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Posted: 11/23/2016 1:02:42 AM EDT
[#1]
If I can snag one for around $400 or less, I'll damn sure be a buyer. I'm about done with my SBR build and I guess this might just be the optic for it.
Vortex, will these be released on Experticity? |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 3:09:33 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If MAP is 499 as rumored Im out. 300-350 max is my price point. With the tech and advancement we have today, etc.... EOtechs are what, 400 now? Mepros are commonly 350, MRO's are on sale for 400 or so. Shame. I really want a circle dot in the 300-350 price range for my SBR. at 500 bucks there are a whole host of things that are nice. I just cant see spending that on a red dot, when a steiner or any number of nice, hardened 1-4s will do so much. This thing would kill the market at 300-350 bucks if it held zero and had no goofy issues. Theres just too much else out there when you get up over that. I don't understand this attitude, eotechs sold for $500 MSRP "tech and advancement" that didn't work right with eotechs.  Elcan was working on something similiar with an MSRP of $600 IIRC. Vortex has said that this has an improved battery life over the Eotech, I think that combined with a non drifting zero sight, can count for advancements enough. That plus the famous Vortex warranty. Fuck if it's around $500 or less at the online optics places I'm buying one.
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Posted: 11/23/2016 3:28:13 AM EDT
[#3]
Damn, I'm fairly excited but the big question is have they addressed that these have minimal issues with thermal drift and the parallax?
Almost bought an eoturd despite the shortcomings but thankful I didn't |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 5:37:05 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Elcan was working on something similiar with an MSRP of $600 IIRC. $700, actually. Although considering Elcan optics' prices are usually measured in kidneys, that's dirt cheap. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 7:27:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't understand this attitude, eotechs sold for $500 MSRP "tech and advancement" that didn't work right with eotechs. Elcan was working on something similiar with an MSRP of $600 IIRC. Vortex has said that this has an improved battery life over the Eotech, I think that combined with a non drifting zero sight, can count for advancements enough. That plus the famous Vortex warranty. Fuck if it's around $500 or less at the online optics places I'm buying one.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If MAP is 499 as rumored Im out. 300-350 max is my price point. With the tech and advancement we have today, etc.... EOtechs are what, 400 now? Mepros are commonly 350, MRO's are on sale for 400 or so. Shame. I really want a circle dot in the 300-350 price range for my SBR. at 500 bucks there are a whole host of things that are nice. I just cant see spending that on a red dot, when a steiner or any number of nice, hardened 1-4s will do so much. This thing would kill the market at 300-350 bucks if it held zero and had no goofy issues. Theres just too much else out there when you get up over that. I don't understand this attitude, eotechs sold for $500 MSRP "tech and advancement" that didn't work right with eotechs. Elcan was working on something similiar with an MSRP of $600 IIRC. Vortex has said that this has an improved battery life over the Eotech, I think that combined with a non drifting zero sight, can count for advancements enough. That plus the famous Vortex warranty. Fuck if it's around $500 or less at the online optics places I'm buying one.The attitude comes from the fact that for $500-600 you can buy many nice optics that do more than project a dot on a piece of glass. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 7:27:52 AM EDT
[#6]
Anyone seen if it will work with their magnifier?
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Posted: 11/23/2016 7:53:20 AM EDT
[#7]
Any idea on how it will look to people with some astigmatism? Aimpoint dots and EoTech look blurry and smeared to me.
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Posted: 11/23/2016 10:09:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Ill need to try one out in the field before committing as much as I love vortex. With my bad astigmatism EOtechs kinda work for me but only outdoors with ample brightness otherwise if its cloudy and dark or indoors its just a big ol blur of a reticle. But if these work for me I can think of at least 4 guns that will need one
 maybe 5 if it sits low enough on my CZ Evo.
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Posted: 11/23/2016 10:40:42 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any idea on how it will look to people with some astigmatism? Aimpoint dots and EoTech look blurry and smeared to me. I have astigmatism and EOtech looks like a stardust clusterfuck. My Aimpoint PRO looks great, no issues. These new Vortex are apparently astigmatism friendly. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 1:45:25 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The attitude comes from the fact that for $500-600 you can buy many nice optics that do more than project a dot on a piece of glass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If MAP is 499 as rumored Im out. 300-350 max is my price point. With the tech and advancement we have today, etc.... EOtechs are what, 400 now? Mepros are commonly 350, MRO's are on sale for 400 or so. Shame. I really want a circle dot in the 300-350 price range for my SBR. at 500 bucks there are a whole host of things that are nice. I just cant see spending that on a red dot, when a steiner or any number of nice, hardened 1-4s will do so much. This thing would kill the market at 300-350 bucks if it held zero and had no goofy issues. Theres just too much else out there when you get up over that. I don't understand this attitude, eotechs sold for $500 MSRP "tech and advancement" that didn't work right with eotechs. Elcan was working on something similiar with an MSRP of $600 IIRC. Vortex has said that this has an improved battery life over the Eotech, I think that combined with a non drifting zero sight, can count for advancements enough. That plus the famous Vortex warranty. Fuck if it's around $500 or less at the online optics places I'm buying one.The attitude comes from the fact that for $500-600 you can buy many nice optics that do more than project a dot on a piece of glass. Since you have it all figured out (you really don't though), stop shitting in this thread. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 1:47:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since you have it all figured out (you really don't though), stop shitting in this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If MAP is 499 as rumored Im out. 300-350 max is my price point. With the tech and advancement we have today, etc.... EOtechs are what, 400 now? Mepros are commonly 350, MRO's are on sale for 400 or so. Shame. I really want a circle dot in the 300-350 price range for my SBR. at 500 bucks there are a whole host of things that are nice. I just cant see spending that on a red dot, when a steiner or any number of nice, hardened 1-4s will do so much. This thing would kill the market at 300-350 bucks if it held zero and had no goofy issues. Theres just too much else out there when you get up over that. I don't understand this attitude, eotechs sold for $500 MSRP "tech and advancement" that didn't work right with eotechs. Elcan was working on something similiar with an MSRP of $600 IIRC. Vortex has said that this has an improved battery life over the Eotech, I think that combined with a non drifting zero sight, can count for advancements enough. That plus the famous Vortex warranty. Fuck if it's around $500 or less at the online optics places I'm buying one.The attitude comes from the fact that for $500-600 you can buy many nice optics that do more than project a dot on a piece of glass. Since you have it all figured out (you really don't though), stop shitting in this thread. Agreed. $500 for a top of the line red dot (which hopefully this will be) isn't out of line in today's marketplace. If I want a red dot I want a red dot not another "nice optic" instead. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 2:10:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Who made you the moderator?
Oh thats right, you arent. 500 bucks is too much. That's my opinion. Youre welcome to yours. What you wont be doing is giving me orders. 
Vortex makes quality, field ready stuff. Holos and rds arent on that list. They make good budget rds. A first foray into the field at a premium price is presumptuous imo. What the market wants is an eotech killer at a $350 price point. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 2:15:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The attitude comes from the fact that for $500-600 you can buy many nice optics that do more than project a dot on a piece of glass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If MAP is 499 as rumored Im out. 300-350 max is my price point. With the tech and advancement we have today, etc.... EOtechs are what, 400 now? Mepros are commonly 350, MRO's are on sale for 400 or so. Shame. I really want a circle dot in the 300-350 price range for my SBR. at 500 bucks there are a whole host of things that are nice. I just cant see spending that on a red dot, when a steiner or any number of nice, hardened 1-4s will do so much. This thing would kill the market at 300-350 bucks if it held zero and had no goofy issues. Theres just too much else out there when you get up over that. I don't understand this attitude, eotechs sold for $500 MSRP "tech and advancement" that didn't work right with eotechs. Elcan was working on something similiar with an MSRP of $600 IIRC. Vortex has said that this has an improved battery life over the Eotech, I think that combined with a non drifting zero sight, can count for advancements enough. That plus the famous Vortex warranty. Fuck if it's around $500 or less at the online optics places I'm buying one.The attitude comes from the fact that for $500-600 you can buy many nice optics that do more than project a dot on a piece of glass. It uses lasers not an LED like the red dot sights, this is a harder to manufacture technology. It is a fair price for a quality well made in America holographic sight. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 5:23:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The attitude comes from the fact that for $500-600 you can buy many nice optics that do more than project a dot on a piece of glass. You're aware that the simplistic projection of a red LED onto glass is not the same as laser holography, which is an order of magnitude more complex and has more in common with a jet's HUD than a red dot sight, right? A holographic sight and a red dot are NOT the same thing. That's going to cost money, regardless of who is making it. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 6:00:57 PM EDT
[#15]
In for future purchase
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Posted: 11/23/2016 6:01:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're aware that the simplistic projection of a red LED onto glass is not the same as laser holography, which is an order of magnitude more complex and has more in common with a jet's HUD than a red dot sight, right? A holographic sight and a red dot are NOT the same thing. That's going to cost money, regardless of who is making it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The attitude comes from the fact that for $500-600 you can buy many nice optics that do more than project a dot on a piece of glass. You're aware that the simplistic projection of a red LED onto glass is not the same as laser holography, which is an order of magnitude more complex and has more in common with a jet's HUD than a red dot sight, right? A holographic sight and a red dot are NOT the same thing. That's going to cost money, regardless of who is making it. Sam just said: It's made in the USA, with a UK made reticle/hologram. cryo_tech is just cranky for some reason 
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Posted: 11/23/2016 6:50:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who made you the moderator? Oh thats right, you arent. 500 bucks is too much. That's my opinion. Youre welcome to yours. What you wont be doing is giving me orders.
Vortex makes quality, field ready stuff. Holos and rds arent on that list. They make good budget rds. A first foray into the field at a premium price is presumptuous imo. What the market wants is an eotech killer at a $350 price point. My opinion is that you're bitter, probably because you can't afford something, even without knowing what it costs. If you can make a better, cheaper optic, then do it. We'll wait.
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Posted: 11/23/2016 7:22:55 PM EDT
[#18]
So much butt hurt in here. The vortex razor 1-6 is absolutely a premium LPV. If the razor huey holo is a premium red dot, I'd greatly consider it at $500. If it's less, I'll be even more interested.
Definitely in for more info on this one. When it comes to optics, it truly is best to pay to play. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 7:49:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My opinion is that you're bitter, probably because you can't afford something, even without knowing what it costs. If you can make a better, cheaper optic, then do it. We'll wait. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Who made you the moderator? Oh thats right, you arent. 500 bucks is too much. That's my opinion. Youre welcome to yours. What you wont be doing is giving me orders.
Vortex makes quality, field ready stuff. Holos and rds arent on that list. They make good budget rds. A first foray into the field at a premium price is presumptuous imo. What the market wants is an eotech killer at a $350 price point. My opinion is that you're bitter, probably because you can't afford something, even without knowing what it costs. If you can make a better, cheaper optic, then do it. We'll wait. Yep, Im bitter because I 'cant afford' it. Take another swing, slick. 
just because I want justification on a price, far from means I cant afford something. ETA- Vortex makes great stuff. I own 3 vortex optics, actually. But they've yet to make a RDS thats close to worth the ask of what this is rumored to be. Skeptical does not equal 'bitter' unless your a fanboy of some kind or have an axe to grind. I get the tech is more expensive than say an aimpoint. Its laser and not LED. Fine. But what does it do better than my comp M thats several years old and been beat to death, but still runs? If the expense comes from it being made in america, thats one thing. If it comes from hype, its another. If you can't see that the market is rich with 500 dollar optics that do the same thing over and over, for the same ask, then I dont know what to say - l As technology advances things get faster, better and cheaper. The market demands it. 
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Posted: 11/23/2016 7:56:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Can you just move this bullshit to the GD thread about the Vortex and out of Tech? I'd rather we talk info about the UH-1.
EOTech's finally going to have some competition from both Elcan and Vortex next year. That's pretty cool. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 8:05:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you just move this bullshit to the GD thread about the Vortex and out of Tech? I'd rather we talk info about the UH-1. EOTech's finally going to have some competition from both Elcan and Vortex next year. That's pretty cool. I would too. But I'm not the one taking personal shots. That being said, If this thing truly does something new and better, I'm all for hearing it. Im still skeptical as to the USB port being an un-needed addition and expense. |
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Posted: 11/23/2016 9:01:47 PM EDT
[#22]
I realize the leupy LCO is priced into the stratosphere but it doesnt change the fact it outperforms everything else in the RDS world, just wanted to insert that.
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Posted: 11/23/2016 10:06:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I realize the leupy LCO is priced into the stratosphere but it doesnt change the fact it outperforms everything else in the RDS world, just wanted to insert that. The LCO was also made for a very specific military application. One that it apparently is better at than Aimpoint and Eotech (something something night vision). That costs money, and is priced based on certain production numbers. If Leupold planned on cranking out LCOs like Aimpoint does M2/3/4/T1/T2, etc), I'm sure the optic would priced be lower. That said, you'd be hard pressed to find a duty grade red dot for less than $400 MSRP. the only one I can think of is the PRO, based off an older very mature design. New red dots are going to cost more than legacy systems. I'd be worried that Vortex wasn't really coming to play in the duty grade field if they brought in optic under $375-$400. They have other optics that fill the needs of casual shooters with tighter budgets. I'm actually excited to see that Vortex is bringing in a USA made sight to compete in the duty optic price range. Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. Cautious optimism right here. I hope it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'll leave it to the pros with bigger budgets than me to shake it out first though. |
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Posted: 11/24/2016 1:29:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The LCO was also made for a very specific military application. One that it apparently is better at than Aimpoint and Eotech (something something night vision). That costs money, and is priced based on certain production numbers. If Leupold planned on cranking out LCOs like Aimpoint does M2/3/4/T1/T2, etc), I'm sure the optic would priced be lower. That said, you'd be hard pressed to find a duty grade red dot for less than $400 MSRP. the only one I can think of is the PRO, based off an older very mature design. New red dots are going to cost more than legacy systems. I'd be worried that Vortex wasn't really coming to play in the duty grade field if they brought in optic under $375-$400. They have other optics that fill the needs of casual shooters with tighter budgets. I'm actually excited to see that Vortex is bringing in a USA made sight to compete in the duty optic price range. Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. Cautious optimism right here. I hope it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'll leave it to the pros with bigger budgets than me to shake it out first though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I realize the leupy LCO is priced into the stratosphere but it doesnt change the fact it outperforms everything else in the RDS world, just wanted to insert that. The LCO was also made for a very specific military application. One that it apparently is better at than Aimpoint and Eotech (something something night vision). That costs money, and is priced based on certain production numbers. If Leupold planned on cranking out LCOs like Aimpoint does M2/3/4/T1/T2, etc), I'm sure the optic would priced be lower. That said, you'd be hard pressed to find a duty grade red dot for less than $400 MSRP. the only one I can think of is the PRO, based off an older very mature design. New red dots are going to cost more than legacy systems. I'd be worried that Vortex wasn't really coming to play in the duty grade field if they brought in optic under $375-$400. They have other optics that fill the needs of casual shooters with tighter budgets. I'm actually excited to see that Vortex is bringing in a USA made sight to compete in the duty optic price range. Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. Cautious optimism right here. I hope it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'll leave it to the pros with bigger budgets than me to shake it out first though. Agree with your final two paragraphs. I think the MSRP on the PROs keep going up, I thought I remember seeing like $450 for them now at MAP pricing.
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Posted: 11/24/2016 4:31:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. 6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. |
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Posted: 11/24/2016 10:41:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. 6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. You will see two types of drift: plastic and elastic. Plastic drift is POA shifting permenantly when brought back to starting temp. Elastic drift is temporary drift that happens when the temp changes from starting temp. We are still doing testing on the UH-1, so I won't give out final numbers, but it performs very well. Plastic drift has been nearly zero. Elastic slightly more, but only at the extreme ends of the temp range. Say from 70f down to -40f, or 70f up to 140f. Another thing that we have seen is certain sights exhibiting lots of POA shift with light impact to the sight. Certain sights have been quite bad in this regard and I speculate that shift has been sometimes attributed to thermal drift, but can't say for sure. The UH-1 is also extremely good in this regard as well. I'm speaking pretty generally here, but as we get closer to SHOT more details will be released. |
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Posted: 11/24/2016 10:54:37 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. 6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. I'm not aware of 6MOA shift in Aimpoints. Can you cite your source, please? I'd like to read about it. |
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Posted: 11/24/2016 11:03:06 AM EDT
[#28]
By plastic drift, I assume you mean thermodynamic properties of the materials, elasticity, and inherent molecular memory of the materials in the sight itsself.
(See my handle - it's my field) This is why things are cryo-shocked. Once that step is taken, the inital "twisting and contorting" of the material along the molecular chain tends to settle out. I have no idea how youd apply this to an rds / holo, but I would assume in extreme shifts in temperature, this might be an issue with more malleable materials. |
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Posted: 11/24/2016 11:09:27 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: By plastic drift, I assume you mean thermodynamic properties of the materials, elasticity, and inherent molecular memory of the materials in the sight itsself. (See my handle - it's my field) This is why things are cryo-shocked. Once that step is taken, the inital "twisting and contorting" of the material along the molecular chain tends to settle out. I have no idea how youd apply this to an rds / holo, but I would assume in extreme shifts in temperature, this might be an issue with more malleable materials. I guess bottom line is that the UH-1 has nearly zero POA shift when brought back to starting temp from the extremes. |
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Posted: 11/25/2016 8:32:38 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. 6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. First time I've heard this. A guy tested a T-1 in a lab and found no noticeable shift. |
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Posted: 11/25/2016 8:34:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Have you guys tested parallax shift?
yes I know all optics exhibit parallax but the EOTechs had the potential of 18 MOA of parallax error across the sight window |
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Posted: 11/25/2016 12:26:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First time I've heard this. A guy tested a T-1 in a lab and found no noticeable shift. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. 6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. First time I've heard this. A guy tested a T-1 in a lab and found no noticeable shift. Same here. I'm quite skeptical of a 6moa shift without seeing some hard evidence. |
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Posted: 11/25/2016 12:57:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same here. I'm quite skeptical of a 6moa shift without seeing some hard evidence. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. 6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. First time I've heard this. A guy tested a T-1 in a lab and found no noticeable shift. Same here. I'm quite skeptical of a 6moa shift without seeing some hard evidence. We haven't tested a T-1, but the T-2 and M4s we tested did not shift nearly 6MOA. I'm not going to throw out numbers of competitors, but the Aimpoints we tested did pretty well. The UH-1 is in the same territory of the Aimponts we tested. To the person asking about parallax shift, we are aware of the phenomenon and are still doing testing with the UH-1 in that regard, but I'm confident it will perform well. |
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Posted: 11/25/2016 1:27:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Can't wait for Vortex. About to pull it on the Sig Sauer Romeo 4C. REALLY like the dual site option. If the Mepro Tru Dot had the 64 MOA circle I would have bought a long time ago.
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Posted: 11/25/2016 6:22:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Any rumors as to its weight?
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Posted: 11/25/2016 10:56:31 PM EDT
[#36]
I'd bet it's 8-10 ounces (with a 123 and a mount)....the lower the better. I think the LCO IS LIKE 10 ounces.
I love that reticle. If it is less than 10 ounces and around $450 MAP, I'll have to try one out. Battery life is always an issue with holo-sights...but I think auto-adjust settings and auto-off/on helps with that. |
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Posted: 11/26/2016 12:12:28 AM EDT
[#37]
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Same here. I'm quite skeptical of a 6moa shift without seeing some hard evidence. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Excited, but a little skeptical. ALL red dots experience some degree of thermal shift. Every. Single. One. The difference is that Eotechs shift was at bad, and hidden from customers. Now if the UH-1 can keep shift down to Aimpoint levels, and deliver decent battery life (happy with the CR123 choice for commonality with lights, but the charging port give me a bit of concern as a perceived need AS well as an extra point of failure), and can be tossed around without I'll effects like Aimpoint, I think we've got a real winner here. 6 MOA from cold to hot? No thanks, I'll pass if it's that bad and just stick with my 558. If they're in MRO territory or better, though, let's talk. First time I've heard this. A guy tested a T-1 in a lab and found no noticeable shift. Same here. I'm quite skeptical of a 6moa shift without seeing some hard evidence. Didn't save the data at the time, but here's what I found via Googling for testing of an H1: 
Testing methodology: 5 shots to establish zero.
5 shots with removing and reinstalling the sight between shots as a control to show what effect removal had. Freeze the sight to -20 and fire 5 shots, this gave a drift of 0.922 @ 25 yards or 3.686 MOA @ 100 yards. Return to ambient then heat to 140 and fire 5 shots, this gave a drift of 0.509 @ 25 yards or 2.036 MOA @ 100 yards. The spread from the cold drift POI to the hot drift POI was 1.424 @ 25 yards or 5.694 MOA @ 100 yards. Allowing the sight to cool from hot to ambient and fire 5 shots, this gave a drift of 0.483 @ 25 yards or 1.933 MOA @ 100 yards. With sight back at ambient fire 5 shots to compare to original zero, this gave a drift of 0.653 @ 25 yards or 2.614 @ 100 yards. Ambient temperature was 60 degrees. In Aimpoint's defense, I can't find the far more expensive CompM4's results from another test I saw months ago anymore, but it tested a better than the H1. Still quite a bit more than the advertised "no" drift, though. |
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Posted: 11/26/2016 7:54:05 AM EDT
[#38]
First ,we weren't talking about H-1s, but T-1s and 2s. He removed the optic each time. What mount did he use? What tension did he repeat when reinstalling? With such drastic and fast temp changes to the optic, might zero had been retained if the weapon was similarly heated an cooled (ensuring that weapon and optic were in the same status)? He's introducing variables that undermine an applicable yet. Also, what's the sample size? What was the temperature? Is going from cyro temps into boiling water an accurate and acceptable testing methodology? Is it applicable? This looks more like someone dicking around than scientific testing. I'm not saying any of his data point are necessarily wrong, but the text doesn't support the theory that the tester did an accurate test. Also, I did some Google too, and the test video was removed, and that may suggest other issues with the test. Just my $.02. Regarding battery life, PLEASE do not use auto leveling or auto shut off. Or at least allow users to disable those features. Self adjustment and auto shut off are absolute deal breakers in a professional environment due to issues that are widely known. |
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Posted: 11/26/2016 7:56:09 AM EDT
[#39]
Frost, not trying to sound like a jerk, just showing why I think the data you referenced isn't scientifically applicable. Apologies if it comes across that way.
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Posted: 11/26/2016 2:33:13 PM EDT
[#40]
I think your use of the nearly 6 MOA shift is entirely unreasonable because you're going from one extreme to another. When was the last time somebody went from Alaska winter low temperatures to Afghanistan temperatures? I could understand that if you held them to the other test that was around 4 MOA almost but keep in mind that some of the first mil issued Aimpoints had a dot of that size.
I remember watching that video before it was removed, he also said his test was largely unscientific which means it really may not mean anything. He also said he removed it to avoid litigation from Aimpoint. |
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Posted: 11/26/2016 4:56:11 PM EDT
[#41]
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I think your use of the nearly 6 MOA shift is entirely unreasonable because you're going from one extreme to another. When was the last time somebody went from Alaska winter low temperatures to Afghanistan temperatures? I could understand that if you held them to the other test that was around 4 MOA almost but keep in mind that some of the first mil issued Aimpoints had a dot of that size. I actually completely agree with you; why I haven't made any effort to find an alternative for my 558. At least in Texas weather, it has yet to shift enough for me to even need to rezero. But, much has been made of EOTechs shifting 5 MOA when going from winter in LLoydminster, Canada to summer in Baghdad, so apparently a lot of Arfcommers must be doing that ( ). So, just pointing out Aimpoints have shift as well when subjecting them to extremes.
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Posted: 11/26/2016 6:49:10 PM EDT
[#42]
I don't think any of us have any issue with tests. However, when the test criteria are unrealistic, and undocumented (removing the optic introduces return to zero variances all on its own, for instance), it's hard to take the test seriously.
I'm of the opinion that thermal shift is real and completely unavoudable. The issue is how much shift the is, and if its repeatable. Most people will never have an issue with eotech, but the issue is there regardless, and was hidden from taxpayers and military personnel. That's the problem that Vortex seems to be addressing quite satisfactorally. |
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Posted: 11/26/2016 7:14:31 PM EDT
[#43]
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I actually completely agree with you; why I haven't made any effort to find an alternative for my 558. At least in Texas weather, it has yet to shift enough for me to even need to rezero. But, much has been made of EOTechs shifting 5 MOA when going from winter in LLoydminster, Canada to summer in Baghdad, so apparently a lot of Arfcommers must be doing that ( ). So, just pointing out Aimpoints have shift as well when subjecting them to extremes.Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I think your use of the nearly 6 MOA shift is entirely unreasonable because you're going from one extreme to another. When was the last time somebody went from Alaska winter low temperatures to Afghanistan temperatures? I could understand that if you held them to the other test that was around 4 MOA almost but keep in mind that some of the first mil issued Aimpoints had a dot of that size. I actually completely agree with you; why I haven't made any effort to find an alternative for my 558. At least in Texas weather, it has yet to shift enough for me to even need to rezero. But, much has been made of EOTechs shifting 5 MOA when going from winter in LLoydminster, Canada to summer in Baghdad, so apparently a lot of Arfcommers must be doing that ( ). So, just pointing out Aimpoints have shift as well when subjecting them to extremes.If that's really the extent of the Eotech issue than maybe I'd consider one. I'd like to do my own every day shooters kind of a test. To see if it'd really effect an average dude. But unless I can evaluate before purchase I won't. Unless maybe I can find on cheap online. |
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Posted: 11/26/2016 9:50:39 PM EDT
[#44]
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Any rumors as to its weight? This. If it is almost as much as a 1-4 or 1-6 I'll just go with another one of those. ETA almost meaning 6oz or there about. |
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Posted: 11/27/2016 2:07:44 AM EDT
[#45]
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Hoping it's an EOtech with decent battery life that won't shit the bed. That being said..... Built in USB charging port sounds a bit too China to me. I know on ecigs, the built in usb charging is supposedly dangerous to use. Look at how many cell phones and tablets are charged by USB. |
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Posted: 11/27/2016 9:18:43 AM EDT
[#46]
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Look at how many cell phones and tablets are charged by USB. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hoping it's an EOtech with decent battery life that won't shit the bed. That being said..... Built in USB charging port sounds a bit too China to me. I know on ecigs, the built in usb charging is supposedly dangerous to use. Look at how many cell phones and tablets are charged by USB. I just don't like the additional point of failure. Phone charging ports are vulnerabilities to water, especially. While this can be addressed, it cannot be eliminated. An optic charging port is much more exposed to water on a duty optic than a phone would be. It may be less of an issue than I fear, but I'm still not a fan of the risk added for. Little convenience. |
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Posted: 11/27/2016 5:30:26 PM EDT
[#47]
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I just don't like the additional point of failure. Phone charging ports are vulnerabilities to water, especially. While this can be addressed, it cannot be eliminated. An optic charging port is much more exposed to water on a duty optic than a phone would be. It may be less of an issue than I fear, but I'm still not a fan of the risk added for. Little convenience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hoping it's an EOtech with decent battery life that won't shit the bed. That being said..... Built in USB charging port sounds a bit too China to me. I know on ecigs, the built in usb charging is supposedly dangerous to use. Look at how many cell phones and tablets are charged by USB. I just don't like the additional point of failure. Phone charging ports are vulnerabilities to water, especially. While this can be addressed, it cannot be eliminated. An optic charging port is much more exposed to water on a duty optic than a phone would be. It may be less of an issue than I fear, but I'm still not a fan of the risk added for. Little convenience. I agree. And wouldn't you have to either take the optic off the firearm or tether it via a charging cable to an outlet. I'm not seeing ANY real advantage over just popping in a new battery.
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Posted: 11/27/2016 7:10:17 PM EDT
[#48]
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I agree. And wouldn't you have to either take the optic off the firearm or tether it via a charging cable to an outlet. I'm not seeing ANY real advantage over just popping in a new battery.
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Hoping it's an EOtech with decent battery life that won't shit the bed. That being said..... Built in USB charging port sounds a bit too China to me. I know on ecigs, the built in usb charging is supposedly dangerous to use. Look at how many cell phones and tablets are charged by USB. I just don't like the additional point of failure. Phone charging ports are vulnerabilities to water, especially. While this can be addressed, it cannot be eliminated. An optic charging port is much more exposed to water on a duty optic than a phone would be. It may be less of an issue than I fear, but I'm still not a fan of the risk added for. Little convenience. I agree. And wouldn't you have to either take the optic off the firearm or tether it via a charging cable to an outlet. I'm not seeing ANY real advantage over just popping in a new battery.
i suspect the target could potentially be LE. Rifle sits on rack and optic stays plugged in. Hop out and no worries if officer farva was fiddling with it and left the thing on for his 14 hour shift. but don't take this as an endorsement from me. Until we can program reticles/dot sizes, there's no benefit in my minds eye. |
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Posted: 11/28/2016 10:12:57 AM EDT
[#49]
Center dot moa?
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Posted: 11/28/2016 5:41:45 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Center dot moa? Here it is with a 3x magnifier:  And another teaser image of the sight on a rifle:  ETA: Fixed images. Hope you all can see them? |
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