User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 1/11/2005 7:20:54 PM EDT
[#1]
I figure it doesn't matter if this stuff dries-up or not. Nothing wrong with having a few 1,000 rounds of quaility ammo sitting around. Picked-up 3 cases of XM193 for $307 out the door. That bumps me up to about 3,000 rounds. At the rate I've been able to get out and shoot, that should last me for years.
 I'll pray for zombies!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2005 4:16:10 AM EDT
[#2]
www.defensetech.org/archives/001317.html
An article relating to the shortage and the purchase of ammo by the US military from Taiwan. -Troy |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2005 4:28:45 AM EDT
[#3]
It looks like the 62 gr and up stuff on Ammunitionstore.com jumped up to $400.00 on avg per case of 1k
I believe a month ago it was about $269. Hey they got Maine Cartrige co. 55gr for a lot less, and for me that stuff shoots awesome, and its good brass. L8r |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2005 5:52:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Here is a article about mil ammo.
http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume3/january_2005/1_05_2.html |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2005 9:24:04 PM EDT
[#5]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2005 5:09:11 AM EDT
[#6]
Thanks
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2005 11:00:28 AM EDT
[#7]
I heard from the guy that runs the armory at Bisley here in the UK that an American "purchaser"from the .gov, came in last week and tried to make a very substantial purchase of 5.56 and 7.62 ammo. Now the NRA at Bisley have a lot of ammo in stock, but it wasn't enough for this guy. They pointed him in the direction of Radway Green. I hope you guys aren't going to buy up all our ammo  Mark |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2005 11:07:14 AM EDT
[#8]
Just found this new story on news.google.com....
US Army denies it is seeking to buy bullets from Taiwan www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=36058 |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2005 3:17:01 PM EDT
[#9]
 Better late then never. 
|
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2005 11:43:43 AM EDT
[#10]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/17/2005 11:25:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Nice find. I tried to find some stuff at the gunshow this weekend but all I found was some American Eagle, PMC, Wolf, and Olympic. Picked up some Wolf for plinking but I still want some XM193 for SHTF and it would be nice to have some nice ammo. Bigger gun shows are coming up though. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/18/2005 1:17:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Sportsman guide's Lake City 62 grain is back ordered until jan. 28. They still have the loose m855. The customer service rep said the stuff I ordered(back ordered) was boxed not loose.
Just a little info. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 5:39:48 AM EDT
[#13]
Ditto. Just bought 51 boxes of XM193 from Wideners. I plan to buy ammo as often as I can get away with it for a while and build up a supply for my 1-in-12 barreled AR. I think the Mil. Spec. 55 grain stuff is only going to get rarer and rarer... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 6:33:06 AM EDT
[#14]
Only stuff for $400/case that I saw was the Maine Cartridge Co. 62gr tracers. Other than that, $369 gets you a case of MCC 62gr Match HP. Everything else looks like it's priced halfway decent. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 8:12:22 AM EDT
[#15]
FYI Ammo was everywhere at the Indy 1500. Picked up a case of xm193 for $165 and a case of xm855 at $150 out the door!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 3:02:08 PM EDT
[#16]
I am not disagreeing that we may experience short term shortages, but this may alleviate some longer term fears (Alliant is the contractor who runs Lake City for the DoD)
ATK on Pace to Produce 1.2 Billion Small-caliber Rounds Minneapolis, Dec. 13, 2004 – Alliant Techsystems (NYSE: ATK), the nation’s premier small-caliber ammunition provider, has received orders in excess of $300 million from the U.S. Army Joint Munitions Command since the beginning of the government fiscal year on October 1. ATK will supply a mix of 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and .50 caliber ammunition. Deliveries from these orders are expected to be complete by Sept. 30, 2006. Since being awarded the operating rights to the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in 1999, ATK has teamed with the U.S. Army to modernize the facility and strengthen the critical U.S. domestic small-caliber ammunition industrial capability. These efforts, combined with ATK’s lean six sigma initiatives, have expanded production capacity at the plant to approximately 1.2 billion rounds annually. Additional investments planned by the Army and ATK are aimed at increasing annual capacity to support the anticipated Department of Defense demand of between 1.5 billion and 1.8 billion rounds by 2006. ATK is a $2.4 billion advanced weapon and space systems company employing 13,700 people in 23 states. News and information can be found on the Internet at www.atk.com. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 3:52:24 PM EDT
[#17]
The problem is that the military NEEDS at least 1.8 Billion rounds this year; even with LC's future expanded capacity, they'll be behind the curve. This has the Army (who is responsible for managing ammo for the entire military) looking for other solutions to fill the gap...
-Troy |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 3:53:03 PM EDT
[#18]
Gents, I've been sulking over my inability to get Winchester Q3131A or lake City XM193 ammo so I sent a note to ny supplier (Outdoor Marksman) and go this reply:
"We are subject to the demands of Winchester and Federal to fulfill government requirements first, this leaves us consumers wanting. I do however have a neat piece of information that I can share with you. As you know the Winchester Q3131A is loaded in Israel by IMI for Winchester as their Law Enforcement and Military ammunition. Winchester also has IMI in Israel load a commercial product, the part number is USA223R1A. The boxes and case look identical to the Q3131A, the only difference is the brass cases are polished, not raw. Here is a link to that product, I think you'll be just as happy with this as the Q3131A. http://www.outdoormarksman.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=223r1a Happy shooting, Stan OMC Sales" Anyone bought and shot this stuff? Sounds just as good, if not better, than Q3131A but is 25 cents/box more. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 5:49:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Luckily my dealer has both XM193 and Q3131A has some left in stock. I picked up 3K of the XM193 today so he still had 7 or 8K left, and about 15K of the Q3131A left. I just need more money now.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 6:14:32 PM EDT
[#20]
It's loaded to commerical (i.e., lower) pressures/velocities. It's great range ammo, but it isn't M193 spec ammo. -Troy |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 6:58:14 PM EDT
[#21]
I bought 5000 rounds of Guatemalan last month. Hot, hot, hot.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 6:59:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Just as a reminder or heads up, Botach has the 30-rd BOXED and LABELED M855 IMI available in 1200 round crate for $239.00 DELIVERED.
Don't know about anyone else, but I LOVE the IMI M855. I have some TZZ 97 so I will see how this batch matches up... I know some people have problems with Botach but IMI is IMI, I'll get it where I can get it... Rmpl  |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 11:08:38 PM EDT
[#23]
You know I live on a hard budget but i do pick up a few boxes of win for hell-mart when I get the chance. Now it don't have mil spec nothing and it is not the al exulted XM193, Q, or M855...but it feeds the boom stick and I belive when used properlyhatmy ammo stocks app. 5k currently. I will be laying my hands on a few k as soon as $ permitsheat,
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2005 2:28:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Went to the local fun show this morning in SF.. Miwall usually has a huge booth there fully stocked with q3131a and boxed LC along with the usual wolf and pmc etc. Today, the .223 display was a sorry looking site. No q3131a or boxed LC to speak of. When I asked the sales rep if/when they would be restocking.. he said "you're guess is as good as mine... the govt. has cut us off"
They had plenty of wolf, Rem, and PMC for sale, all at higher than normal prices along with some loose packed LC M855 and some greek surplus.. both priced higher than I would pay. They had a fair supply of win. white box 223R1 which will make good enough range ammo, but still overpriced. Gotta pay to play I guess...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2005 7:08:45 PM EDT
[#25]
gun show in Rochester a few weeks ago had the 300 round "battle packs" for $53 each I remember ordering a couple when they were under $40. Wish I had bought a ton of it back then as it was good stuff |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2005 1:27:50 AM EDT
[#26]
Hmmmmm. It really sounds to me like all this "downsizing" we have done since the end of the Cold War (and the onset of some hot ones) has really jumped up and bit us in several ways.
Troy, you know a great deal about ammo production. What would it take to reopen some of the old plants we closed? I know Twin Cities and Frankford Arsenal are just two of several former US Gov small arms ammo producers. I'm not sure how long these facilities have been out of that business. Would they need all new tooling? I assume that they likely would. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems to me that we need at least 1 other ammo plant comparble to Lake City cranking out ammo. Even if Lake City is eventually able to meet minimum capacity as far as production, IMHO, that isn't good enough. We need to have the means to produce much more ammo than the minimum necessary to sustain this fight. Hell, look at Vietnam. We were heavily involved there for 8 years or so and used far more ammo than we are using now. That was the days of full-auto M-16 and "spray and pray". Yet I never heard of any small arms ammo shortages then. How many plants were producing ammo in those days? Again, I'm not sure what the answer is. But if reopening one or more of the old plants isn't feasible, perhaps some ammo companies like Winchester, Remington, Black Hills, etc could produce mil spec loads in their own facilities to meet the demand. We obviously need to figure out something. -CH |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2005 6:30:24 AM EDT
[#27]
If anything at all remains of the old arsenals, it's just an empty building. The old loading machines were sold off to other countries or scrapped, but they were outdated anyway. IIRC, Twin Cities was shut down in the mid-70s, so we're talking 30 years ago when production ENDED, and we can only imagine when those machines were purchased.
The Army is looking into the possibility of opening another ammo plant, but like everything else, it's all about money, and justifying that money being spent on something that is *mostly* going to be surge capacity, and will probably spend much of its life running at very reduced capacity, but not very reduced cost. The only good thing is that the military is re-learning that in wartime, ammo and munitions are ALWAYS used at a much higher rate than is predicted, and that the entire job of the military is to put kenetic energy on targets. -Troy |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2005 3:41:15 PM EDT
[#28]
I must be overlooking the obvious but why can't the DOD contract with Winchester, Remmington and Federal to produce mil spec ammo during this time of increased need? It might cost more that ammo from Taiwan or whereever but it would support the domestic ammo manfacturing base.
Drue |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2005 6:23:28 PM EDT
[#29]
I have a case of WCC M855 . it is a case of 900 rounds on strippers in the cardboard. Looks like it is made for repacking the bandoleers. Traded a friend for it for some parts for a ar15 he wanted a few months ago, So I guess winchester still makes it for the govt. I would think. Was going to just repack some badoleers I picked up a few years ago and put it away in a few ammo cans for a rainy day. But if its worth it to keep it together I might consider trading it off for something I guess. I hate to think about carrying ammo around a gun show as that would get heavy and I do not want the hassle with shipping ammo so I gues it will go in a ammo can? I have around $150 in it I guess for the stuff I traded for. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2005 3:03:37 AM EDT
[#30]
I guess it may be a good time for me to finally to start reloading
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2005 1:49:22 PM EDT
[#31]
Because none of the domestic manufacturers have the equipment needed to manufacture ammo to Mil-Specs, and none of them are willing to spend millions in capital expenditures to buy them when the military won't give them a long-term contract. Without such a contract, there is no guarentee of a market for the end-product in the quantities that would ensure that the loan for the machines were paid for (including the interest) AND make a profit. -Troy |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2005 8:54:38 PM EDT
[#32]
I do not understand if winchester is not making ammo then who made the ammo marked with the nato stamp with WCC 04 on it? It is the ammo I mentioned earlier. I always thought that mark was the winchester mark for military ammo?
Please clear up what I have as I am confused or maybe I just misunderstood. Thanks Jon |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/25/2005 10:52:47 PM EDT
[#33]
That ammo was being manufactured by IMI in Israel and imported by Winchester. You would be REAL surprised to learn how much of the Winchester ammo that folks like us shoot is made by a foreign subcontractor. Much of the "white box" loads are either made entirely by Sellier & Bellot in the Czech Republic, or is assembled in the US using at least some S&B components. And, from 1986-1999, Winchester was selling Lake City-manufactured ammo as "white-box" loads, which is where most of the "Q-Loads" such as Q3131 came from. Olin, Winchester's parent company, had the contract to run Lake City for the military during those years. Winchester makes all of the "premium" loadings domestically, so if you're buying a Super-X or Supreme load, that's going to be totally US-made, unless the bullet in a specific load is a foreign design. But those premium loads are made in much smaller numbers than the stuff most AR15.commer's shoot. And they are made in rotations, so they may make a specific load for a month straight, and then not make that load again for several years, depending on demand. That's how come you may find one load everywhere for a while, and then a year or two later, no one has that load in stock. -Troy |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2005 1:00:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Troy,
Thanks for the response. I agree that during peacetime, there isn't a need for more ammo than LC can produce. But as is obvious, that all goes out the window in times of war. Therefore, it would make sense to have a second plant using low rate production, just in case we ever have a big demand for ammo. If we are using this much ammo now, how much would we be using in North Korea decided to invade South Korea? Or what if we got into a fight with the Chinese? Again, in times of peace we don't need that much ammo. But we need to have the facilities and equipment in place to dramatically increase production should that need arise. You just never know when such a day may come. If folks like us stock far more than we need and have reloading components in place for "what if" scenarios, the government would be well served to do the same. -CH |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2005 2:33:59 AM EDT
[#35]
I agree. Considering that the govt pisses away far more money on less worthy things (I won't get into that very long list), the least they could do is have several more facilities on stand-by. Or at low-moderate level production, and sell the ammo to the public.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2005 10:44:45 AM EDT
[#36]
I agree, but it's hard to justify spending money on something that's just going to sit there and run up further costs. IMO, they should give Olin an extended contract and a grant to buy Mil-Spec loading machines. That way, Olin/Winchester would not only be able to supply ammo to the military, but they'd also be able to use excess capacity for civilian ammo, which would help their profit margins and ensure that they are keeping the machines in working order.
But, that probably makes too much sense... -Troy |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2005 5:23:10 PM EDT
[#37]
I wonder how big the civilian market really is for genuine M193-spec ammo.
If we could convince one of the manufacturers that an ongoing deman was there, maybe they would be more motivated to retool. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/27/2005 6:41:07 AM EDT
[#38]
Worried about higher prices for mil spec ammo? You can't imagine how
lucky you still are. I am going to pay 535,- USD for 1200 rds. of new in box IMI M193. And since military/surplus ammo has usually no CIP certificate (for being sold to us mortals), I am lucky to get them at all. PS: No, that is not near the price of TAP (here) - which are 33,- USD/25rds. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/28/2005 6:45:02 AM EDT
[#39]
Sorry if it’s already been pointed out, but having just one ammo plant for the military is a huge risk, IMHO. It is a single point of failure. If something happens to that plant, our armed services are screwed. Hope that place is guarded pretty well.
Redundancy and contingency are wonderful things. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/28/2005 8:31:41 PM EDT
[#40]
Yes, but they are also expensive to buy and maintain, and, don't you remember what Klinton said about the "Peace Dividend" saving us money by allowing is to reduce our military infrastructure?  -Troy |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/29/2005 7:21:44 AM EDT
[#41]
The thing that concerns me is that the Iraq/Afghan situation isn't really even that big of a conflict in historical terms. What would happen if we really got in it (Vietnam, Korea, WWII type situations)? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/31/2005 10:05:58 AM EDT
[#42]
FWIW, Twin Cities, located immediately North of Minneapolis, up near the towns of Mounds View and Arden Hills, Minneapolis, has mostly been demolished. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/31/2005 1:58:00 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm not sure if this goes here or not....but KY Imports--www.kyimports.com has IMI M855 at about $8.50/30 round box. I don't know if this is a good price or not, but it's out there if anyone needs some. I just snagged a few hundred and the gent I spoke with said he had a "fair amount" left.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/1/2005 8:39:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Same response that I got from Miwall at the Portland show this last weekend. Not a case of XM193 or Q3131A anywhere. They didn't have that much 308 either only one case of Aussie and it was gone within 10 minutes. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2005 1:51:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Buy ammo whenever it is cheap, whether you need it or not, and you will never have to worry about these temporary shortages.
My ammo budget has been $300.00 to $500.00 a month since around 1995. My children's children will have trouble shooting all the M193 spec ammo stacked in my garage. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2005 3:53:34 PM EDT
[#46]
This link http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume3/january_2005/1_05_2.html
is a DOD article that addresses the Lake City limitations and reasons for the current ammo crisis, which frankly I thought were a bit overblown but NOW I'm headed to buy a couple thou rounds right here, now, just on general principles. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2005 5:47:27 PM EDT
[#47]
I wasn't paranoid until I read this, but now I just bought another case of of Lake City from Eric. I am willing to use Wolf in some of my AR's but not all of them.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/3/2005 8:53:07 AM EDT
[#48]
That's very sound thinking. It makes sense for a variety of other consumable supplies as well. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2005 2:24:14 PM EDT
[#49]
I wish I could start up an ammo plant in my state. That would be the nuts. But I guess I'm just dreaming.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2005 5:13:52 PM EDT
[#50]
Just got "LC 04" M193 from ammoman.
So, if the military is so short of ammo that they are buying overseas, why kick out all this FRESH M193 to the civilian market? Same brass for either M193 or M855... just different bullet. How can there be a shortage if Lake City is doing this? Don't make sense... Rmpl |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
Please don't let VA-gunnut see this. 
