I for one am glad DocGKR did weigh in on this issue - he has had vastly more experience in testing these rounds than most people on the planet.

Unfortunately there seems to be a great deal of conjecture and 'odd' science, old wives tales and Gun Store and Gun Mag BS in the realm of ammo selections.

Unlike someone I call Massads A Boob, we all cannot pick and choose or wpn and ammuntion selection for any specific encounter.
Gee for the home invasion at 5 I will be wearing a Suede coat and carrying...

As a result, one is best off to stick with the best firearm system that meets their requirments and that they can afford to both purchase and train with.

Learn the capability of you and your wpns.

They don't have home invasion robberies in Virginia yet?

Armed robbers wearing kevlar vests started to show up around here about 99'. They turn up about once a month.

You are practiced enough with the Benelli that you can double tap and get a headshot the second time? Same with the .357? In the dark? How bout more than one attacker? Do you sleep in a location where no one can enter and get between you and other family members? What do you do if they get between you and other family members or if they get hold of one of your family members first?

Shotguns have been good defensive weapons for a while but they cannot handle even low threat level vests. I think you are using a very old paradigm as to the nature of the threat. Kevlar and like materials are only going to get cheeper and more available.

I would rather take the easier center of mass shot, where I know my round has the best chance of hitting and staying in the intended target, with a weapon I know is going to be effective all the time or at least until I hear a belevable report of someone getting caught wearing a LIII/IV rifle strike plate. I pray that isn't for a good long while though.

Did I forgot to mention that I have 911 on my cell phone speed dial?....He! He! He!


Home invasion with Kevlar?....Around here only the alphabet folks do that.

Happy to hear that, but I'd be willing to bet it won't last for much longer.

Thank you Guys for all the good arguments and counter Arguments you do not get to read when you read Mags, maybe you do, but it does not come across as well as in this sort of discusion, back and forth.

The best advice I have gotten after reading all this is .. as posted by KevinB...

"Learn the capability of you and your wpns."  

Because when SHTF .. That is what you are going to depend on to come out on top saving you and your family.

Can someone tell me why 75 or 77gr 5.56mm BTHP's might be the best, rather then 55g gr.  conventionals ?  Is this for best wounding and terminal performance with the heavier bullets but will this keep the penetration down ?

For 75-77 grain versus 55 grain, look at the tacked treads up above.

No one ever said that the 5.56 would NOT penetrate walls, just that it caused less wounding than 45,40,9mm after it did.  Fragments at nasty, but they are better than the alternative 45,40, or 9mm hole in you.

 But, but, mister! I thought the 5.56 killed people so great [i]because[/i] it fragmented.  Yes, this is true.  The fragments work because any object entering the body or any fluid medium at high speeds creates a tightly streched temporary cavity.  The tiny fragments hit this tightly streched tissue and really cut it up, creating a wound all out of sorts with it bullet size.  Imagine streching a string out  taut before you cut it, or strech the web of you fingers out tight and then cut it.

As for birdshot won't kill my babies in the other room, but it will put the bad guy down like a bulldozer, think about this.  Last week the dog treed a coon in the tree will I was out  shooting birds with the 12 gauge.  1.125 ounces of 7 1/2 shot, skeet tube.  That coon couldn't have been more than 30 feet from the gun up in the tree.  I shot him tree times.  The first shot just made her flinch.  The second shot she started doing the death siezure shake.  The third was for good measure.  I would not like to shoot a person with that, based on the performance against a 17 pound racoon.

With a shotgun is close enough to kill people with birdshot, it will still be in the wad, and will thus go through walls.  Not the second will maybe, but the first.  Not bad in that respect, but it won't kill the bad guy.  So why not use the excellent pointing AR?  If you hit the guy, it isn't going to be a problem.


train train train some more.  That is the most important thing anyways, more than equipment.

"With a shotgun is close enough to kill people with birdshot, it will still be in the wad, and will thus go through walls. Not the second will maybe, but the first. Not bad in that respect, but it won't kill the bad guy. So why not use the excellent pointing AR? If you hit the guy, it isn't going to be a problem."

I dunno won't the wad peel off on the first layer of clothing?  

If the shooter can't center of mass the perp at that range with a shotgun, what makes you think the shooter can do any better with another gun??  I believe the idea is to hit the target and then not have to worry about the performance/penetration of the crud coming out of him(her) toward the wall behind them.  

The 75 and 77 grian ammo will have greater wound trauma but they will penetrate sheetrock walls MORE than M193 and M193 will penetrate MORE than a ballistic tip.

I'm sure bird shot could kill if hit in the right spots and the person didn't get medical help. I saw this guy that was hit twice with #8 shot fron 5-8 feet away. Kind of funny in a sense because the shooter shot 9 rounds from that far and only hit him twice! Anyway, one hit him in the thigh, the other in the shoulder. Obviously, he was in great pain, but all it really did was tenderize the first inch or so of his body. Looked nasty as hell, like you sat there with an icepick and stabbed him 400 or so times. So, could it "stop" someone?, sure, but I wouldn't bank on it if the bad guy is determined and has a weapon. If the "victim" mentioned had a gun, he would have been able to return fire.

Mark

After reading this discussion I'm only sure of
ONE thing..... DON'T break into Uglygun's house!
[img]http://compjrk.home.mindspring.com/arkiv_scarface1.jpg[/img]

[:D]

When I was a kid I shot a racoon with a light quail load from about 10 feet.  Blew a leg off(don't ask how I missed the body at that range!).  I shot again and hit the body.  The wound was traumatic to say the least!  Birdshot may not be the most effective but it does work at close range.  If I wanted to use a shotgun for home defense(I don't though), I would consider using lighter loads such as birdshot to prevent overpenetration in building materials because buckshot and slugs penetrate way too much for me to feel comfortable using in the house.  I'll stick with my AR and my handguns for home defense.  

Here is a quote from the US Army's Field Manual on Urban Combat (3-06.11)

Weapon Penetration. The penetration that can be achieved with a 5.56-mm round depends on the range to the target and the type of material being fired against. The M16A2, M4, and M249 achieve greater penetration than the older M16A1, but only at longer ranges. At close range, the weapons perform the same. Single 5.56-mm rounds are not effective against structural materials (as opposed to partitions) when fired at close range—the closer the range, the less the penetration.

(1) [b]5.56 mm Maximum Penetration. For the 5.56-mm round, maximum penetration occurs at 200 meters. At ranges less then 25 meters, penetration is greatly reduced. At 10 meters, penetration by the M16 round is poor due to the tremendous stress placed on this high-speed round, which causes it to yaw upon striking a target. Stress causes the projectile to break up, and the resulting fragments are often too small to penetrate.[/b]

(2) Reduced Penetration. Even with reduced penetration at short ranges, interior walls made of thin wood paneling, Sheetrock, or plaster are no protection against 5.56-mm ball ammunition rounds. Common office furniture, such as desks and chairs, cannot stop these rounds, but a layer of books 18 to 24 inches thick can.

(3) Wood and Cinder Blocks. Wooden frame buildings and single cinder block walls offer little protection from 5.56-mm rounds. When clearing such structures, soldiers must ensure friendly casualties do not result from rounds passing through walls, floors, or ceilings.

(4) Armor-Piercing Rounds. Armor-piercing rounds are slightly more effective than ball ammunition in penetrating urban targets at all ranges. They are more likely to ricochet than ball ammunition when the target presents a high degree of obliquity.

c. Protection. The following common barriers in urban areas stop a 5.56-mm round fired at less than 50 meters:

One thickness of well-packed sandbags.

A 2-inch concrete wall (nonreinforced).

A 55-gallon drum filled with water or sand.

A small ammunition can filled with sand.

A cinder block filled with sand (block will probably shatter).

A plate glass windowpane at a 45-degree angle (glass fragments may be thrown behind the glass).

A brick veneer.

A car body (5.56-mm rounds penetrate but may not always exit).

Ok, my opinion: Anything you shoot in your house, Don't plan on the walls containing it.

If you shoot the bullet will probably hit drywall, insolation, drywall. Whatever it is, it will go through the wall.

That is unless your using a .22LR and you get lucky and it hits a 2x4.

.22s will go through the 4" direction of a 2x4 no problem.

Tests have shown that #1 buck has the most total combined cross section that will still penetrate enough.  00 and 000 buck have fewer pellets and less total area.  Anything smaller than #1 buckshot (like #4 buck or birdshot) won't penetrate enough to be effective.  Since I've never seen #1 buck anywhere I'll use 00 buck.

In the 5.56 I'll use M193 or 68gr BTHP since any of the ballistic tips won't penetrate enough to be effective.  

The #1 criteria of anything I fire in self-defense is to stop the threat to [b]ME[/b] and I will not choose a round incapable of stopping an attacker in order to minimize the risk to others.  

I fired a Sig P239 9mm Federal Hydrashock across my palm and it was stopped by a simple wood framed sofa.  Sometimes the smallest things will stop a bullet, sometimes they wont.

I'm not going to get into the .223 debate as Austrian, DocGKR, Kevin, Dev_L and several others have covered it well. But let me take a moment to debunk some horrible info I have been seeing in this thread regarding shotgun ammo.

Please, if you own a shotgun for home defense, don't use birdshot as defensive ammo! Some folks worry about over-penetrating and therefore use this, but birdshot loads also underpenetrate in soft tissue as well. Most birdshot will be lucky to penetrate deeper than 4" in flesh. The FBI minimum standard for penetration in flesh is 12". What good will it do to shoot an attacker with an ineffective load that will not rapidly incapacitate them? And birdshot loads have proven time and again that they can't be reliably counted upon to do so.

I feel there is a far greater danger of the bad guy getting me because my rounds were ineffective, then killing my family after I am down. I'll take my chances using a proven round....00 buckshot. Anything smaller will not reliably get the job done. In fact, many police agencies have had poor results with #4 buck...and this shot size is huge compared to birdshot. Now take this advice any way you choose but birdshot is not a good choice for home defense. Use shot placement and tactics to defeat the bad guy and keep your family out of the line of fire. Then use proper ammo to get the job done right.

And while I am on the topic of underpenetration, let me say the same thing about MagSafe and Glaser ammo. While these companies write these eye catching stories about how effective their ammo is, keep in mind that about the best these will do is penetrate 8" in soft tissue, some worse than this. And this bullet fragments so figure much of it doesn't even make it that far. Magsafe and Glaser is about like using a shotgun with birdshot...only with less pellets. Again, not ideal.

The FBI decided that 12" of penetration was necessary to reach the vital organs and CNS from certain angles. Most people don't square their chest up to you and give you a direct in shot. They crouch, they turn, they move....meaning your shot may have to come in from the side where an arm could rob you of several inches of penetration or more before the bullet ever enters the thoracic cavity. The FBI standard is a good one and resulted from the study of the Miami shootout in 1986 which was a dark day in FBI history. So in short, when you choose ammo, make sure it is capable of making the biggest wound channel as possible and penetrate deeply enough to reach the vitals from ANY angle! Otherwise, take your chances using a load with inferior terminal performance.

And just in case anyone is wondering, I will list some of the rounds that have been proven, both scientifically and on the street in actual shootings. The following rounds all robustly expand/fragment and penetrate to at least 12", even through clothing:

9mm
-Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ JHP
-Winchester Ranger 147 gr JHP
-Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
-Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP
-Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP
-Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP

.40 S&W
-Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHP
-Winchester Ranger 165 gr JHP
-Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
-Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP
-Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP

.45 ACP
-Winchester Ranger 230 gr JHP
-Winchester Ranger 230 gr +P JHP
-Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP
-Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP

.357 Sig
-Winchester Ranger 125 gr JHP
-Speer Gold Dot 125 gr JHP

.223
-Black Hills or Hornady 75 gr OTM
-Black Hills or Federal 77 gr OTM
-Black Hills or Federal 69 gr OTM
-Black Hills 68 gr OTM
-Winchester Supreme Power Point Plus 64 gr JSP
-Federal 55 and 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw
-Black Hills 60 gr SP

.308
-Hornady 155 gr TAP (with AMAX bullet)
-Federal 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
-Winchester Supreme 150 gr Ballistic Silvertip
-Loads using the 165 gr Sierra Game King

7.62X39mm
-Winchester Super-X 123 gr Power-Point

.30 Carbine
-Remington 110 gr JSP

12 Gauge
-Most any 00 or 000 buckshot loads will provide necessary penetration. However some may pattern better than others. The Federal Tactical 00 Buckshot is often a favorite.

I hope this little list is helpful to someone. While not all inclusive, it does list most of the best rounds when it comes to defensive criteria against human attackers. It is based upon research conducted by knowledgeable folks such as DocGKR, our own Tatjana and Brouhaha, and several others, as well as my own observations. If more details are needed, I will be happy to provide them later but there is only so much room in one post.

Penetration against glass, car bodies and other barriers is another story but most of the bonded bullet rifle loads do well, particularly the Federal Trophy Bonded and Nosler Partition. In handguns, the Speer Gold Dot is hard to beat for this purpose. And with shotguns, the Brenneke slugs have a good reputation.


-Charging Handle

Unless the AR is shooting .50 BMG I gurantee it will not go through 1 of my walls![;)]

There are so meny different cal. AR's It's stupid to say that. At best your walls are brick, brick cracks and shatters very easy when hit by a bullet. Don't forget all the handgun cal. rounds, the .50 beowolf, and .458 socom will usuialy penitrate deeper than a 5.56

If your life depends on it you have to make the choice, what ammo and weapon to use. But when it's all said and done, you are responsable for everything that was hit by one of your bullets.

Know whats past your target, what you will hit when some of your rounds go through the wall.
Who lives next to you, how meny people, where they probably are. Lots of questions that you probably won't or couldn't know, and there is a good chance you will hit someone/something you did not want to.

For home defense I will stick to a 12 guage with birdshot, it's going to be close range anyway, and it's probably the only thing that won't penitrate the wall.  

I was thinking the same thing while reading the thread in the General Forum about the IDF shooting at journalists.

Actually my house is built out of cinder blocks reinforced with rebar and poured concret. Ill use my AR in 5.56 but I worry about rounds coming back at me.