Here we go... "Fat, lazy, stupid cops.  IF I WAS THERE..."   Blah, blah, blah.  

Quoted: No way can a pistol rd. pentrate what the 5.56 does at that distance and normal house building materials. Jack

.223 for CQB Your assumptions don't correspond with the findings of the FBIs FTU tests.

quoted from .223 for CQB

FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.


Barriers and Structures
The Bureau’s research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment. Although it is usually not advisable to fire at targets you can’t see in urban settings, it is done and some subjects have been stopped in this manner. Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.

As a point of interest, the rifled shotgun slug, while not possessing the .223’s flat trajectory, is still capable of attaining a maximum range of 900 yards. This fact illustrates that any errant law enforcement round regardless of caliber, or maximum range, is potentially dangerous to the community.

Quote,
No sir, the Richmond Times Dispatch is a conservative, Republican and pro-second ammendment newspaper.

That's fine.
But like I said, with a liberal misinformed reporter that sounds like he dislikes "so called" assault weapons.
Heck, I know some "so called" pro -second ammendment hunters like JFK that feel that way too.
And, the rules of engagement do not depend upon the type of weapon used.
You must stop the threat,  period.
The .223/5.56 rounds that actually hit the target preformed  quite well and did the intended job.
Yes, more range/trigger time is clearly needed but the best part about this story was that another BG bit the dust!

I would rather 100 police bullets go into my house and wreck my prized bathtub than have 1 deranged psycho with a gun enter my house with my family in it.

Quoted: I would rather 100 police bullets go into my house and wreck my prized bathtub than have 1 deranged psycho with a gun enter my house with my family in it.

+1

Quoted: I would rather 100 police bullets go into my house and wreck my prized bathtub than have 1 deranged psycho with a gun enter my house with my family in it.

While I wouldn't want to put my family through that trauma, I'd rather a deranged lunitic come try and get in/get in my house than have 100 rounds come ripping into my house as a suprise since those rounds are just as potentialy leathal to me and my loved ones as the lunitic, but at least I can shoot the lunitic. Can't shoot bullets ya don't know are comming at ya.

I think they may need some more range time. But I still won't knock the use of the rifles. If that was the tool they felt was best for the job, than so be it. It was their asses on the line not mine. Hell I use the same gun as a house gun.....

Quoted: Can't shoot bullets ya don't know are comming at ya. .

Can you shoot the bullets that you KNOW are comin at ya?

ok, so bullets start flying through your house.  what happens when you return fire?

What happens when you return ACCURATE fire.

Remember, Friendly fire, isn't.


TXL

Quoted:
I'm really suprised by most of the responses in this thread.

If my house got lit up by the local PD, I would be quite upset....as I think most of the rest of us would be too.  I'd rather the perp got into my home so I could dispatch him myself, than 20-30 rounds coming in at me, my family, pets, and property.

If a citizen did the same thing shooting an assailant with so many errant rounds, I guarantee you they would be charged with something.  Aren't police supposed to be held to a higher standard?  We all know the safety rule be sure of your target and what is beyond it.  The police and the tax payers are lucky no one was hurt, that would be a big wrongful death suit there. hinking.gif

quote]
+1
Cops kill BG.  Good.  Bullets in the roof while shooting at truck on the road. Bad.

Quoted: Quoted: Can't shoot bullets ya don't know are comming at ya. . Can you shoot the bullets that you KNOW are comin at ya?

Strong the force is with this one

I wonder if the officers had maintained accurate zeros on their guns and knew said zero's

It does sound like they were not shooting well, but in the same situation I wonder how many of us would do much better

If they had shot pistols, MUCH less lead would have hit target, meaning more shots would have been needed to end the situation, and all those 9mm and .40 bullets would have really been tearing the homes in the neighborhood up.  5.56 loses a lot of its umph after hitting a residential wall and even after hitting a car windshield.

Edited for spelling

Quoted: I would rather 100 police bullets go into my house and wreck my prized bathtub than have 1 deranged psycho with a gun enter my house with my family in it.

The suspect HAD already tried to enter the home through the front door but could not. He then returned to his pickup. He had commited triple homicide earlier of three family members but if I remember correctly it was not with a firearm and when killed he was not armed either.

Quoted: Quoted: I would rather 100 police bullets go into my house and wreck my prized bathtub than have 1 deranged psycho with a gun enter my house with my family in it. The suspect HAD already tried to enter the home through the front door but could not. He then returned to his pickup. He had commited triple homicide earlier of three family members but if I remember correctly it was not with a firearm and when killed he was not armed either.

Pickup trucks aren't deadly?  100% one-hit-stops with those.

Quoted: So there is another down side to living on a cul-de-sac in addition to cars turning around to fast in the circle. I have learned from this.  When building a house in a cul-de-sac, get the triple brick front elevation.

My court was built before we got "frenchy". I got the brick one. You're right, sometimes I feel like
parking my "redneck" pickup truck in the middle of the court to slow down the "U" turners!
Good thing is all four courts in my area are named after guns/machine guns: Vickers, Luger etc.

Quoted: Quoted: Can't shoot bullets ya don't know are comming at ya. . Can you shoot the bullets that you KNOW are comin at ya?

I read that after I posted it and actually thought aobut changing it so it would read better, but didn't. But you get the point.....

Quoted: Pickup trucks aren't deadly?  100% one-hit-stops with those.

I was, as I had been doing in previous posts merely stating the facts from articles. One poster mentioned he preferred the bullets entering the home with his family inside to the psycho getting in. I merely stated that the suspect had tried to gain entry and could not. The other facts I felt were just peripheral to the situation. Perhaps I neglected to say it correctly. You did say it better than me.

the state police uses federal 62 gr HPs that have a very thin jacket and are designed to break up when they hit; even dry wall is supposed to stop them.

Quoted: If they had shot pistols, MUCH less lead would have hit target, meaning more shorts would have been needed to end the situation,

.22 Short sounds pretty weak to me- at least get Stingers like Imbroglio would do in his 10/22.  

The thought of that many rounds being that far off sounds like a serious issue to me... 10ft over your target, might as well put it on your hip and start bump-firing.  But is it possible they were ricochets?  Would it make a difference if they were?

Quoted: the state police uses federal 62 gr HPs that have a very thin jacket and are designed to break up when they hit; even dry wall is supposed to stop them.

My Trooper shooting friends issue ammo is Federal LE223T3, with the 62 Grain Trophy Bonded Bullet, Nickle cases too.

I have seen the boxes and the ammo in the 20 round mags.

The M-4 is nice too.

Danny

Quoted: Quoted: If they had shot pistols, MUCH less lead would have hit target, meaning more shorts would have been needed to end the situation, .22 Short sounds pretty weak to me- at least get Stingers like Imbroglio would do in his 10/22.

OOOPPSS...sorry. thanks for the catch.. Hey slaughterhouses kill hogs with 22 shorts all the time