User Panel
Quoted:
On topic with the OP though, my favorite of the overall package piston AR designs is the LWRC design. The fit/finish is by far the best and the balance isn't bad at all, when you get the fluted barrel. I also like that the gas system adjustment can be done by hand on the fly and you can service the piston with the greatest of ease. View Quote I do wish the PWS mod 2 had gotten a selector like LWRC. Having to use a tool or a cartridge can be a bit of a pain. Is is better than the Noveske switchblock where you need to use their tool for adjustments. |
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I have six piston ARs listed below:
PWS, MOD1 9.75" 300BO SBR PWS, MOD1 10.75" .223 Wylde SBR PWS, MOD1 12.75" .223 Wylde SBR PWS, MOD1 16" .223 Wylde Adams Arms 16" 5.56 LMT 16" The LMT was my first piston gun and saw a lot of M855 through it. When shooting handloads it was able to shrink groups appreciably, to around .75-.80 MOA. The Adams Arms was my second piston gun and has served me well as a blaster/plinker/local competition gun, never measured groups on it as I pretty much stick to M193 or Wolf Gold (has shot Tula and Wolf Poly well in the past) PWS 10.75" was my third and shot a shitload of M193/M855 before I started to REALLY feel the hearing loss (wasn't doubling up on ear pro, like an idiot). Now it wears a Ferfrans CRD and is my go-to "shortie". PWS 16" I picked up because I wanted to see the difference between the 10.75 and 16, which it does FEEL softer than the SBR, still well balanced for a full size carbine, .8-.9 MOA with handloads off a bench. PWS 9.75" 300BO I picked up to start fiddling around with the new cartridge. With handloads it easily keeps groups around 1 MOA, less if I focus. PWS 12.75" was my last, and quickly became my favorite to shoot suppressed. This plus my SOCOM RC2 just "feels right", and goes to the range with me every time. A normal range session for me is 300-500 rounds of 5.56 (mostly for the 12.75" now) and the same amount for 9mm because my MP5K clone doesn't like to stay home. Add in 90-120 rounds of .38 SPL because I have a well-heeled 686 that is an attention whore |
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I should add that my LMT started life on an M2000 Defender lower with a standard buffer tube to which it did start to show a little bit of wear around the 500 round mark. I kept an eye on it for the next 2k rounds and eventually switched out to the PWS enhanced buffer tube and a Slash's heavy buffer (the one with the nub on it that fits into the back of the BCG). While it means I have to separate the upper and lower completely, there has NOT been a single sign of carrier tilt since that upgrade in 2011. Granted it doesn't get shot as much as it used to anymore (thanks to the PWS 12.75" and my MP5K clone), but it still does see regular trips every couple of months for a couple hundred rounds at a time. It does feel more front-heavy than the other piston systems, but still a great rifle and I won't be getting rid of it.
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To answer your questions: Favorite = none. Why = I've owned a few (see below) and they provide ZERO measurable performance improvement over a quality DI gun unless you SBR or suppress it. How does it compare = see the list I've owned. They all had varying degrees of reliability and the accuracy was not equal to DI guns of the same "quality". They also weighed more (harder to drive to the target / quicker to give shooter fatigue) and used proprietary parts. I was a complete convert to piston ARs a few years ago. I started collecting pistons and selling DIs. Eventually I decided to thoroughly test piston guns, and this led to me owning this list (because I couldn't find a piston gun that did anything better than a bone stock $800 Colt 6920): LWRC M6A1 LWRC M6A2 LWRC M6A3 LWRC M6SL 14.7 P/W LWRC M6SL 16 LWRC M6IC Basic Enhanced 14.7 P/W LWRC M6IC Basic Enhanced 16 (2) LWRC M6IC Fluted Enhanced 14.7 P/W (2) LWRC M6IC Fluted Enhanced 16 (2) POF Puritan (2) POF Minuteman I had five piston ARs at one time. I kept selling or trading them to try different models because once I started pushing them at the range I was disappointed in their performance. I had duplicates of a couple of models becuase I thought there had to be SOMETHING justifying the cost and hype. There was not. Piston ARs are a novelty. I wouldn't trust a LWRC in a class let alone in a SD situation. I had to send guns back to the manufacturers; I had cases stuck in the chamber so severely I broke cleaning rods beating them out; I had guns that wouldn't cycle Wolf ammo no matter which gas setting or buffer I used (I don't have a single DI that won't cycle 1000rds of Wolf without a single malfunction ... or cleaning); I had guns that wouldn't produce 3" groups at 100 yards with quality ammo (using a shooting bag as a rest on a bench); I had guns that had parts breakages. In short I found piston guns to be like the Bushmaster ACR....a very neat idea that doesn't work well. If you want a piston AR for a range toy...rock on! If you want an AR for anything serious...just buy a BCM, Colt, DD or KAC DI. View Quote Having had over a dozen different AR's over the decades, and four different LWRC rifles, two of which I still have and plan to keep. I've found them to be rock solid well built shooters. Heard of a few guys having an issue with a new rifle, CS fixed them right up. For you to claim that many bad rifles? You just kept getting them? If I had big problems with a product in that price range I would be done with that company. |
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I'm sorry, but I doubt your claims. I shoot my rifles quite a bit, always have. Having had over a dozen different AR's over the decades, and four different LWRC rifles, two of which I still have and plan to keep. I've found them to be rock solid well built shooters. Heard of a few guys having an issue with a new rifle, CS fixed them right up. For you to claim that many bad rifles? You just kept getting them? If I had big problems with a product in that price range I would be done with that company. View Quote If you love your guns - great. Mo' powa to ya. Pistons aren't for me. |
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Here's another...
Click me - Jackass #2 By the way, I actually owned considerably more piston guns that I mentioned....I just didn't' want to sound like I was bragging. For example: I actually had a total of SIX POF guns. I rarely mention guns, in threads like these, that I didn't buy new because I can't rule out negligence by the previous owner as a cause of problems. I had "several" more LWRC than mentioned. At least four of those were bought on this site. |
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Quoted:
To answer your questions: Favorite = none. Why = I've owned a few (see below) and they provide ZERO measurable performance improvement over a quality DI gun unless you SBR or suppress it. How does it compare = see the list I've owned. They all had varying degrees of reliability and the accuracy was not equal to DI guns of the same "quality". They also weighed more (harder to drive to the target / quicker to give shooter fatigue) and used proprietary parts. I was a complete convert to piston ARs a few years ago. I started collecting pistons and selling DIs. Eventually I decided to thoroughly test piston guns, and this led to me owning this list (because I couldn't find a piston gun that did anything better than a bone stock $800 Colt 6920): LWRC M6A1 LWRC M6A2 LWRC M6A3 LWRC M6SL 14.7 P/W LWRC M6SL 16 LWRC M6IC Basic Enhanced 14.7 P/W LWRC M6IC Basic Enhanced 16 (2) LWRC M6IC Fluted Enhanced 14.7 P/W (2) LWRC M6IC Fluted Enhanced 16 (2) POF Puritan (2) POF Minuteman I had five piston ARs at one time. I kept selling or trading them to try different models because once I started pushing them at the range I was disappointed in their performance. I had duplicates of a couple of models becuase I thought there had to be SOMETHING justifying the cost and hype. There was not. Piston ARs are a novelty. I wouldn't trust a LWRC in a class let alone in a SD situation. I had to send guns back to the manufacturers; I had cases stuck in the chamber so severely I broke cleaning rods beating them out; I had guns that wouldn't cycle Wolf ammo no matter which gas setting or buffer I used (I don't have a single DI that won't cycle 1000rds of Wolf without a single malfunction ... or cleaning); I had guns that wouldn't produce 3" groups at 100 yards with quality ammo (using a shooting bag as a rest on a bench); I had guns that had parts breakages. In short I found piston guns to be like the Bushmaster ACR....a very neat idea that doesn't work well. If you want a piston AR for a range toy...rock on! If you want an AR for anything serious...just buy a BCM, Colt, DD or KAC DI. View Quote |
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I'd have to check my records, but IIRC I ordered FIVE of the LWRC A2 uppers from CDNN when they were $799. Hey, three of them functioned 100% up to about 200rds!
ETA: I don't remember having any significant issues with the non-adjustable gas guns. The biggest problems were cyclic reliability with the IC Enhanced guns (adjustable gas). Even with carbine buffers I had problems. I also had broken parts (spring cups, selector). I do remember having an early two-pc BCG that had a loose key but can't remember if it was an adjustable gun. |
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what a troll post. you LWRC haters are hilarious with your BS claims. View Quote I'll make it easy for you all. I'll not return to this thread. Enjoy your piston guns. If they are your thing, and they do what you want them to do - cool. If not, head over to TOS and read up on what people who ship guns overseas to actual end users have to say. Iraqgunz would be a good starting place at TOS. Best wishes to you all. I sincerely hope you get what you want out of your piston ARs. |
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You can doubt all you want. As I mentioned, the adjustable gas guns were not reliable with cheap ammo. I had other issues. In the end, I didn't see the "advantage" to having a gun that was heavier, less accurate and used proprietary parts. There is no way for me to prove or you to disprove anything you see on the internet. I've been on this board since 2007 and have 518 feedback. Its not like just some guy. I've been here a long time, and based upon my feedback...at least the stuff I sell is as I say it is. If you love your guns - great. Mo' powa to ya. Pistons aren't for me. View Quote I'm going off my experience with this company, it's products I own, and since you seem to hate piston rifles, your tendency to make sure to come to a piston page-thread and spread the hater-aid. That's just how it looks to me, I don't know you sir. Either way, in your statement about owning many rifles at once I say BFD. I usually shoot one rifle at a time, and one is a DI. Shocking, isn't it? I find what works for me and shoot it like I stole it, usually keep what I like for quite a while. I have no safe queens. To sum it up, I don't know you, but your story looks and smells fishy to me. |
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By the way, this isn't impressive. A lot of guys on AR15.com have over a dozen ARs right now. View Quote PS, I don't buy things or do anything else in life to impress you, or anyone else. I do as I please, because, see above. |
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Quoted:
I'd have to check my records, but IIRC I ordered FIVE of the LWRC A2 uppers from CDNN when they were $799. Hey, three of them functioned 100% up to about 200rds! ETA: I don't remember having any significant issues with the non-adjustable gas guns. The biggest problems were cyclic reliability with the IC Enhanced guns (adjustable gas). Even with carbine buffers I had problems. I also had broken parts (spring cups, selector). I do remember having an early two-pc BCG that had a loose key but can't remember if it was an adjustable gun. View Quote I also bought 4 of those uppers and they've been flawless through about 2000 rounds each, at least. One has been running suppressed with a Halo...love that thing, but I do need to clean that particular one when I'm done with it. With a Vortex SparcII it's a freaking tack-driver...under an MOA if I do my part. It is possible I mis-read...apologies in advance if I did. Ymmv |
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I've owned a LOT of ARs over the years, and dang near every brand. In the DI world, I've had DD, Knights, Colt, S&W, Ruger, Bushmaster, LaRue and Remington among them.
In the Pistons, I've owned Sig, AA, Ruger, POF, PWC and LWRC. Except for one piston which I won't name because I bought it used, every single rifle has run flawlessly if properly maintained and would shoot well if I did my part...some slightly tighter, but not a significant difference worth mentioning. Pistons do run cleaner, no doubt and seem to need less maintenance. I've run hard classes with both styles, and both ran like sewing machines, and wouldn't hesitate to take either in a life and death situation. I sell one, buy another...for fun..it's a hobby, ya know? Every now and then I end up keeping one because I just can't part with it, and I will admit that now I have quite a few LWRCs, and the others have tended to be traded off. I like the consistency of their fit and finish, and there are some small differences if you look close... like where the operating rod contacts the face of the carrier...it's relieved to keep a consistent alignment... most are just a flat face. Does it make a difference in operation? Prob not... but it's one of the little things I've noticed that keep me wanting to not trade them off for another new toy. As always, just my 2 cents, and ymmv |
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I have been using D.I guns since 89 in both military capacity as well as L.E. I have both A1 and A2 rifles. They are great rifles. The A2 will be at Perry next year.
In 2011 i bought an LWRCI REPR to satisfy my need for a spotters rifle. Excellent rifle. The ONLY complaint is the need for the supplied gas selector tool after the rifle is thoroughly dirty. In 2013 i got a SIG 516. Again excellent rifle. Absolutely no complaints at all. In 2014 i built a 7.62x39 in midlength using an AA piston. Even Adams said the piston was not designed for that application. The "experts" all decreed that it would NEVER work. Today that carbine is the most favored of my rifles by everyone that shoots it. It will ring a 14" gong reliably at 500 yards with a 1-4x SWFA optic and walmart tula crap. What i have learned is this. My bcg is always clean and cool to the touch. This means the very fine extractor spring and ejector spring go thru no hightemp cycles. FTF and FTE are as good today as they were when i got them and will continue in the future. Cleaning consists of bore and gas piston and done. Lets not forget Gene designed the rifle to be piston. It was McNamarra and the whiz kids that demanded a lower cost per unit that sealed the deal on the lower cost D.I. system. That being said, i would not hesitate to use the design in either drive type on the battlefield If i were facing the Chineese at Inchong, id opt for a piston. There is no magic perfect rifle. They all have their strengths and weeknesses. Such as, the most common ammo in america a 55gr fmj. My 1/12" A1 throws it as good as any 1/7" throws a 75gr. The cool thing is the terminal balistics with that 55gr. But my 516 throws a 75gr the same distance except the terminal balistics is nowhere near as destructive. The A1 throws 68gr sideways well under 25 yards where the 516 throws the 55gr. reasonable at 100. So like drawing glof clubs for appropriate shots, rifle and ammo selection are no different. Gene gave us "The Cadillac of the Battlefield". I am grateful no matter what configuration or caliber. |
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I'd buy a Barrett myself. Looks like the best design, but that's based off vids. I hate the link in the PWS and doubly hate not having a forward assist.
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Quoted:
i have a Sig 716 and an LWRCi A5 in 6.8. people/haters will say that piston is only good for suppressors and DI is best. View Quote Many say piston "is a solution looking for a problem", but they seem to forgot other than ARs, almost modern assault rifles are piston driven, and no machine guns ever uses DI operation. On suppressed shooting, Piston guns has about the same amount of gas blow back to the face, from the ejection port, yes that is plenty of gas coming back from the barrel. My LR308 (DI) gets very dirty shooting suppressed. Just a little bit cleaner on my SCAR16s and POF P415, and on my AK with suppressor it's so bad it makes your eyes to tear. My favorite Piston is my POF P415 (the only piston AR I got), it works great eats any steel and brass ammo. It is Gen2 still very front heavy. |
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I don't understand why the need for some people to come to piston forum to lecture other we don't need piston in AR or vise versa.
Hey man, you shoot your DI AR, I'll shoot my Piston AR. It is America, we don't all have to shoot the same gun. Just look at California, you have to open your upper to change a magazine, there is definitively no AR needs. |
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I have two Adams Arms pistons and have no issues with either one, only thought I had with an 80% build lower, but was not the Adams upper.
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I've got two pistons, both use Adams Arms'. One is a retrofit to a Bushie, the other is pure Adams Arms. I love 'em both. I'll never go back to DI.
I think AA designed it right. |
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Happy LWRCI IC SPR owner here. I have given it low maintenance and a lot of rounds and she has never disappointed me. Also had a AA conversion kit on a aero precision for awhile that worked well, just wasn't a fan of using carbine length handguns for it, otherwise it was good to. I would not hesitate to buy another IC and the SPR has been very precise. Most of my use is 2 gun, range, and desert fun.
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I personally appreciate the perspective of piston users experiences, whether they like them or not but I'm the kind of person that is closed minded to others experiences whether positive or negative.
I have one of the 1st gen PWS/Addax piston guns with the tappet guide rod system. I actually think, mechanically it is better designed than the later gen rifles but definitely harder to clean the gas block and tappet parts, compared to the new gen design. I do prefer piston but just from my mechanical perspective(acft maintenance) Only have 1 piston AR and maybe 6 DI. |
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My favorite will always be my Black Rifle Arms CAPS piston upper. It's in 6.8SPC. Adjustable gas, FAB defense stock, ARP barrel. The dream 6.8 rifle.
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A review of the LMT piston guns v. HK 416
http://www.defensereview.com/lmt-mrp-pistonop-rod-system-vs-hk416-2000-round-head-to-head-test/ |
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I have a Leitner Wise 14.5 upper and a Ruger sr5.56. The Ruger is my only "matched" rifle (upper matches the lower) both are very nice bit even with a RRA match trigger on the LW, the Ruger is my favorite (for now)
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Happy LWRC SPR owner which has almost 4000 rounds through it now. Never had a single issue with it. Haven't tried any steel cased ammo in it. It does stay very clean and cleaning the piston system is real easy.
I just picked up an LWRC DI to give a try. Couldn't pass it up for just over $1000. I love the ambi lower and it is going to get a Trijicon Accupower 1-8 mil red reticle. Put 90 rounds through it the other day and it feels alright. I need some more experience with it when I receive my new Way of the Gun sling, the backup iron sights, scope, and light to see how it all balances and what kind of groups I can achieve. |
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Happy LWRC SPR owner which has almost 4000 rounds through it now. Never had a single issue with it. Haven't tried any steel cased ammo in it. It does stay very clean and cleaning the piston system is real easy. I just picked up an LWRC DI to give a try. Couldn't pass it up for just over $1000. I love the ambi lower and it is going to get a Trijicon Accupower 1-8 mil red reticle. Put 90 rounds through it the other day and it feels alright. I need some more experience with it when I receive my new Way of the Gun sling, the backup iron sights, scope, and light to see how it all balances and what kind of groups I can achieve. View Quote |
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I almost jumped at that but no more room in the safe's at the moment. You should do a write up on them, a lot of people have wondered about how they compare. That said with the lower as much as it is alone it's a great price, hands down the best lower I have ever had. View Quote |
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Newb here. First this is a great thread - thanks to GaryT1776 for his persistence and patience. The experience of so many guns and honest opinions is exactly why these forums are so valuable. And to all others, what a great discussion. So my take away is, the more guns the better. Budget aside, why wouldn’t we all have both DI and piston guns if not for the variety? In this vein, sounds like we need both a PWS an LWRC as these two seem to get a lot of praise and look like great guns. The LaRue is on order for the DI side. Thanks to all for the great info.
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Newb here. First this is a great thread - thanks to GaryT1776 for his persistence and patience. The experience of so many guns and honest opinions is exactly why these forums are so valuable. And to all others, what a great discussion. So my take away is, the more guns the better. Budget aside, why wouldn’t we all have both DI and piston guns if not for the variety? In this vein, sounds like we need both a PWS an LWRC as these two seem to get a lot of praise and look like great guns. The LaRue is on order for the DI side. Thanks to all for the great info. View Quote |
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I have two Sig 516's, one with a Trijicon MRO and the other with a Trijicon Accupower 1-8 scope. Both have been fantastic. Both have Gisele SSA-E triggers. Very pleased with both of them so far.
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I have a few piston rifles. Hands down my favorite is my PWS MK1 MOD1 114. It's not front heavy like my other pistons and dare as say well balanced! The craftsmanship is top of the line.
Second would be my LWRC M6A2-S. Craftsmanship is equally nice as PWS. It's definitely front heavy as all short stokes are. This doesn't effect my pure enjoyment of shooting this rifle. These two rifles will never leave my possession. |
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I have a few piston rifles. Hands down my favorite is my PWS MK1 MOD1 114. It's not front heavy like my other pistons and dare as say well balanced! The craftsmanship is top of the line. Second would be my LWRC M6A2-S. Craftsmanship is equally nice as PWS. It's definitely front heavy as all short stokes are. This doesn't effect my pure enjoyment of shooting this rifle. These two rifles will never leave my possession. View Quote |
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To be honest I'll probably not buy any other brands besides PWS. IMO these set the bar above any other. Everything about these rifles from quality, design, balance, looks etc. Is flat out bad ass. This is my SHTF forever rifle.
The reason I like the M6A2-S over their new models is the older design barrel. It's heavier but I think that's a good thing. |
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I have a lwrc six8 a5 and a pws mk116. Shot them both today. I prefer the six8, this may be just me but I think the ergonomics of this rifle is better than the pws. I’m going to try to find and shoot some other lwrc rifles to compare. I also shot a lmt 12.5”barrel today and a kac sr15 the lmt was great Didn’t put too many rounds down range with the Kac.
I’m a total novice AR shooter by the way. |
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To be honest I'll probably not buy any other brands besides PWS. IMO these set the bar above any other. Everything about these rifles from quality, design, balance, looks etc. Is flat out bad ass. This is my SHTF forever rifle. The reason I like the M6A2-S over their new models is the older design barrel. It's heavier but I think that's a good thing. View Quote I'll never say never, too many outstanding products on the market for that. DI, piston, brand, whatever, right tool for the job and all that. |
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Agreed heavier isn't always better but I've heard some say the fluted barrel harmonics isn't as good. Possibly just bs also but mine is very accurate & I have no reason to trade it out.
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Agreed heavier isn't always better but I've heard some say the fluted barrel harmonics isn't as good. Possibly just bs also but mine is very accurate & I have no reason to trade it out. View Quote I like the fluted barrels. They seem accurate, I would not be a SME on this, I zeroed Aimpoints on the two I have now, other than that, they never get fired from a bench. |
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built this using an osprey defense piston kit and a spikes 14.5" barrel. it runs like a top and is very soft shooting https://i.imgur.com/5PTUlyu.jpg View Quote |
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