+1

"Parts" guns can be better than any top name brand as long as the parts are high quality and as stated above, in spec.

I guess I mind as well weigh in.

I bought a parts gun with all top of the line parts.  However, the noob that put it together didnt put the buffer retainer, or the buffer retainer spring back in when he upgraded the stock. I tore the rifle down prior to shooting it but didnt notice this as the buffer was resting against the threads (i guess not sure why it didnt come out).  Anyway, a wasted trip to the range and a few days waiting on the part from brownells and were up and running.  While waiting I did a thorough breakdown and discovered a few other minor oversights that were easily overcome.

My point is, I got a good deal on an AR with some quality parts.  The guy who put it together should have been more careful, but it was easily overcome.  I should have been more careful and did a thorough breakdown before I put live ammo in it.  Shame on me

My new AR uses a RRA lower and an Model 1 A3 16" upper.  Its a parts gun and oh how I love it so . . .

La Rue Tactical, Magpul,LMT,VLTOR,Tango Down,BCM,Troy,Sampson,Yankee Hill,PRI Precision,Spikes,Badger,Krieger,Mike Rock,Bartlein,Lorthar Walther,CMT-Stag....not to mention Brownells... plus many more makers of high quality manufacturers came into the business with inovations-inventions "parts" for the "after-market"

In a sense any AR that has any non factory parts on it is a "Franken Gun" just any bike or truck with aftermarket parts is a "Franken" ride...

"Franken" parts can turn "50 Cent"  into the "$6,000,000 Man.....so to speak

Ok yea I was pretty sure you were the one that said this before but wasn't positive.

I know you have said you see a lot of bravo company uppers in your class'. By chance have you noticed if a lot of them are on factory lowers like bcm, lmt, sw, etc or on ones people have assembled them selfs?

Depends on the parts and depends on the armorer who built it.  I was also going to reference the What Parts Break in a Carbine Course? thread, but I see the main contributor to that has already chimed in.  

Shelby GT500

The "Franken Mustang"

Why?, Because many there are who care not to venture into the great unknown.   And in a great many cases...with good reason!

I've read that thread. And re-read it. Which is why a BCM MPI bolt was the choice.

I'd be curious to know what the failure rate/percentage and types of failures occur when a) you're running a top-shelf MPI Bolt Carrier Group and b) paying strict attention to the MEAL formula.

The whole premise of a mechanical design is to allow for minimum tolerance parts to function with a mating maximum tolerance part and vice a versa. No question 'hand fitting' parts for the best fit is the way to go. But if properly designed, and all the parts are "in-spec", the design should function without failure regardless of which end of the tolerance the various parts are....

Me too, its the only way to be sure its built right.

Maybe my mentality is different than some, but when I build a "frankengun" –– I do it to buy the best components possible, not to build a cheaper rifle.  My frankenguns are 2-3x more expensive than factory guns..

I agree wholeheartedly.  Shit, half the fun of this platform is that you can build it yourself.

I ALWAYS use quality parts!  My most recent build was on an Armalite receiver, with Armalite 2-stage tactical trigger group LPK, Magpul MOE grip and stock on a VLTOR tube.  The upper, barrel, and BCG came from Bravo, I am using a Daniel Defense 12.0 Lite Rail and Troy front and rear BUIS, Smith Vortex on the muzzle.  

When I do a build, I do it the way I want it.  If I ever sell it, whoever buys it is going to get a good deal on a quality build.

I always use a torque wrench, and I alway run a headspace guage.  I don't mess around.

In addition to the bolt, a quality barrel with in-spec chamber is a high-priority. Many that claim to be 5.56 NATO are not which could lead to issues with function/reliability.

Had FFL order a complete LMT lower from the LMT website
I order a complete LMT M4 upper From LMT website along with PR-4 1pt mount ( btw had no idea what P.R. stood for back then 05) LOL



Do you rank this as a Frankengun?

I dont since I didnt really add any parts to it?

But I do rank my other Spare M4 as a frankengun
LMT M4 upper order from Paul at BCM also came with CMT BCG wich I thought was STRANGE
VLTOR telestock/bushy lower with  bushy LPK( lower built in 2001)
IFFYtech 551F & arms40

+1
I wont ever buy a  HB M4

Takes the fun out of it.


The stripped forged lower to me they are about the same
I do care about the LPK used and Stock/telestock

After Looking at DPMS LPK and CMT/STAG/Bushmaster
They seem to me about the same

I wonder if they even make the LPK?
maybe  they order out.

In general, with reliability and function off of the table . . . People buy/build what is within their budget, initially. Eventually, they will buy/build/upgrade to a better unit. It does not have to be right or wrong. That is simply how the bullet tumbles.

Now, with reliability and function inserted back in to the equation . . . Personally, I would never purchase or build anything using less than time proven and tested components from a reputable manufacturer. Even then, the said have been known to fail, which is relative to everything.

I don't know anyone that has a complete name brand AR.

Regarding DPMS LPKs, I had a conversation with a highly respected builder/supplier on this site. (I have never heard an I'll word about this man) He claims there isn't anything wrong with DPMS LPKs and that the concern voiced here is a lot to do about nothing. He uses them all the time in his builds that people on this site rave about.

I've personally never used a DPMS LPK. Not for any doubts of quality but because I've always used others. I have no opinion on DPMS parts because I haven't used any.  I did find it interesting that some of the highest regarded weapons available are running these LPKs though with no complaints and only praise.

FWIW

Out of the seven AR's that I own, only two are factory built: a Colt 6920 and a LWRC M6A2. The other five are Frankin-built, all using quality parts

Here are two example of my Frankin-built gus:

(1)
Noveske 18" barrel, lower receiver, and front/rear BUIS, Denny' s M-4 Upper, Larue 13.2 Rail, LMT Full Auto BCG and Charging Handle, Vortex Flash hider, Magpul ACS and MIAD

or my last build:

(2)
Fulton Armory Lower, Colt M-4 14.5 barrel w/pinned YHM Phantom Flash hider, JD Machine upper w/M-4 feed ramps, Larue 7.0 rail,  LMT Full Auto BCG and Charging Handle, Magpul MOE, CTR, MBUIS, and RVG

The thing I like about Frankin-builds is that you get to choose the parts that you like plus the fact that you built it. Oh, don't get me wrong: I like my Colt and LWRC, but I am very proud of the builds that I made in my garage knowing that I used Tier 1 parts.

BTW: I headspace all my AR's with a Colt 5.56MM headspace gauge and torque all the barrels per Specs. My FAL's and AK's builds get the same treatment

I've seen a few with either out of spec parts or something that broke very early. One was a broken bolt catch in the first 500 rounds another was the buffer retainer pin. Both of those issues should be considered out of the norm. Triggers also have not been as good as others although I haven't gone through enough parts kits to really comment on trends. I did use a dpms parts kit on my 20 inch ar for a while before replacing the entire lower with a bravo company one(upper was bcm and wanted them to match). Didn't have a problem with the kit.

Every one of mine is from parts.  Zero defects, 100% reliability.  



Why?  Because I want standard parts, not bastard diameter pins that one manufacturer uses because they fear someone putting full auto parts.  

My  only stock  AR I own is a  1982  SP-1.  everything  after that  has  been  "parts'  guns.  They all work  as well or better than the SP-1.  I would never  consider  buying a stock  AR  again because I would jsut be paying for  parts that I am going to  replace  to make the  weapon   the way i want it !

Not trying to be rude or anything of that sort, but I'm curious....How do the parts guns work better than the SP-1? Is it a function thing or an ergonomic thing?

having worked on an assembly line for a short time I have come to the belief that an employee whos burnt out on a friday afternoon isnt going to pay the same level of attention on a build as a guy who spent his hard earned dollars and time to get the right parts that he wanted and enjoys the build almost as much as shooting it.
of course i just bought a lapping tool for upper receivers because it sounded like a fun extra step to do to make the build last longer

All AR's are parts guns, all of mine are and they all work great, and I have put all of them (and some for others) together myself from, PARTS!!!!....<><....:)

Some AR snobs may think thier AR is not a parts gun because they think, or have been told, that all or most of the parts in it have been manufactured by the same company(!!!!!)...so even if that were true (it's not) whay is thier AR, a bunch of parts, not a parts gun???

LMT complete rifles were on a 6 month backlog at the time of Obama's inauguration, so I bought an upper from Rainier arms (they threw in a free set of noveske handguards and a charging handle), then the lower, then the BCG, then the buis. 100% LMT.

I had a complete rifle during the rush at 100$ less than normal price. I waited, patiently, and trusted RA when they said they were getting lowers in soon, and used the email notification.

When one popped up, I had my card out, ready.

Had I waited for a complete rifle I'd have been waiting a long time. My next rifle will be a complete one though.

I havent read all 4 pages of this post but arent all ARs are franken guns? who makes all there own parts? In a franken gun you get to choose your own quality. You can spend $2000+ on a top tier AR just to find out they use a 3rd tier LPK in it.

We did more than laugh. I NFE'd him...

Like stated many times, it comes down to what you want to spend, and the time you spend into making sure the rifle will work. Period.

Quality components, proper assembly, and doing it right make the world of difference.

Cheap-ass, Chinese garbage AR parts are not welcome on my guns. Piss poor.

 Retro = quality !

If I buy a whole bunch of parts from diffrent sources and sub contractors and assemble them correctly, then my guns are Useless Hobby Franken Guns. If I get my 02/07 FFL and become a "manufacturer", buy a whole bunch of parts from diffrent sources and sub contractors and assemble them correctly, they are now "Quality Factory Guns". Give me a motherfuckin break. The process of suppliers and sub contractors is how %95 of the "Recommended Quality Manufacturers" get the parts to "make" their guns. The diffrence between them and me is a $500 Govt permision slip, and 15 ladies on an assembly line. Oh, and I actually give a shit about the end result.

Accurate and well-said!  Anybody who thinks GM made every part on an Impala SS is mis-informed.

This assumes any of the AR mills make anything close to these AR's.  


Some of us like our guns to be little off the beaten path.
















 
 

A manufacturer is selling a "rifle system" built to "their" specification.  A "parts" gun is built with "commodity" parts with an unknown or often unknowable pedigree.

bah! my "parts gun" has been doing fine for 24k rounds.

nothing wrong with "parts guns" as long as you use quality parts in the assembly.



assembling a basic AR rifle does not require a degree, read the TM and get the right tools and within 45 minutes you have a rifle ready for the range.

The problem is that often a parts gun doesn't have a real good list of exactly where the parts came from.  Can you get that from a Manufacturer? No. They won't say either, it's "proprietary."

There's not much to the claim that a Manufacturer can use parts that are a bit smaller or larger to fit things together. What pictures I've seen of the Colt benches don't show multiple parts bins labeled +/- .010 or such.

Having worked at a gov't contract manufacturer, the parts coming in were examined and measured to be in spec, or rejected. From that point on, things got assembled, and the final product inspected. Do the first inspections right, and all the labor and hand fitting doesn't happen. It's a loss of labor and profit. You don't make profit fidgeting with a few thousandths off, or hand fitting. That's what Winchester eliminated in 1964, folks.

Go look at the photos of the Colt work benches in the NYTimes articles. I don't see a bunch of files, vises, and dust, or mic's littering the tables. It's not a gunsmith putting together a custom African double, it's a commodity weapon built by the literal millions. Most parts in it are commodity items mass produced. Somebody post a photo of the Colt spring winding machine, or screw thread maker? Remember, they don't even forge their platters. HOw many hundreds of subcontractors supplied the Chevelle SS? (Does it help to mention a 289 Cobra - the essential Frankengun of all motorcars - could blow it's doors off in every category?)

And we haven't even gone into the foreign licensed sources required by their government to sell them the M16. Contracts over, do you shut down the plant? I doubt it. Where do those excess parts turn up? In the best market worldwide, America. You can import parts even if you can't import the gun.

Goes back to, do they tell us where the parts came from?  Not so much. Who knows, you may have been trusting an Israeli LPK or Korean BCG all this time. Unless you saw it come off American based machinery, you really don't know. Likely Colt M4's are Berry Compliant, I would expect dead silence if you ask a maker to say which model is or isn't.

The quintessential American combat knife of the Vietnam era was the Gerber Mk II. Every one had imported Japanese blade, not something you bragged about in 1970.

Alright I'm ignorant, what's NFE'd?

it was all started by the colt fanboys. according to them anything else isn't good to go. now you have the bcm, lmt, spikes crowd. even though spikes has yet to prove they are mil-spec.i stand corrected, spikes posted the documentation and their shit is good to go!



i've got a similar build as yours only it's a2. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=508195



bushmaster lightweight barrels are good to do. so they are batched tested.... big deal. watch the travis haley vid from fallujah. his bushy barrel was putting hadji down for a dirt nap at some pretty good distance..... and it didn't blow up!



my favorite "parts gun". good luck knocking this build fanboys!







lothar walther nitrocaburized dmr barrel .223 wylde chamber w/ matching bolt

set screw fsb from fulton armoy

a2 flash hider and washer from midway

daniel defense 12.0 m4 rail

knights armament rail covers

bcm bolt carrier

cmt upper reciever

rock river lower

rock river lpk

bushmaster a2 buttstock, buffer, spring , and tube

colt carry handle from 6920

Not Fucking Ever
Meaning that person will NFE be allowed to take a class from him again.  Anyone on the NFE list will likely have their name shared with other instructors so they know not to waste their time with that person.  Then again, if you get NFE'd you probably didn't really want to learn anyway.



I completely agree that using unknown or cheap parts is not the way to go for any gun that you're going to depend on in any way.  

However, there seems to be a backlash against homebuilt guns lately - regardless of the parts used.  I've even seen it suggested that building your own lower and putting on a complete upper will result in something that won't hold up.  

I put my own lpks in, so I will surely die...any time now....

A manufacturer is selling a "rifle system" built to "their" specification.  A "parts" gun is built with "commodity" parts with an unknown or often unknowable pedigree.
[/quote]

Ok, they get to pick the parts instead of you, the builder/owner.  There isn't much custom with an AR.  Some higher end builders have some tricks to assemble their uppers to get slightly better accuracy, but the AR is modular and "open architecture".

After you build one, you probably won't be going back to factory build.

Which is absolute lunacy. Wherever this attitude is coming from, it sure as shit makes absolutely no sense. A BCM BCG that Paul inserts into an upper, is no different than a BCM BCG that I insert into an upper. You get the idea.

Ok, I have Pat Rogers on one side and NEARLY everyone else on the other.

In Pat's defense, apparently he really had a shithook of a guy attending with the $400 AR. That being said, aside from that one instance, I'd still like to see a little more than "parts rifles don't seem to do as well" in classes. I would like to see more as in "parts rifles don't seem to do as well because...". At least that would give us something to go on.

He did. He talked about the extractor being crap and then his bolt breaking in half.



Other common points of failure: Unstaked gas keys coming loose. Unstaked buffer tubes coming loose and the buffer retainer + spring getting loose. Commerical buffer tubes breaking at the threads (the weakest point) rendering the rifle unusable without a new tube.



 

That was on the cheap AR.

Your last paragraph was what I was looking for. Using quality components *should* reduce a lot of these failures. The fact
that they did not come from the same manufacturer should be immaterial.

Let's not get silly.

I require that students bring a serviceable gun.
Period.

Appx 70% of my students are professionals. Therefore they bring what is issued.
Not all are issued good guns.
When i get a team of 28 with 28 hobby guns that don't work, that is a clue.
When i get a team of 7 with 7 non working hobby guns, that is also a clue.

I see what works, and what doesn't.

From my perspective, i don't care what YOU buy or use.
What i am concerned with is that it is serviceable.

I have worked  at a place that had a student population that was gentile and uneducated. We had a lot of "But my gun works perfectly" . Or, "It worked flawlessly yesterday".

With people now paying attention to AAR's, we se a better educated crew coming to class and that makes my life easier.

Where we see issues are people who are clueless, who believe all parts are the same and standards are stupid.
Their guns will often have problems.

But we see fewer of them now as they either become better educated or they go elsewhere.

Any gu, made by any manufacturer can fail.
That includes guys who bang guns together on the kitchen table.

What i look at is the long term- 10k rds or more.

Short answer.
Do what you want to do. But be realistic in your expectations

So at what point should I feel "safe" about the reliability of my parts AR.  I've put a couple thousand rounds through it and shoot two or three times a month.  I've taken it camping with me and gotten it dirty.  I have had no malfunctions to date including doing rapid fire "mag dumps."  I would like to attend a carbine class in the near future but would not want to show up and have my rifle "crap out" on me.

I guess my question for Mr. Pat Rogers or anyone else experienced enough to provide a good answer is: regardless if a gun is a parts gun or factory gun, what would be a proper "test period" to ensure a weapon will function as needed before attending a class?

Thanks.

In a class in Aug we put four brand new unfired BCM guns up and have had no problems.

A gun made to spec does not need a break in period- just lube.

I am comfortable with what i use, and have no problem doing this- and have done it over the years.

YMMV, depending on what you are using

Keep in mind that SOME trainers will pimp the gear and weapons that manufactures give them for "T&E", and stocks their armory with free gear. None will come out and say it, but it isn't quite transparent. This is, after all, a buisness to make money, and free High cost weapons and gear keeps you from having to take a substantial cut on the bottom line.In return, the manufacture gets a high speed respected trainers recommendation, and there is no better advertising than that. I judge weapons on a gun by gun basis, and refuse to get caught up in, "Im so and so, Training God of Thor, and these are the weapons that WE say works". Then again, I also refuse to pay for training after getting paid to train for real on the two way range. I guess im just a bitter bastard, but at least I know all of my "hobby gun" mutts work.YMMV............