1-Simple
2-Rugged
3-Reliable
4-Accurate
5-Flashlight

1-M4 profile upper
2-Forged not cast construction, chrome lined barrel, quality handguards
3-Solid BUIS
4-Quality Red Dot Optic
5-Surefire or equilevant

I'm a big fan of K.I.S.S.....but I also won't ignore some key components that really do enhance the gun.

That's all you really need to have a competative AR for shooting out to 200 meters.  IMHO, if you're shooting goes 0-300+ meters, I'd opt for an ACOG with BAC in place of the red dot.

The rest is frills to suit your taste and needs.

Stolen from Pat Rogers on another forum....

"Shot placement is more important then caliber.
Training with what you have is more important then not training with something else.
Training is the key- it is about fighting, not shooting."

Initially buy a basic rifle and shoot the crap out of it!

Then buy stuff as the need dictates and or budget allows. Millions of enemy soldiers have been killed with rack grade rifles, with no accessories, and iron sights.

Yep, Yeager's classes are great. You can't imagine what you miss by
training on your own. Me and my brother spent six days when he (teamed
with Andy Stanford) was here in Vienna and a few days as guests in Big
Sandy,TN. Southern hospitality-BIG TIME!
Some may recognize his trusty Bushmaster 16" loaning gun. I have never
seen a rifle so dirty!! But hey, IT'S A TOOL, MAN [copyright Yeager]):  



Never to mention that strange grin I had on my face weeks after shooting
the Sherriff's MP5...

USMC03,

Since you are so good at dispensing practical advise for the beginning tactical shooter, I'd like to ask you to be more specific when you recommend a three point sling.

Can you please discuss which one(s) you recommend and why?

Also why do you feel they are "better" than two point slings?

TIA,
$bob$

A lot of what you are asking is personal preference.  Do some 'window shopping' in the Pic Thread and see what you like, Go to your 'hometown' forum and find some guys who live nearby and are willing to meet you at a range so you can get a feel of their setups, optics, etc.

Quoted: A lot of what you are asking is personal preference.  Do some 'window shopping' in the Pic Thread and see what you like, Go to your 'hometown' forum and find some guys who live nearby and are willing to meet you at a range so you can get a feel of their setups, optics, etc.

I'm not disagreeing with you BUT everything USMC03 has told him was based on experiene.  That does play into personal preference but why not learn from someone elses mistakes?

Quoted: I'm not disagreeing with you BUT everything USMC03 has told him was based on experiene.  That does play into personal preference but why not learn from someone elses mistakes?

I am not saying that someone else's experiences aren't valueable.  But lets face it, a stock/optic/foregrip combo that works comfortably for one individual may not work for another.  All I am saying is to A) see what is out there and B) try to lay hands on something and get a feel for it before you spend that kind of money.

One of the better threads on ARFCOM for a while now...

And yes I'm taking notes, I do need a spare for summer training

That, and I have some more annoying torture testing to do

Agreed.  This thread is 100% locked-on.

I am also in the process of changing my gear to batter suit my "mission" (being a civilian).  Back in '02, I bought an M4-type carbine because I thought it was sexy.  Now in '05 I'm realizing that I don't kick in doors for a living.  Heck, I didn't even do that during my brief stint in the Marines.  Long story short, iron sights kick ass, and I don't need or want four pounds of rails, lasers, IR designators, and radar detectors hanging off of my rifle.  Someday, I plan on a flashlight, but that's about it.

Quoted: ...and I don't need or want four pounds of rails, lasers, IR designators, and radar detectors hanging off of my rifle.  Someday, I plan on a flashlight, but that's about it.

Seriously!?  They have radar detectors?!?!  Where?  How much?  Is the USMC using them yet????




In agreement, this is a great thread.

I know what he's using (usmc03), but I'll let him post the details..... it looks like this.

What are you going to do most with your rifle?

Walking, hiking, patrolling long distances - 3 point sling

SWAT operations, general LE use, high speed classes - Single point sling

We use a lot of the same stuff, so our setups are pretty close to each other.

(Except that he has four times as many and generally gets it all before I do! I gues that makes him my beta tester!)

Quoted: Quoted: ...and I don't need or want four pounds of rails, lasers, IR designators, and radar detectors hanging off of my rifle.  Someday, I plan on a flashlight, but that's about it. Seriously!?  They have radar detectors?!?!  Where?  How much?  Is the USMC using them yet???? In agreement, this is a great thread.

*glances back and forth*

Oh, yeah.  Yeah, um...Force Recon uses them, that's the ticket.  A-and some SWAT teams too, yeah.

Seriously, I was just engaging in hyperbole to make a point.  I have yet to see a radar detector on a rifle.  A multi-pund flail, yes, a radar detector, no.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ...and I don't need or want four pounds of rails, lasers, IR designators, and radar detectors hanging off of my rifle.  Someday, I plan on a flashlight, but that's about it. Seriously!?  They have radar detectors?!?!  Where?  How much?  Is the USMC using them yet???? In agreement, this is a great thread. *glances back and forth* Oh, yeah.  Yeah, um...Force Recon uses them, that's the ticket.  A-and some SWAT teams too, yeah. Seriously, I was just engaging in hyperbole to make a point.  I have yet to see a radar detector on a rifle.  A multi-pund flail, yes, a radar detector, no.

you forgot dog whistles

Quoted: you forgot dog whistles

I don't think I've seen that one yet!  *checks various AR joke pictures*

Well, upon further review, there's one with a carpeted cheekpiece and a Photoshop job with a hood ornament, compass, and Swiss Army Knife, but still no dog whistle.

Quoted: Quoted: you forgot dog whistles I don't think I've seen that one yet!  *checks various AR joke pictures* Well, upon further review, there's one with a carpeted cheekpiece and a Photoshop job with a hood ornament, compass, and Swiss Army Knife, but still no dog whistle.

It's patent pending, so step off, mkay!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: you forgot dog whistles I don't think I've seen that one yet!  *checks various AR joke pictures* Well, upon further review, there's one with a carpeted cheekpiece and a Photoshop job with a hood ornament, compass, and Swiss Army Knife, but still no dog whistle. It's patent pending, so step off, mkay!

Curses!  Foiled again!

well holy dogbites, this thread most definitely turned into a Gun Porn orgy in short order.Happy

That being said, to answer your question about a carbine, get a stock gun from a reputable manufacturer, read up and get to know the AR system through and through.  USMC03 loves to rib me on this aspect, but it cannot be reiterated enough.  If I had time, I'd definitely sign up to undergo a decent armorers course.   Manufacturers to consider Bushmaster, Rock River or Colt, albeit Colt weapons tend to carry about a premium for something IMO is equal in quality/function to either Bushy or Rock.

Get the carbine warmed up some before taking it to the course, anywhere from 300-450 rounds, to verify function, and debug any issues with the cas system, inspect the BC / bolt and FP.  USMC03 can clue you into what to look for etc.

Get yourself a spare B/c, bolt and assortment of small pieces, trust me you WILL need this in case your gun goes titsup.

Flattop or A2 handle?  This is a matter of some conjecture, and debate - it is up to you to find this out, but keep in mind that  fixed handle is NOT the same as a removable A3 handle.

Toys!modular rails, flashlights, Optics, Tactical Dildos, gawd!  I could go on and on.  The point is, learn how the STOCK gun feels in balance, shooting, maintaining cheek weld >>> master the IRONS
<<<  All this most be WELL ingrained before you start buying and slapping on these accessories, because I can guarantee that the gun will feel and shoot differently when you do, and if you go for the toy route from the get go, you'll fund that you wont have a decent baseline to go back to in case of failure, and you'll be out all that extra $$$

Once you have gotten yourself 'familiar' with the carbine, then you may want to look at the accessories avaiable to you.  the very FIRST thing (aside from the field repair kit mentioned before) is a GOOD three point sling - this in essence is the 'holster' for your primary weapon, without it, you will not be able to effective engage your secondary weapon with both hands free.  Why not a single point ?  Again we go back to learning the basics, with a three point sling, the primary weapon is less likely  to slosh about ( if you have a single point and a donkey dick on your carbine wou know the thin line you straddle when you move about)  Unless you're gonna be kickin in doors, and causing due ruckus, the three point design will do fine for 99% of what you are going to do.

Magazines?  USGI (I dont think you need me to spell that one out hem,
Ammunition?  Factory loaded, NOT johnny bumpkin reloads  Lake City, IMI, white box Winchester Q3131A, Magtech and if you can muster it Black hills.

Collapsible stocks - I've got a long reach (LoP) so a fixed A2 stock fits me just fine, however if the need arises, You cannot go wrong with either the Magpul M93A or the Vltor.

Optics?  MASTER YOUR IRONS!!!, What model?   MASTER YOUR IRONS!!!  get to know how your carbine shoots, only then should you consider an optic ... we'll leave that for a future posting.


Modular Toys?  foreends, it is a base for which you can hang all your other shit on - wait until you get the basics down pat, then get a modular foreend  RAS, DD foreends seem to be the pick of the crowd.

Foregrips?  Ah ubiquitous DONKEY DICK, IMO the ones to have are either the DIETER CQD grip or the Tangodown grip.

(as an aside, Tango down also makes and excellent, ergonomic pistol grip assembly)

Gucci gear?  make sure your gear is servicable, and I DONT mean USGI Lc2 pouches.  and when you do get a rig configured, take the TIME to KNOW where everything is located.  GET GOOD GEAR!!!  

Holster?  someone mentioned a 6004, unless you're planning on wearing armor, I would recommend a good KYDEX OWB ... this serves two purposes, it carries the secondary in a more accessible manner, and also aids in reinforcing memory if you plan on wearing a carry sidearm.

Thats what I can come up with for the time being.

Hmmm some real food for thought in this thread...

I'll be taking my first carbine class(es) this year. I will bring my basic M4 to the first one I think...

On torture testing, all of my rifles have at least 2000 rounds through them over a period of months, but  does anyone recomend a shortened "intensive"  test? I recently ran 6 30 rd mags through one of my guns as fast as I could slap in another mag , with no failures, would this be a good test for all of my weapons?


Thanks

-sc

Quoted: once called the internet the "Cow path to misinformation"

That is very funny, unfortunately, it’s also very true.

Wow guys, this is a great thread, I’m learning a lot too.

ikold, I’ve never been to any kind of formal training, so I’m no where near qualified to give you any recommendations on what to use for your upcoming Blackwater course. I am however left handed (have been all my life) and love the black rifle so I wanted to add my .02 on that subject.

Stick with a normal (right handed) weapon.

I think of the "left-handed rifles" as gimmicks, there’s nothing they do, that you need, that an A2 won’t do. With the advent of the A2 shell deflector there’s no reason to have a bass ackwards messed up  weapon that ejects to the left. The only two things you might consider adding is an ambi mag release and ambi safety. Of all my years of shooting tin cans in the mud, I have found no need for either. The only time I have ever wavered is an ambi mag release on a High Power Service Rifle, but that’s not what you’re going to be doing. Like the others have said, go with a simple rifle, if you find you need these modified parts later on, you can always add them then.

Have fun, welcome to the board, and happy birthday.

Tagged.  This is a good topic.    

I hope to go thru a patrol carbine class soon.  

Colt_SBR  

KISS

If it can break it will.

If you don't plan to carry it that way, don't train with it that way.

Train like you fight, because you WILL fight like you train.

Bring spare parts. If you don't need them, someone else will.

Just some ideas.

Quoted: KISS If it can break it will. If you don't plan to carry it that way, don't train with it that way. Train like you fight, because you WILL fight like you train. Bring spare parts. If you don't need them, someone else will. Just some ideas.

So true!

Also, make sure you are zeroed at the proper ranges with whatever optic/iron set up you decide to roll with.  

.

.

.

.

USMC03,

Thanks for the information you have provided. It has given me a lot to think about and helped me evaluate my real world needs.


Dave

Quoted: Quoted: Now you have me curious, my girlfriend is going to love you for this "You want me to hide in the house and click this little knob?" Good e-mail from your buddy Aimless,          Actually that was an email I wrote and send to a friend.             A good drill would be, have your girlfriend stay in the bedroom and move the adjustment knob on the Aimponit several clicks at one time (like you would if you were turning it on)......Then position yourself in different points thoughout the house, and I'm sure you'll "hear" what I'm was talking about.            During the day time it's not too noticible, but on a dark night when there are no lights on in the house, it will make a big difference.            Report back on your findings Take care and stay safe,

Here's an example of what you'll do at Blackwater....








Okay just kidding. This isn't Blackwater. But this goes to show there is a difference in the level of training some get. Although in this case its insane....(Yes thats live fire)


Edited to clarify last sentence...
.

Quoted: Here's an example of what you'll do at Blackwater....

That's called trust.  I can run individual drills all day long, but team concepts like that can't be built by yourself.  I feel totally inadequate.

Quoted: Quoted: Here's an example of what you'll do at Blackwater.... coloradoshooting.org/ipw-web/gallery/albums/bbadmin-Album-1/1568_deanc1.sized.jpg That's called trust.  I can run individual drills all day long, but team concepts like that can't be built by yourself.  I feel totally inadequate.

yeesh.....that's some intense training

Quoted: Quoted:              Many may ask why I wouldn't choose an Aimpoint.  When you turn on an Aimpoint it makes noise that can be heard in a dark quite house.  The biggest thing you have going for you if a burglar breaks in during the middle of the night is the "Element of Suprise"!!!  You want to suprise the bad guy, not the other way around.  Before we go on a SWAT call I turn on my Aimpoint, turn on my Surefire 961C, and get the Aimpoint set to the right setting.  This is a LUXURY that a home owner that is woken up in the middle of the night doesn't have.  If someone breaks in your house you are probably going to be on limited time, and you are going to want to be as quiet as possible.  A simple iron sighted carbine with a light on it (a light that is easy to operate without moving your support hand off of the handguard) is all you need. My iron sights work just fine if I don't have time to turn on my aimpoint. I kind of question whether someone who is not in the same room as you is gonig to hear the click of aimpoint turning on, but maybe you're still young and have better ears than me.

I've never heard an aimpoint with a loud enough click that it would let somone know it was turned on who was further than 10 feet away. Besides I thought the new aimpoints have such a great battery life that they are "never off" now.  With the battery life those things(listed at 10k hours IIRC) have, there should be no reason to turn the thing off period, especially on a defensive carbine. Or am I wrong on this battery life thing with aimpoints?

.

seems like folks are missing the point -

Something goes BUMP in the night,
shits starting to flow

you go for your M4, will you have the fine motor skills? to engage the little knob
I would venture NO

I concur with 'O3 with his earlier statement regarding the effects of stress physiology on shooting.  Some here would equate the hair on neck rising, and the arenaline flow as signs of fear, when in actuality it is a throwback to our ancestors fight or flight response.   Its one thing to shoot from a bench  and masturbate your hits on top of each other with  XXX minutes in between, and another to REALLY extend yourself beyond the realm of comfort.

EGG

Egg, great to see you here!

If there is one thing ikold will learn at Blackwater it's shooting off the bench is nothing compared to shooting under stress.  And the stress they put you under at Blackwater is nothing compared to the stress one must experience knowing an intruder is in the house.

When it's not your turn to shoot at Blackwater it's funny to see your classmates fumble around with the simplist of things; turrning your optic on, flipping your BUIS up, drawing from the holster, reloading, etc, etc, etc.  BUT, when it's your turn to shoot and the instructor is yelling at you and your fumbling around like it's the first time you ever touched an AR it's a real eye opener

You realize what is important and what is not in a big hurry.  I'm only guessing here but multiple that by 1000 when someone is coming down your hallway and intends to do harm to your family.

Great thread, and many thanks to USMC03 for his knowledge. This takes many things off of my wish list.

Now, where to find a 3 point sling for $20.00

TXL

Quoted: Quoted: I've never heard an aimpoint with a loud enough click that it would let somone know it was turned on who was further than 10 feet away. Besides I thought the new aimpoints have such a great battery life that they are "never off" now.  With the battery life those things(listed at 10k hours IIRC) have, there should be no reason to turn the thing off period, especially on a defensive carbine. Or am I wrong on this battery life thing with aimpoints? Photoman,           What kind of training have you been through?  Are you a SWAT officer (I notice the 1* under your screen name)?  Have you ever done any kind of Simunitions or shoot house training, any low light training?             I would not advise keeping any kind of electronic optic on 24 / 7.  They are ment to be turned on when you need them, and turned off when not in use.  Why would you want to leave an electronic optic on at all times, never knowing if or when your house might get broken into?

So far I've done carbine 1& 2 with Sully from Defensive Edge. I'm puting together another carbine 1&2 course for those that wanted to go to the first class but couldn't. And were going to take a road trip up to Minn. to do carbine 3 some time this summer at least thats the plan(I still plan to go even if the rest of the crew doesn't).  

I've not done any simunitions stuff, I'd love to honestly but most of the stuff I see where simunitions is used is all LE/Military only classes. And I'd love to take some classes eventually that teach two person tactics and the like, but not to may of them are, that I see, open to non-LE/Military.

Also on average i'm at the range 2 times a week just to practice all the stuff we learned from Sully.

I'm not an aimpoint user(currently). I actually didn't like red dots for the longest time. I was thinking about picking up an aimpoint, but before dropping the cash for one I got a tacpoint to see how I'd like shooting with a dot. I like it enough that one of these days I'll pick up an aimpoint.  

The reason I asked about the aimpoint is that I read on here in the optics forum at one time about the newer aimpoints not having an "off" setting due to the battery life, but I don't know if thats true or not as I never had the inclination to get an aimpoint so I never checked to confirm if thats true or not. Though it's something I should do now that I have decided I want to get one.

Anyway I guess to me, turning off an optic that is suposed to have 10k hour battery life just seems like something thats pointless and adds another step should you need that weapon in the middle of the night.  Why not at least turn it on before you crash out for the night, that way it's on and ready to go should it be needed. I take this from a 2am wake up call in which I had to roll out of bed and grab a gun and a light. I left the tail cap on the light locked out when I went to bed. It was one more step, in the dark, while having just been woken up. Since than I make sure to check that the tail cap on the light isn't locked out before I go to bed, so why not make sure the optic, if you use one, is also ready to go?

Since I have gotten my AR's I've only really used, until fairly recently, low power variable glass on them(1-4x20 leupold) or irons as that is what fit with my intended uses for the gun(s). It worked in class and it works in the woods(I take them hunting).

I'm sure that as I get more class time under my belt that I may see some things differently as thats what comes as you gain more experiance and education on a subject.

And thanks for yer posts in this thread very good info.

Quoted: Great thread, and many thanks to USMC03 for his knowledge. This takes many things off of my wish list. Now, where to find a 3 point sling for $20.00 TXL

IM or email C4iGrant, I believe he has some CQB 3 point slings close to that price range.  I'm picking one up tonight for my new build.

Quoted: Great thread, and many thanks to USMC03 for his knowledge. This takes many things off of my wish list. Now, where to find a 3 point sling for $20.00 TXL

Its kinda hard to see but i bought this sling at a local military surplus for $15. The guy is awesome. I managed to get it to work with m4 handguards but its made for the car sized handguards. He has them for the standard a2 stock and the collapsables. I would be happy to give you better pics of it later, and if you wanted i could purchase it and mail it to you if you gave me a money order or paypal. Let me know.

On the optic issue...10K hours is only 1.1 years.  I personally don't want to have to keep that close track of how long I've had a battery in my aimpoint.

That being said, I think there is a heck of a lot to be said for a bare bones, no frills carbine if you are really going to use it for your "under/next to-the bed" gun.  Of course, if you have your aimpoint set to cowitness and you keep the flip up/downs open or just remove them, you'd still have immediate access to your irons until, or if, you decided to turn the aimpoint on.


Since we are discussing it in a round about manner...how many of you keep an AR in the bedroom as your primary house defense gun?

Quoted: KISS If it can break it will. If you don't plan to carry it that way, don't train with it that way. Train like you fight, because you WILL fight like you train. Bring spare parts. If you don't need them, someone else will. Just some ideas.hr

Good sound advice.   I'd only add one thing gadgets are no replacement for good marksmanship.

This is the carbine I plan on using in the patrol carbine class.  I've thought long and hard about the equipment for this carbine.  I've done a lot of impulse buying, in the past, and it's cost some $$$$.  I ended up with this setup.  

I shoot with and without the Aimpoint while at the range.  My eyes aren't as good as they used to be so I got the Aimpoint ML2 in case I want to use it.  During the carbine class, they have you qualify with irons first, then if you want optics you qualify with them second.  That way, I hope to be qualified to use irons and optics on duty.  

I've talked to a lot of officers that have gone through the patrol carbine course and ended up with this setup,

The upper is a 15" RRA Special upper with the permanent attached FH to make it the legal 16.1", from Pete-in-NH.  It's got a RAS II for optics and add-ons.  The lower is a Bushmaster with a Vltor stock.  The upper only has 220 rounds through it but the Bushmaster lower is well used.  I lost count on the lower.  I plan on 1,000+ rounds through this carbine before class.  

I'm still looking for a weapon light I like.  

I am trying the IDF sling.  So far I like the sling.  The IDF are hard charging soldiers and the sling is combat proven.  Time will tell if it suits me.  I'll be bringing a U.S. military sling to class in case the IDF sling doesn't work for me.  I don't have any 3 point slings and never tried one.  

Insert gun porn here:    

 

 

I want to thank everyone for the input.  I enjoy the topics with real live experience.  This is one of the best topics I've read.  

Colt_SBR  

Quoted: On the optic issue...10K hours is only 1.1 years.  I personally don't want to have to keep that close track of how long I've had a battery in my aimpoint. That being said, I think there is a heck of a lot to be said for a bare bones, no frills carbine if you are really going to use it for your "under/next to-the bed" gun.  Of course, if you have your aimpoint set to cowitness and you keep the flip up/downs open or just remove them, you'd still have immediate access to your irons until, or if, you decided to turn the aimpoint on. Since we are discussing it in a round about manner...how many of you keep an AR in the bedroom as your primary house defense gun?

My under/next to the bed gun has tritum inserts in the irons. no red dot yet.
And yes my primary is an AR.(but only if it's close, otherwise it's a pistol, ya use what ya got when the door gets kicked in, not what you want/think you will)

Quoted: On the optic issue...10K hours is only 1.1 years.  I personally don't want to have to keep that close track of how long I've had a battery in my aimpoint.

Change it when you change your smoke detector battereies - 2x per year.  Yeah it will cost a couple of dollars more but at 2x a year it won't kill ya.

I just happened to choose this thread at random, and I'm glad I did.

I'm pretty new to AR stuff and have to admit  I'm guilty of pimping out my
first carbine. Initally, I was trying to copycat the RR DEA carbine or come close.

Well, at least the bells and whistles can be removed and a more basic set-up
left.

Prior to some nasty surgeries last year, I did compete in in long range bolt gun
matches, and the idea of simplicity served pretty well with that. I mean, hell,
guys with their wind meters, humidity gauges, ballistic behavior printouts ( I was a
ballistic printout whore a few times) would get some of that stuff scrambled in their heads and screw up when trigger time came.

I really thank the men who have focused on learning how with the basic tools. I get sucked
into the gun porn vortex easily. It's good to find the voice of experience.

I'd kill to get to go to Blackwater. Some friends of mine have done it.

After much consideration I've put together what I think is the perfect tactical carbine setup.

> Colt 16" LW pencil barrel with A2 FS
> Colt A3 flattop upper
> Colt M16 bolt & carrier with SAW extra power extractor spring
> Colt Tactical Carbine AR15A3 lower
> Colt charging handle with PRI military big latch
> Colt tube with H-buffer and soon-to-be-added Wolff extra power action spring
> Crane clone stock body
> Aimpoint ML2 in ARMS 22m68 mount
> ARMS 40A2 BUIS
> KAC RAS II
> Dieter CQD VFG
> Surefire M962SU07 with SW02 tailcap and ARMS mount (may or may not use a YHM 5-slot angle-mount - haven't decided yet)
> Specter 3-point sling with front GG&G Sling Thing
> Dark Parts rail panels

Mags will be USGI with green followers and either SAW red springs of Wolff extra power mag springs.

This rifle is light, small, accurate, and quick.  Will post pics when I can take some.

ETA: I decided to make this one all-Colt so let's leave it at that; I wouldn't want this thread to deteriorate into people kicking each other in the nuts over yet another "Colt blows" discussion.