Looks to me to be the same forging, suppose the stops just got milled off in the machining process.

Well...from personal experience with 'ol Ken, he's a jackass alright. I "pony-ed"  (pun intended) up some big bucks (big to me) for one of his 2003 M4 project "specials" last year. Called or emailed a couple of times to make sure payment stuff was taken care of and to check on progress. Tina was telling me everything was on track. I emailed Ken to make an additional request and he started spouting off how his defense contract stuff was taking priority an he wasn't sure when he'd get around to finishing the M4 projects. That's cool, but keep people informed (incl. his people) or better yet, make sure he can follow through on his commitments before taking on side work. I think a lot of what he was upset about was that his wife (I'm guessing that's who Tina is) didn't have a clue and was telling me that everything was on track, which made him look like an ass, and I was calling him on it. Anyhow, he didn't need my business either. I think it's kinda odd how he "doesn't need your business" when he screws up or can't follow through. Conveinient, huh? Dude needs some anger management and a clue.

I wish you guys would stop it with these debates, I can't decide what to buy.  Colt seems good.  But I don't want an M4.  I do want a chrome lined barrel.  I do want standard sized pins.  Bushmaster seems the best bet but then apparently quality isn't as great.  Damnit!!!!

Quoted: I wish you guys would stop it with these debates, I can't decide what to buy.  Colt seems good.  But I don't want an M4.  I do want a chrome lined barrel.  I do want standard sized pins.  Bushmaster seems the best bet but then apparently quality isn't as great.  Damnit!!!!

No one brand is perfect.  But odds are, if you go with something your budget can accomodate, you will be fine.  Any problems that any AR manufacturer may have are sporadic at best.  Odds are, if you get a Bushamaster, Colt, RRA, or Armalite, you will NOT get a defective gun (in any form).  

Quoted: Blah, blah, blah... <Snip>...

While scanning the latest posts in this thread I was trying to come up with the proper reaction to Zero's and MattLD's replies. Rather than using words (which have proven to be a waste of time with both of them) I have chosen a song.

Right click and "Save target as..." and then listen Zero's Hillbilly Love Theme As you listen, imagine the specific progression of Zero's factless blathering .

Whenever I hear it I whisper a prayer of thanks for the sheep and goats in Georgia who can breathe easy whenever Zero is preoccupied here

Edited to add:

Quoted: I refuse to take a side in this as CJ already knows what I think about all this brand-loyalty stuff.   But I will say this, a few of the people in here are about one step closer to turning into the 3rdtks of their favorite brand of ARs .....

Like 3rdtk, I am "in the business"-and no, I don't work for Colt. I am absolutely hell bent on consistent build quality for a reason, and that's because QC and product testing is what I do for a living. If my division turned the other cheek at some of the trash that so many people here defend my company would go out of business. What's even funnier is that Zero is a fan and owner of weapons produced by the very company I work for.

Also like 3rdtk, the autonomy of being able to say whatever I want here is precisely why I don't wear my resume like a badge. My views are purely my own, but some of the lemmings around here wouldn't see it that way.

You, on the other hand reached your conclusions from a buddy who works in a gunstore. You also think that someone's preference of one brand over another is nothing more than mindless brand loyalty.

How exactly can I have an intelligent conversation with someone too ignorant to recognize the difference? It's for this reason that I shouldn't bother responding to this sort of nonsense. To be blunt I have too much fun observing how some of the minds work around here to not participate.

Quoted: Quoted: Blah, blah, blah... <Snip>... I Like Pie.

Hey! So do I, CJ! Pie is Good!

This is getting comical.

The thread reads "YOU CAN BUY A COLT MT6400C LOWER ASSY NEW!"

Cool thanks for the info!

Would I pay more for a better lower?

OH YES!

As Stickman once spewed off to me in another thread.
I'm just another gun dork looking to increase my coolness factor!

So if you don't want to pay for a Colt then buy something else!

We can ALL agree on the fact we want the BEST PART for the BEST DEAL

Whoa there CJ, when did I ever say I was talking about you being a 3rdtk of Colt products?  Whatever inference you got from my post you made up in your mind.  I was not talking about anyone in particular.  What I said was just a general statement.  

And no, I did not get my opinions from a buddy at a gunstore.  I got those opinions MYSELF from handling those rifels MYSELF through him.  He could preach about one brand and I could not care.  All those experiences I have had handling and inspecting ARs is first hand info.  Not some second-hand bullshit.

And why do you go straight to insulting someone's intelligence?  You do not know me and therfore do not know how smart/dumb I am.  

Quoted: And why do you go straight to insulting someone's intelligence?  You do not know me and therfore do not know how smart/dumb I am.

It would seem, that is the only way he knows how to present his opinions.
Just a guess, that's all I've seen from him to those that don't agree with him.

What's most amusing is we are at this point because of this joke on page 1:
"I guess the pony picture costs $249.  "

That's it. Someone needs anger management.

Aw, who cares! He said he liked pie!

~ s0ulzer0

Well I do not presume to know what he needs exactly, but my statement he quoted was just a general warning (and sarcastically at that), hence the emoticon I used.  

I do not want any part of the conversation because it does not effect me.  But it does amaze me how I simply offer a little joking advice to people getting in a somewhat heated conversation to watch out and it gets all blown out of proportion.  

Anyway, back on topic, if the lowers drop in price, I may need to get one.  

Quoted: Whoa there CJ, when did I ever say I was talking about you being a 3rdtk of Colt products?  Whatever inference you got from my post you made up in your mind.  I was not talking about anyone in particular.  What I said was just a general statement.   And no, I did not get my opinions from a buddy at a gunstore.  I got those opinions MYSELF from handling those rifels MYSELF through him.  He could preach about one brand and I could not care.  All those experiences I have had handling and inspecting ARs is first hand info.  Not some second-hand bullshit. And why do you go straight to insulting someone's intelligence?  You do not know me and therfore do not know how smart/dumb I am.

I never said that you called me the Colt version of 3rdrk. I mentioned his name purely because he and I are in similiar situations in terms of being cagey about who we work for.

MattLD, when I go off on a tear I tend to get a little brutal-and for that I apologize. When I go to work every day I have one simple goal in mind: to make sure that every weapon is assembled and prepared as though someone's life may one day depend on it.

Those words may sound a little cheesy, but I'll be damned if someone is going to get hurt or killed because my company let a halfassed weapon go out the door. It is for this reason that assembly shortcuts, poor (or nonexistant) QA programs, or inferior materials in a firearm bothers me so profoundly.

There are still companies who take a measure of pride in the quality of their products. Colt an HK for example are two such companies. You guys can hate their politics or whatever-but when a finished product goes out the door the chances are very good that it was built properly. Neither company is perfect-Colt has had recent compensators come off and HK had a bad run of USP firing pins. That being said those problems are the exception rather than the rule.

There is simply nothing worse than a manufacturer who knowingly cuts corners that could compromise the safety of the consumer who uses their products. We aren't building floorlamps here, we're building guns for Christ's sake. Almost as bad is the consumer who makes excuses for that manufacturer. By accepting a second rate product they are doing their part to make sure that the standard is never raised.

I hope that as enthusiasts we never have to use our beloved ARs in a life threatening situation. If we ever do though god forbid, don't we deserve to have the best available?

When someone says "all brands are the same", or my favorite "you're just paying for the pony" they have no fucking clue what they are talking about, and I can say that with professional certainly. What's worse is that someone may heed their advice, buy a second rate product, and end up getting hurt. That kind of bull is the pinnacle of irresponsibility.

Maybe I'm really stupid but...


I posted a thread a while back about quality lowers and most people said Bushmaster, Colt, RRA, DPMS, Armalite all make around the same quality lowers.  I think DPMS finish was said to be better? Also lowers aren't as vital to reliability as the uppers are.

(Start laughing at my stupidity now.)  

Quoted: Quoted: Whoa there CJ, when did I ever say I was talking about you being a 3rdtk of Colt products?  Whatever inference you got from my post you made up in your mind.  I was not talking about anyone in particular.  What I said was just a general statement.   And no, I did not get my opinions from a buddy at a gunstore.  I got those opinions MYSELF from handling those rifels MYSELF through him.  He could preach about one brand and I could not care.  All those experiences I have had handling and inspecting ARs is first hand info.  Not some second-hand bullshit. And why do you go straight to insulting someone's intelligence?  You do not know me and therfore do not know how smart/dumb I am.   I never said that you called me the Colt version of 3rdrk. I mentioned his name purely because he and I are in similiar situations in terms of being cagey about who we work for. MattLD, when I go off on a tear I tend to get a little brutal-and for that I apologize. When I go to work every day I have one simple goal in mind: to make sure that every weapon is assembled and prepared as though someone's life may one day depend on it. Those words may sound a little cheesy, but I'll be damned if someone is going to get hurt or killed because my company let a halfassed weapon go out the door. It is for this reason that assembly shortcuts, poor (or nonexistant) QA programs, or inferior materials in a firearm bothers me so profoundly. There are still companies who take a measure of pride in the quality of their products. Colt an HK for example are two such companies. You guys can hate their their politics or whatever-but when a finished product goes out the door the chances are very good that it was built properly. Neither company is perfect-Colt has had recent compensators come off and HK had a bad run of USP firing pins. That being said those problems are the exception rather than the rule. There is simply nothing worse than a manufacturer who knowingly cuts corners that could compromise the safety of the consumer who uses their products. We aren't building floorlamps here, we're building guns for Christ's sake. Almost as bad is the consumer who makes excuses for that manufacturer. By accepting a second rate product they are doing their part to make sure that the standard is never raised. I hope that as enthusiasts we never have to use our beloved ARs in a life threatening situation. If we ever do though god forbid, don't we deserve to have the best available? When someone says "all brands are the same", or my favorite "you're just paying for the pony" they have no fucking clue what they are talking about, and I can say that with professional certainly. What's worse is that someone may heed their advice, buy a second rate product, and end up getting hurt. That kind of bull is the pinnacle of irresponsibility.

CJan - Now that post, even I can respect.

~ s0ulzer0

Here's a little story:  

When I decided to buy an AR15, I thought that I would be safe with any of the "good" AR manufacturers.  I thought about Colt, but the guy that I buy firearms from only had Bushys, so I bought two Bushy lowers from him.  Shortly thereafter, I purchased a Bushy Dissipator upper.  I was pleased with the fit and finish, plus the rifle worked great, never skipped a beat unless I used substandard mags.  

Well, one day I decided to put my upper on the other lower to just give it whirl.  Same as the first-perfect, no problems.  Then one day I read a thread at Tactical Forums about specific AR problems.  One of the topics discussed concerned the buffer face being battered by the buffer retainin pin.  I thought, Ha! not my Bushy.  My Bushy is perfect.  Well, lo and behold, I check my second lower and saw that it had about three "dents" that matched the buffer retaining pin perfectly.  WTF?  I thought to myself.  Luckily, my other lower did not have this problem.  Well, as you could imagine, I was a bit disappointed, so I called Bushmaster.

The tech on the phone told me that this was "normal" wear and that the lower was fine.  Armed with the information from Tactical Forums (THANKS TWEAK!), I explained that it was NOT normal and tha the only wear on the buffer face should be from the bolt carrier contacting the buffer face, creating a round circle of wear (wish i had a pic to post), and that the buffer should NOT BE HITTING the buffer retaining pin, which indicated that the pin hole was made too close to the buffer tube opening---BASICALLY MEANING THAT THE LOWER WAS OUT OF SPEC IN THIS AREA.  Again, the tech stated that nothing was wrong so I gave up.

Several weeks later, while at the range, a couple of guys with AR's show up.  Long story short, I inspected their rifles, 2 COLTS and 1 BUSHY, the colts had not "dents" but the Bushy did.  

So, when I read someone's post stating that the lowers don't matter or that they are not as important, all I could do is shake my head.

If I could buy another lower--which I can't at the moment due to stupid state laws--I would definitely buy a Colt.   But don't get me wrong, I still love my Bushy, but I just gotta keep an eye on the second lower, cuz those dents on the buffer tube kinda concern me.  Who knows if it'll get worse, possibly affecting reliability.  

Sorry for the long post!

Here's a little tid bit from the TAC FORUM:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted:
2320rds through doesn't have any dings or dents,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd call that a good test. This is why you should always check that the buffer is pressing against the back of the bolt carrier when opening (shotgunning) and closing the rifle. You can feel the added, or reduced, tension when the buffer makes, or loses, contact with the rear of the bolt carrier.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
flaking off a bit on the extreme edge (about a quarter of an inch).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You'll rarely see that on Colt guns. That is caused by a angular mismatch between the bolt carrier and the buffer face, one side hits first and the wear becomes radial as the buffer rotates from shot to shot. The wear can also be caused by a burr, or high spot, on the back of the bolt carrier.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ONE GOOD SOLID DENT on the face of the buffer (its on the portion of the buffer where it's flat and not circular)!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it looks like an imprint of the buffer detent (height, width) then that's what it is. Once or twice useage will cause that kind of damage if the upper was goofy. A caveat, a misplaced detent pin hole will cause this too. The blueprints with dimensions are online at biggerhammer.net. As for replacing it, no, not necessary. First, figure out what was causing the buffer to sit too far forward and fix that. A couple of dents aren't going to hurt the rifle, they add character, and now you know what to look for on other ARs. All Colt parts will, should, fit other rifles given that you order the proper pin sizes. I know nobody uses them but I have to add this just in case, bolt on muzzle brakes are not as sure a bet due to the differing diameters of various maker's barrels.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for a most enlightening post.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're welcome UK, it's rare that I get to add anything useful to this forum I appreciate the chance to help out.

www.tacticalforums.com/

Search in "Custom Guns"---AR DEFICIENCIES.  A good read.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Whoa there CJ, when did I ever say I was talking about you being a 3rdtk of Colt products?  Whatever inference you got from my post you made up in your mind.  I was not talking about anyone in particular.  What I said was just a general statement.   And no, I did not get my opinions from a buddy at a gunstore.  I got those opinions MYSELF from handling those rifels MYSELF through him.  He could preach about one brand and I could not care.  All those experiences I have had handling and inspecting ARs is first hand info.  Not some second-hand bullshit. And why do you go straight to insulting someone's intelligence?  You do not know me and therfore do not know how smart/dumb I am.   I never said that you called me the Colt version of 3rdrk. I mentioned his name purely because he and I are in similiar situations in terms of being cagey about who we work for. MattLD, when I go off on a tear I tend to get a little brutal-and for that I apologize. When I go to work every day I have one simple goal in mind: to make sure that every weapon is assembled and prepared as though someone's life may one day depend on it. Those words may sound a little cheesy, but I'll be damned if someone is going to get hurt or killed because my company let a halfassed weapon go out the door. It is for this reason that assembly shortcuts, poor (or nonexistant) QA programs, or inferior materials in a firearm bothers me so profoundly. There are still companies who take a measure of pride in the quality of their products. Colt an HK for example are two such companies. You guys can hate their their politics or whatever-but when a finished product goes out the door the chances are very good that it was built properly. Neither company is perfect-Colt has had recent compensators come off and HK had a bad run of USP firing pins. That being said those problems are the exception rather than the rule. There is simply nothing worse than a manufacturer who knowingly cuts corners that could compromise the safety of the consumer who uses their products. We aren't building floorlamps here, we're building guns for Christ's sake. Almost as bad is the consumer who makes excuses for that manufacturer. By accepting a second rate product they are doing their part to make sure that the standard is never raised. I hope that as enthusiasts we never have to use our beloved ARs in a life threatening situation. If we ever do though god forbid, don't we deserve to have the best available? When someone says "all brands are the same", or my favorite "you're just paying for the pony" they have no fucking clue what they are talking about, and I can say that with professional certainly. What's worse is that someone may heed their advice, buy a second rate product, and end up getting hurt. That kind of bull is the pinnacle of irresponsibility. CJan - Now that post, even I can respect. ~ s0ulzer0

Great!

Throughout all of my "battles" here and elsewhere, anger is not the word that best describes my emotions. Frustration perhaps, amusement definitely, a touch of sadness maybe, but not anger. More than anything I want all of us to have access to the best tools available.

One thing that I am angry about is that my own beloved company is unwilling to market a civilian carbine. While I understand their rationale I still disagree with the decision.

Oh well

Quoted: www.tacticalforums.com/ Search in "Custom Guns"---AR DEFICIENCIES.  A good read.

Here is the thread you are referring to: AR15 deficiencies

Quoted: Quoted: Whoa there CJ, when did I ever say I was talking about you being a 3rdtk of Colt products?  Whatever inference you got from my post you made up in your mind.  I was not talking about anyone in particular.  What I said was just a general statement.   And no, I did not get my opinions from a buddy at a gunstore.  I got those opinions MYSELF from handling those rifels MYSELF through him.  He could preach about one brand and I could not care.  All those experiences I have had handling and inspecting ARs is first hand info.  Not some second-hand bullshit. And why do you go straight to insulting someone's intelligence?  You do not know me and therfore do not know how smart/dumb I am.   I never said that you called me the Colt version of 3rdrk. I mentioned his name purely because he and I are in similiar situations in terms of being cagey about who we work for. MattLD, when I go off on a tear I tend to get a little brutal-and for that I apologize. When I go to work every day I have one simple goal in mind: to make sure that every weapon is assembled and prepared as though someone's life may one day depend on it. Those words may sound a little cheesy, but I'll be damned if someone is going to get hurt or killed because my company let a halfassed weapon go out the door. It is for this reason that assembly shortcuts, poor (or nonexistant) QA programs, or inferior materials in a firearm bothers me so profoundly. There are still companies who take a measure of pride in the quality of their products. Colt an HK for example are two such companies. You guys can hate their politics or whatever-but when a finished product goes out the door the chances are very good that it was built properly. Neither company is perfect-Colt has had recent compensators come off and HK had a bad run of USP firing pins. That being said those problems are the exception rather than the rule. There is simply nothing worse than a manufacturer who knowingly cuts corners that could compromise the safety of the consumer who uses their products. We aren't building floorlamps here, we're building guns for Christ's sake. Almost as bad is the consumer who makes excuses for that manufacturer. By accepting a second rate product they are doing their part to make sure that the standard is never raised. I hope that as enthusiasts we never have to use our beloved ARs in a life threatening situation. If we ever do though god forbid, don't we deserve to have the best available? When someone says "all brands are the same", or my favorite "you're just paying for the pony" they have no fucking clue what they are talking about, and I can say that with professional certainly. What's worse is that someone may heed their advice, buy a second rate product, and end up getting hurt. That kind of bull is the pinnacle of irresponsibility.

Agreed.  But still, I would wish that from now on that you at least refrain (at first ) from being demeaning.  That really gets me fired up.

As to your post I deeply respect it.  Your job is pinnacle to someone's life and hence should be done with the utmost competency and concern.  I just tire of people who only have tried one brand (not you CJ) and hence are willing to bash other companies without even trying the other products.  I feel like that if you have not tried it first hand, you should not talk bad about it.  

Glad we can reach an agreement on that.  

Urbankaos04,

Thanks for making me more aware of the importance of a quality lower.  I haven't had these problems on my DPMS lower but I would like to know where to look for this wearing that you described.

Thanks

M11293

Quoted: Urbankaos04, Thanks for making me more aware of the importance of a quality lower.  I haven't had these problems on my DPMS lower but I would like to know where to look for this wearing that you described. Thanks M11293

I'm not Urban, but maybe I can help ya.  Look at the face of your buffer.  If you see dents along the very edge, they are being caused by the buffer hitting the buffer retainer pin.  The buffer is being allowed to come too far forward either because the retainer pin hole is too far back or because the barrel is set too far forward in the upper.  A little wear on the face is ok such as scraping near the center, but dents are definitely bad as they can lead to peening and the buffer jamming in the buffer tube.  That would be an extreme case, but it has happened...to a DPMS no less.

Are DPMS known for this problem?

Quoted: Are DPMS known for this problem?

Not necessarily.  An example of it happening to a DPMS was mentioned in this thread.

HOT DOG!!!    I got to get one  of  these.

I would actually like to purchase one of these lowers but I would like to have all the info before I give him a call because it sounds like he is a dick and my temper will not let me talk to dicks for very long.  

Anyway, do you guys know if he sells the lower with parts kit installed WITHOUT the stock assembly?  If so, how much?

Thanks,
James

I bought the whole rifle from Bachman Guns.  They have the best price of anybody I know of that actually has these rifles to sell.  Got it for $900.  Then I parted it out, sold the parts for about $900 and kept the lower.

There is another outfit that will sell you the lower half, think it is Hoplite.