Quoted: With Bravo Company USA offering Colt quality rifles at affordable prices, I don't see why someone would opt for an S&W AR-15.

With all due respect to Bravo Company USA, Colt builds/sells to our military- over 5,000 M4's every month. Not that volume is everything, but it does give them the justification for the manpower necessary to have all possible QC measures in place.



Smith & Wesson has a long-standing established L/E network that they will play on. Our (civvie) buys will be gravy.

...................and I suppose there are some die-hard S&W fans out there.

Does look exactly like my 6920 with a S&W rollmark. I guess we'll see more next month at SHOT show.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if it will have correct feed ramps...  And a M-16 carrier.   Who cares?  Neither is necessary for semi automatic operation. WRONG

Bullshit.  Step away from the Kool Aid.  5000 rounds without either and not a single failure says you and all the other Kolt Kult are full of shit.

Quoted: I'm in for one I don't see a logical reason for all the bitching an moaning thats going on. Another American manufacturer wants to jump on the bandwagon of making quality "black rifles" for us to enjoy. What's not to like? Granted if these turn out to be complete POS's then bitch away. But until you have one in your physical possession for a complete and thourough examination STFU

BIG +1

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if it will have correct feed ramps...  And a M-16 carrier.   Who cares?  Neither is necessary for semi automatic operation. WRONG Bullshit.  Step away from the Kool Aid.  5000 rounds without either and not a single failure says you and all the other Kolt Kult are full of shit.

I would like you to explain why deep cut feedramps exist then if you are such an expert.  I never said they were absolutely necessary either.

Or you can just fuck off.

Great, another manufacturer to add to the collection...

Quoted: Quoted: .... The M&P15 will carry a suggested retail price of $1,200, while the M&P15T will retail for $1,700. What are they thinking?

Maybe they are thinking that people actually understand the term SUGGESTED retail price.

For example, the SUGGESTED retail price of a Bushmaster M4 is $1210.00.

I'm such a slut I'll probably get one 'just because'.

I'll stick with Bushmaster or RRA thank you, but if Glock ever entered the market, well that would be something special.

Quoted: Found this. Looks pretty good!! i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/charnmike/8320bd65.jpg

While I see nothing wrong with it, I also don't see anything exceptional about it. It looks exactly like every other M-4gery currently available save the dual sling mount up front.

Quoted: Quoted: Found this. Looks pretty good!! i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/charnmike/8320bd65.jpg This appears to be photoshop of a Colt.  Do you have a source for this image?

And why are there two sling mounts on the front??  Anyone else catch that!

If they can sell a complete AR with high quality rails, BUIS etc as a system, it should do ok. Nobody is doing that right now.

I won't buy one, because I can put together my own ARs, but there are people out there who will.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: .... The M&P15 will carry a suggested retail price of $1,200, while the M&P15T will retail for $1,700. What are they thinking? Maybe they are thinking that people actually understand the term SUGGESTED retail price. For example, the SUGGESTED retail price of a Bushmaster M4 is $1210.00.

I paid $950. for the rifle your speaking of at my local gun store last summer.  This was the M4A3 MSRP $1,210  Could have gotten it $100 less without the carry handel.   Might have been able to get them down a bit more but everybody has to live.  Your right, MSRP means nothing.  Good excuse to get another AR if you ask me.   I like S&W.
Hope the stock goes up even more with a sucessful product.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if it will have correct feed ramps...  And a M-16 carrier.   Who cares?  Neither is necessary for semi automatic operation. WRONG Bullshit.  Step away from the Kool Aid.  5000 rounds without either and not a single failure says you and all the other Kolt Kult are full of shit. I would like you to explain why deep cut feedramps exist then if you are such an expert.  I never said they were absolutely necessary either. Or you can just fuck off.

deep cut feedramps exist to aid feeding for fully automatic operation.  holy shit.

fun fact: did you know people have been shooting M16 pattern carbines for more than 10 years?  With the extra 1.5 oz of aluminum?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if it will have correct feed ramps...  And a M-16 carrier.   Who cares?  Neither is necessary for semi automatic operation. WRONG Bullshit.  Step away from the Kool Aid.  5000 rounds without either and not a single failure says you and all the other Kolt Kult are full of shit. I would like you to explain why deep cut feedramps exist then if you are such an expert.  I never said they were absolutely necessary either. Or you can just fuck off.

You need to seriously get a life.  I've never seen such a serious brand-name geek in all of my life.

I don't give a flying fuck why M4 ramps exist.  For 5000 rounds my rifle has been sending lead downrange without EVER missing a beat without the help of all you faggot-ass Kolt TactiKool shit.

Is your whole identity tied up in what people think of Colt?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The M&P15T, with its high-end accessory package, features folding front and rear battle sights and a four-sided equipment rail system that allows the addition of accessories, such as lights, laser-aiming devices, and vertical grips. The rifle measures 35 inches in length when fully extended and has an unloaded weight of 6.85 pounds BCM? MI rails and sights (rear buis)? Anymore hints? Nope, not BCM or MI.

What are we trying to guess? What line S&W is taking over to bring the rifle to market?

Let me look into the crystal ball... I see.... it starts with a "T"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if it will have correct feed ramps...  And a M-16 carrier.   Who cares?  Neither is necessary for semi automatic operation. WRONG Bullshit.  Step away from the Kool Aid.  5000 rounds without either and not a single failure says you and all the other Kolt Kult are full of shit. I would like you to explain why deep cut feedramps exist then if you are such an expert.  I never said they were absolutely necessary either. Or you can just fuck off.

M4 feed ramps were added to the rifle "because the high full auto rof and bolt velocity were causing the round stack to bounce and rounds were being stripped with a nose down attitude"

...it also allowed for a patent renewal due to design improvement...

I will reserve judgement until I see more details and street price.

As a general rule though, I love having more options. In the politically correct world we live in now it's good to see a house-hold name gun maker who isn't afraid to go into the "evil assault weapons" market.

Never thought that I would the day when S&W was making more versions of Colt guns than Colt was.  Maybe a Smith Python or single action arms is next!  Actually there are some who think that a single action Colt is coming from Smith.

Whether this will work out for Smith or not I don't know.  I do know, however, that some of the early M&P semi-automatics are having problems and problems that were never solved on their Sigma's.  Pins backing out.

And sales of the 460 magnum have apparently been disappointing.

So Smith needs a big winner soon or maybe they'll go the way of Winchester.

Quoted: M4 feed ramps were added to the rifle "because the high full auto rof and bolt velocity were causing the round stack to bounce and rounds were being stripped with a nose down attitude" ...it also allowed for a patent renewal due to design improvement...

Explain to me how the gun cycles differently in full auto rather than semi.

Quoted: You need to seriously get a life.  I've never seen such a serious brand-name geek in all of my life. I don't give a flying fuck why M4 ramps exist.  For 5000 rounds my rifle has been sending lead downrange without EVER missing a beat without the help of all you faggot-ass Kolt TactiKool shit. Is your whole identity tied up in what people think of Colt?

I never said they were absolutly necessary.  I don't know what this has to do with me being a Colt fanboy.  I never said your gun was a POS because it didn't have them.

You said they were for full auto use.  This is wrong.  What does this have to do with anything else?

I do wish Smith and Wesson the best of luck in the crowded market.  As far as 1911s, my last issued M1911A1 (last year in Iraq) had a Smith and Wesson barrel that was made in the 60s.  Always liked the Smith Schofield SA revolver myself and prefer the K frame and N frames over the Phyton.  Just remember that it was Smith and Wesson that came out with the metallic cartridge in 1860 (.22 short)!  Then Oliver Winchester bought the patents to the Henry rifle who had reworked Smith and Wesson Volcanic lever action pistol .  Remember all you Colt guys that the M1911 was not designed by Colt nor the AR15, they bought the rights to manufactuer the product.

CD

tag.

awesome.

more diversity in products = lower prices/better quality

Marketing 101

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if it will have correct feed ramps...  And a M-16 carrier.   Who cares?  Neither is necessary for semi automatic operation. WRONG Bullshit.  Step away from the Kool Aid.  5000 rounds without either and not a single failure says you and all the other Kolt Kult are full of shit. I would like you to explain why deep cut feedramps exist then if you are such an expert.  I never said they were absolutely necessary either. Or you can just fuck off. You need to seriously get a life.  I've never seen such a serious brand-name geek in all of my life. I don't give a flying fuck why M4 ramps exist.  For 5000 rounds my rifle has been sending lead downrange without EVER missing a beat without the help of all you faggot-ass Kolt TactiKool shit. Is your whole identity tied up in what people think of Colt?

Hey AHole, your 1 rifle is not the entire AR world.  Feed ramps are like insurance, you hope everything is always perfect but sometimes you get a mag or a round that is a bit off and those feed ramps will save you.  It's not just for full auto, it's for the weak mag springs and worn gear that those of us who actually work with our rifles get from real world use...not "one time at the range" or "I saw on the discovery chanel".  

If you can't contribute, STFU!  Nobody was even talking about Colt.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if it will have correct feed ramps...  And a M-16 carrier.   Who cares?  Neither is necessary for semi automatic operation. WRONG Bullshit.  Step away from the Kool Aid.  5000 rounds without either and not a single failure says you and all the other Kolt Kult are full of shit. I would like you to explain why deep cut feedramps exist then if you are such an expert.  I never said they were absolutely necessary either. Or you can just fuck off. You need to seriously get a life.  I've never seen such a serious brand-name geek in all of my life. I don't give a flying fuck why M4 ramps exist.  For 5000 rounds my rifle has been sending lead downrange without EVER missing a beat without the help of all you faggot-ass Kolt TactiKool shit. Is your whole identity tied up in what people think of Colt? Hey AHole, your 1 rifle is not the entire AR world.  Feed ramps are like insurance, you hope everything is always perfect but sometimes you get a mag or a round that is a bit off and those feed ramps will save you.  It's not just for full auto, it's for the weak mag springs and worn gear that those of us who actually work with our rifles get from real world use...not "one time at the range" or "I saw on the discovery chanel".   If you can't contribute, STFU!  Nobody was even talking about Colt.

And your contributions to this thread are, what?  

Oh, I forgot, you are some super-dooper-ninja-secret-private-military-contractor.  I will stand down before you melt me down with your Chuck Norris stare of death.

When Chuck Norris types, he makes the screen Bleed;)  

Geeezzz...and I just kinda tossed this one out there as a heads up not to start trouble. I am curious to see the finished product and would consider buying one. hippie.gif

Quoted:Sorry I hope they drown in the market... but who can forget what they pulled during the Clinton regime.

S&W, during the Klinton era was run by a British Co.  Colton Melby of Scottsdale, AZ bought S&W a few years ago.  The company now is nothing like it was before.  The NRA had called for a boycott of the "old" S&W, but has now endorsed it under the new ownership and direction.

Quoted: Quoted:Sorry I hope they drown in the market... but who can forget what they pulled during the Clinton regime. S&W, during the Klinton era was run by a British Co.  Colton Melby of Scottsdale, AZ bought S&W a few years ago.  The company now is nothing like it was before.  The NRA had called for a boycott of the "old" S&W, but has now endorsed it under the new ownership and direction.

+1

Some people need to get with the program.

Okay, cool that another company is stepping up to the black rifle plate.

BUT it would be nice if they'd, you know, innovate. Something new. FN seems to be the only large company coming up with something REALLY new.

Wow, my hats off to S&W for adding a AR to their line-up. They really seem to be turning that company around. The new pistol models look great.

I am glad that S&W is making an AR.  They made a 1911 when everyone said we didn't need another one.  Now their 1911s have a pretty loyal following and a reputation as a fine pistol.  Hopefully, they will do as well with their ARs

Quoted: Wow, my hats off to S&W for adding a AR to their line-up. They really seem to be turning that company around. The new pistol models look great.

I agree.  S&W is doing business the right way nowadays.

FWIW, S&W's dealer price is usually 30% off retail.

Quoted: Okay, cool that another company is stepping up to the black rifle plate. BUT it would be nice if they'd, you know, innovate. Something new. FN seems to be the only large company coming up with something REALLY new.

That might be because FN has deeper pockets to do R&D with than just about anyone except maybe Beretta.

Thursday, January 19, 2006

Hi Guys:

I think that it is great that S&W is entering the Commercial AR15 Rifle Market.  The key here is QUALITY and AVAILABILITY!   A major, commercial, and domestic firearms manufacturer with a long and well-proven history of manufacturing excellent firearms making available to the shooting public a quality AR15 is great for us!

We all read on this website posting after posting of complaint after complaint of this being wrong with a AR or that being wrong with a AR; a quality AR made by a major gun manufacture should silence all of the complaints against the likes of Olympic Arms, Bushmaster, or Joe-Blow Inc.  This is, of course depends if the persons who complain about their cheep AR not working right will spend the money to get a quality S&W AR.

I cannot wait to see an S&W AR when I get to the SHOT Show next month!  If I was Olympic Arms or Bushmaster, I would be shiting my pants big-time!

Take Care Guys….

MP5 Machinenpistole  

Quoted: Thursday, January 19, 2006 Hi Guys: I think that it is great that S&W is entering the Commercial AR15 Rifle Market.  The key here is QUALITY and AVAILABILITY!   A major, commercial, and domestic firearms manufacturer with a long and well-proven history of manufacturing excellent firearms making available to the shooting public a quality AR15 is great for us! We all read on this website posting after posting of complaint after complaint of this being wrong with a AR or that being wrong with a AR; a quality AR made by a major gun manufacture should silence all of the complaints against the likes of Olympic Arms, Bushmaster, or Joe-Blow Inc.  This is, of course depends if the persons who complain about their cheep AR not working right will spend the money to get a quality S&W AR. I cannot wait to see an S&W AR when I get to the SHOT Show next month!  If I was Olympic Arms or Bushmaster, I would be shiting my pants big-time! Take Care Guys…. MP5 Machinenpistole

If Sig shows their 55s and FN shows SCAR no one is going to give a shit about S&W unless it fires phased plasma in a 40-watt range

Quoted: Quoted: M4 feed ramps were added to the rifle "because the high full auto rof and bolt velocity were causing the round stack to bounce and rounds were being stripped with a nose down attitude" ...it also allowed for a patent renewal due to design improvement... Explain to me how the gun cycles differently in full auto rather than semi.

Didn't have time for this one last night, sorry...

The difference between the operation of a rifle in semi and full auto is the rate of fire... in full auto the rifle fires much faster, often over 700 or even 900 rounds per minute vice 100+ in semi auto fire.

Because the actual cycling of the rifle is nearly identical in either mode (the unlocking, extracting, ejecting, loading and locking of the bolt assy), the difference in the rate is made up by shortening the time between shots... herein lies a big part of the problem.

In high speed video testing of the M4 using cut away and clear magazines, the round stack is observed to bounce violently... in semi auto fire this is not a problem as there is enough time between trigger pulls for the magazine spring to properly compress and seat the round stack and align the top round in the magazine. In full auto fire, this is not always the case... curiously the rifle does speed up in full auto fire (the bolt velocity is higher) this is largely attributed to the fact that as the force of the top round against the bolt is negated, the friction that accompanies it is reduced and the bolt cycles faster, some also think that there are harmonics setup in the rifle that move the rifle back and forth along the long axis, effectively shortening the travel of the bolt stroke.

As a result of the round stack being bounced and not having time to get its collective stuff together, it is observed that the top round is occasionally stripped from the magazine with a nose down attitude, this is exacerbated by the use of heavier and longer bullets (slightly)... when the round is stripped like this, it has a tendancy to jam into the upper receiver below the traditional feed ramp cuts that exist in the barrel extension only...

This is pronounced problem with the carbine length gas system, as a result of the fact that the gun is over gassed and bolt velocities are high in either mode of fire... internal bolt pressures between the rifle and carbine sytems differ, with the carbine being more than 50% higher than the rifle pressures! For this reason, I would prefer the cuts on any carbine, in either mode of fire... but then, a mid-length gas tube seems to tame things pretty nicely and only cost ten bucks.

Quoted: Quoted: Thursday, January 19, 2006 Hi Guys: I think that it is great that S&W is entering the Commercial AR15 Rifle Market.  The key here is QUALITY and AVAILABILITY!   A major, commercial, and domestic firearms manufacturer with a long and well-proven history of manufacturing excellent firearms making available to the shooting public a quality AR15 is great for us! We all read on this website posting after posting of complaint after complaint of this being wrong with a AR or that being wrong with a AR; a quality AR made by a major gun manufacture should silence all of the complaints against the likes of Olympic Arms, Bushmaster, or Joe-Blow Inc.  This is, of course depends if the persons who complain about their cheep AR not working right will spend the money to get a quality S&W AR. I cannot wait to see an S&W AR when I get to the SHOT Show next month!  If I was Olympic Arms or Bushmaster, I would be shiting my pants big-time! Take Care Guys…. MP5 Machinenpistole   If Sig shows their 55s and FN shows SCAR no one is going to give a shit about S&W unless it fires phased plasma in a 40-watt range

AMEN to that!  But I wonder if people would really pay more money for a 5.56 rifle...  You see a lot of threads about saving money, "My less expensive brand X rifle is just as good", "What's the least expensive rifle I can get to do this"...    I wonder if those folks would pay for the extra performance of a Sig or FN.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thursday, January 19, 2006 Hi Guys: I think that it is great that S&W is entering the Commercial AR15 Rifle Market.  The key here is QUALITY and AVAILABILITY!   A major, commercial, and domestic firearms manufacturer with a long and well-proven history of manufacturing excellent firearms making available to the shooting public a quality AR15 is great for us! We all read on this website posting after posting of complaint after complaint of this being wrong with a AR or that being wrong with a AR; a quality AR made by a major gun manufacture should silence all of the complaints against the likes of Olympic Arms, Bushmaster, or Joe-Blow Inc.  This is, of course depends if the persons who complain about their cheep AR not working right will spend the money to get a quality S&W AR. I cannot wait to see an S&W AR when I get to the SHOT Show next month!  If I was Olympic Arms or Bushmaster, I would be shiting my pants big-time! Take Care Guys…. MP5 Machinenpistole   If Sig shows their 55s and FN shows SCAR no one is going to give a shit about S&W unless it fires phased plasma in a 40-watt range AMEN to that!  But I wonder if people would really pay more money for a 5.56 rifle...  You see a lot of threads about saving money, "My less expensive brand X rifle is just as good", "What's the least expensive rifle I can get to do this"...    I wonder if those folks would pay for the extra performance of a Sig or FN.

People can afford to go cheap in the ar15 community because you can build an ar15 for cheap. That option is there. On the other hand people that like HK's and SIG's already know that if you want to play you better pony up the dough.

Look at the HK pro forum and Sig forum. They are thriving with members despite the higher cost of entry for HK and Sig products. Those communitys are filled with people that will drop bank for a carbine. Hell my last SIG pistol cost almost as much as a STAG M4

I think every firearms manufacturer in the US should make at least one variant of "America's Rifle."

We still need Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Henry, Kimber, Springfield Armory, Marlin, Savage, and Para-Ordnance to get in the game.

I would really like to see a Kimber AR15.

Don't count on Winchester to produce them like the M1 or M14.  They are closing their doors 31 Mar 06 if you haven't heard.

CD

Quoted: Don't count on Winchester to produce them like the M1 or M14.  They are closing their doors 31 Mar 06 if you haven't heard. CD

I hadn't. thanks for the heads up. I wonder if that includes their ammo division.

Quoted: Quoted: Don't count on Winchester to produce them like the M1 or M14.  They are closing their doors 31 Mar 06 if you haven't heard. CD I hadn't. thanks for the heads up. I wonder if that includes their ammo division.

Winchester ammo is made by Olin and will continue.

Para Ord. is a Canadian company...

I like that S&W is in the AR game.  But I have no doubt that their main focus will be on the LEO market.

Quoted: Found this. Looks pretty good!!

Looks like every other M4 variant I have seen.

Quoted: Quoted: Found this. Looks pretty good!! i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/charnmike/8320bd65.jpg Looks like every other M4 variant I have seen.

I was kind hoping for a matte stainless M4.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm such a slut I'll probably get one 'just because'. Me too. I just hope I can get stripped receivers! I think an AR with an S&W logo would be a pretty cool addition to the colloection. It seems the initial run will be from Stag/CMT. That would mean 1/9 twist with rifle extensions unless S&W ordered off the menu. We know they will be good quality and maybe  a little more expensive for that roll mark.  If these things sell well, you can bet S&W will bring manufacturing in house. If I can get them for a good enough price to bring them to you guys with a discount, you can bet I will be selling them. www.TalonArms.com

NOW WE'RE TALKING!!!