammo panic of 2012, normally shoot american eagle. Never had ammo problems until we started shooting the white box. It was noticeably dirtier and had several blown primers (shooting suppressed gem tech integras). A couple of the blown primers lodged themselves into various parts of the gun taking them out off the firing line and needing complete disassembly to remedy. I shot up all the Winchester stuff in my collection after that to get rid of it.
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Posted: 5/16/2020 5:41:33 PM EDT
[#37]
I guess I’ll have to check mine. I have some WCC from that time period.
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Posted: 5/17/2020 11:55:38 AM EDT
[#38]
I've got a bunch of that white box Q3131 purchased between 2003-07 (M193 was my go-to 'warload' back then). All stored in 50 cal cans with desiccant in a cool but kinda damp basement.
I've never had any reliability issues with it (shot some last year to do some accuracy testing on a couple of my guns), but have noticed that every time I took it out, accuracy was never that great. The brown box Federal XM193 from that period is much more accurate. |
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Posted: 5/17/2020 1:47:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Strange. This is consistent with bad gunpowder that degraded with age, due to insufficient stabilizer. Which would shoot great the first couple of years, but then lose potency. But you would see that and smell that on a pulled round, if so. And that powder visually looks fine. I'm not aware of gun-powder deterioration that doesn't include the odor release and clumping; so have my doubts now on that.
I don't know, it seems unlikely a round would go from heavily overpowered to underpowerd, by any other time-dependant means; other than via then powder degredation. Maybe gas system tuning? I'm assuming you were running a 20" rifle gas system when you got it, and today are running something with a shorter barrel and shorter gas system? Maybe that's just a slower burning powder originally tuned to a late 1980's gas system, now being run in a much shorter 2020 gas system? Still, you mention the primers are showing under-pressure sign as well, which I wouldn't think would really change, since peak pressure is in the first couple of inches regardless. I will say I have experienced odd behavior with weak primers, and so if the primer compound has perhaps degraded or weakened, combined with a ball-powder like that, it might be the case; but that would also be unusual. Think you can get a photo down into the case and see if the flash-hole is still clear? I suppose one test is to pull and dump the power, and fire the empty but still primed old WIN case, and then compare it to another more recent round, and see if the primer bang or behavior is any obviously different. In any event, I don't have an obvious answer from this data. I'm curious to learn what you find out. |
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