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Posted: 11/12/2005 10:23:42 AM EDT
[#1]
Its funny that everyone thinks that this "new" HG is the cats meow, when not a single person has even held one yet. (besides maybe talon) What has Samson done with this rail system that makes it so revolutionary? Its the same as the YHM and MI in design. Its a two piece that locks into the delta ring and HG cap. Big fucking deal. Its a rehash of everything YHM and MI has done already. And to a smaller extent SureFire and KAC, who first came out with 2-piece rail Handguards. Talon saying one dealer is cutting corners and implying that they are not as good as product as you are selling, without any other offering of proof other than price, is trashy to say the least. Odds are you haven't ever held a MI product, let alone actually measure anything of value. There is a huge profit margin on all AR-15 accessories. I guess your product must be shit compared to KAC since they are $75-$100 more expensive than yours, and YHM and MI are made out of lead and pot metal and imported from Ethiopia.  I guess everybody forgot the time when LaRue came out with their FF rails almost a $100 cheaper than DD and KAC. No dealers were saying that LaRue was trash. LaRue even had the locking collar. Samson only offers slightly a slightly thinner profile and loses 2 oz. at the cost of $70+ of the competition. And everyone who brags about 2 oz. will probably end up loading all kind of optics, flashlights and VFG to offset any weight savings gained by the HG. Edited for grammer/LaRue |
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Posted: 11/12/2005 11:07:47 AM EDT
[#2]
You are so transparent that it's almost funny. It has nothing to do with whether your comment above was inaccurate or not. Frankly I could care less. My point is your comments were inappropriate and not without ulterior motives. They have nothing to do with this rail or this thread but I knew you would try to find a way to work them in. That's why I tried to forewarn the unknowing ahead of time because I knew it was just a matter of time. You can try to justify your actions here all you want but you are not fooling anybody.
I have zero interest in discussing this, or any other issue, with you here, there or anywhere. Now please stop shitting on this thread. |
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Posted: 11/12/2005 11:25:33 AM EDT
[#3]
Make no mistake, I'm not saying one is better than the other. I simply stated that copying existing designs is ONE way to cut corners. As far as the Samson rail being better I have no idea, I don't have one. |
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Posted: 11/12/2005 2:48:32 PM EDT
[#4]
You are so transparent that it's almost funny. It has nothing to do with whether your comment above was inaccurate or not.
Interesting. So you call me a troll and are not sure whether my comments are correct or not. Frankly I could care less. You must care as you took the time to respond to my comments. People who don't care, don't respond. My point is your comments were inappropriate and not without ulterior motives. Provide PROOF. Can't? Didn't think so. It is simply your opinion which is NOT any better than mine. They have nothing to do with this rail or this thread but I knew you would try to find a way to work them in. Your right (for once). Why would I make a comment on the new Samson rail (which I did not)?? I have NEVER even handled it so why would I give my opinion on it? On the other hand, TalonArms commented on the quality of the MI rail, but yet has never handled one. That's why I tried to forewarn the unknowing ahead of time because I knew it was just a matter of time. You can try to justify your actions here all you want but you are not fooling anybody. Just to set the record straight, I never commented on the new Samson rail. Another member posted that the MI rail was cheaper and that he didn't think the Samson rail was a better deal. I did not say it and or even respond to it. The Samson rail has got the MI rail beat in weight and diameter. If people feel that is worth the price difference then so be it. It is not for me to decide. I have zero interest in discussing this, or any other issue, with you here, there or anywhere. Now please stop shitting on this thread. So you like to call me a troll for what I am saying, but cannot prove that what I have said is wrong. Show me where I have "shit" on this thread??? If anything, I would think you should be attacking the person in this thread that bad mouthed another companies product without even handling it.  C4 |
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Posted: 11/13/2005 3:09:41 PM EDT
[#5]
I NEVER said anything like that. I said that they are cutting cost somewhere. PERIOD. You want to blast a dealer for pissing on other companies products, you better pick another dealer. 
 That is the funniest thing I have heard all day! What do you think about that one C4i? I guess we better cut back on the Champagne and Caviar.  |
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Posted: 11/13/2005 3:27:33 PM EDT
[#6]
This is a good post. The Samson rails are lighter and thinner. Both good things, correct? And 20% more expensive and about 20% lighter weight. That sounds reasonable to me. One thing I can say about Samson is that they have a patented tool system to measure all dimensions of each rail to make sure they are truly Picatinny mil-spec. I have no idea how MI measures their rails or if the do at all. I do know that another dealer on this website likes to point out how companies like LaRue and Samson can guarantee the quality of their rails through superior testing processes. These companies' products cost more. Maybe MI is in this class, maybe not. That is for him to decide. He seems to know everything about everything. I am sure he will let us know. For the record, the only people who have the Samson drop ins are in uniform. No dealers have them. |
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Posted: 11/13/2005 6:28:10 PM EDT
[#7]
About 1.5 to 2 years ago a dealer did post saying that there was a large profit margin on almost all quality AR accessories. But of course this was before LaRue, and almost other mid-end rail systems. ARMS, KAC, YHM (early models), SureFire were about the only things going for rails. And the first two cost well over standard $250 for a carbine FF rail. But this was also before the EE looked like the Sale Ads from the Sunday paper. (Whether this is still the case I dont know but it was at one time). Talon, you seem like a good guy, I've asked you for quotes before on Sabre items and thought your group buy was good, but your comments seemed rude-even it it was not ment to be. |
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Posted: 11/13/2005 6:40:49 PM EDT
[#8]
For the record, MI is running a state of the art machining center. Materials are also cheaper when you buy a half mile of it verses 200 feet. They inspect every rail several times throughout the manufacturing process to insure they are in spec.
Speaking of .Mil contracts, the USMC has been buying MI products (rails and BUIS's) for some time now in large QTY's. C4 |
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Posted: 11/13/2005 7:09:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Are they buying the 2 piece handguards? |
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Posted: 11/13/2005 8:50:02 PM EDT
[#10]
So you are saying the Army is buying Samson MRFs for troop issue? To replace or merely supplement the RIS?
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Posted: 11/13/2005 9:51:44 PM EDT
[#11]
I did not mean to be rude, so you do get a sincere apology. I just want the record absolutely straight. I did not say a single bad word about MI. As Grant posted behind me, they may be buying massive quanities of material which would be a cost saving measure. All I said to begin with was "they are cutting cost somewhere" NOT cutting corners or offer a lower quailty product! I was just responding to what you posted and it seemed you were putting words in my mouth. So, if MI is cutting costs by buying more materials, then I was right on target. I am sure you were not trying to be rude to me either.  |
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Posted: 11/13/2005 10:02:00 PM EDT
[#12]
They are for troop issue and I would guess that it is to suppliment the existing equipment. Don't get me wrong. The Army buys A LOT of equipment from many different suppliers. They probably buy 100x as much gear from ARMS as Samson. Samson is just a new player. And a small one compared to a company like ARMS. The point is, Samson is swimming in the big pond now. I wish them the best and I hope they continue to grow. With the quality they offer, ther is no reason to expect they would not. |
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Posted: 11/14/2005 3:38:54 AM EDT
[#13]
Yes, the #17. C4 |
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Posted: 11/14/2005 1:12:07 PM EDT
[#14]
First of all Rob, you were not being rude by making the comment about MI cutting costs somewhere and to think you owe that guy an apology is absolutly absurd. These people need to go take a s*** and get it out of their system so they can keep it out of your thread. If we are going by some of the mentality shown here why did LaRue , DD and any others start making rail system when ONE company already made one? It is called CHOICE. You guys go buy your MI stuff and stay away from Samson's rails. That is your CHOICE. No one here bashed MI's stuff. Only comments were made. Now go troll somewhere else and stay out of Rob's thread if you have nothing better to say. This was a technical discussion wasn't it?
ETA: I own a Samson rail system and a Troy rail system just for the record. They are both great rails with subtle differences. I am not going to say which one I think is better so as not to feed the  's here.
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Posted: 11/14/2005 5:44:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Very interesting. |
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Posted: 11/14/2005 6:53:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Well, I didn't participate in any troll crap, but I had to listen to the scolding anyway!
 Now back to the technical issues: I just bought an MI two-piece rail handguard and the worksmanship was very nice, but in terms of design the thing seems heavy... It looks like the Samson design has machined in the handguard/slip ring and handguard cap interface directly into the handguard itself, instead of having seperate inserts like the MI and the similar YHM two-piece rail. Perhaps this is a reason for its lighter weight... But, if the US military deems these items good enough for issue to combat troops, who am I to nitpick? |
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Posted: 11/14/2005 7:00:15 PM EDT
[#17]
I do like the fact that there are no screws to come loose. |
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Posted: 11/30/2005 3:19:29 PM EDT
[#18]
A big fat THANK YOU to Mr. Samson for kicking loose one set of drop ins for me to T&E.
 First off, I am not surprised how well they are made. I was expecting a great fit and finish and I am not disappointed! The new bead blasteing Samson is using makes the newer rails an even closer match to the deep black of the upper receivers of LMT, Sabre Defense, RRA and others. They drop in as expected. What I was surprised by is how tight they fit. These things lock up very tight. Samson has anti-rotational pins that index with the barrel not to keep the rails from spinning or even slipping. Here is a pic of the inside of the rail and the pins:  And here is a pic of the MRFS DI on a Sabre Defense M4 type upper with the 14.5" barrel:  These are the perfect rails for someone who wants light weight and ease of installation and does not need free float for optics. I hope to have these in stock in about two weeks. Just in time for Sandy Claws to bring them out for the good kids.  [email protected] to get on the list! |
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Posted: 11/30/2005 3:53:03 PM EDT
[#19]
They look great Rob!
I might have to get a set for my 14.5" Sabre build
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Posted: 11/30/2005 5:34:04 PM EDT
[#20]
C4, I'm sorry but the USMC has not been buying MI products in large qtys. Maybe a couple for testing but not large qty. You wont find a single Marine on ar15.com that has seen any rail not made by Knights or any kind of BUIS other than the carry handle. The Corps is a small world and everyone has the same shit. This would be on the cover of Marine Times if it was true. I'm sorry you had to hear this from me.
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Posted: 11/30/2005 5:42:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Southfloridaguns,
That is my fault - sorry about that. I was having a conversation with Grant and I told him it was the USMC. I mispoke - it was the Airforce. The USMC have some samples at Quantico. But the Airforce has purchased a good number of them (more than 100 but less than 1000). That info is specific to the MI #17C handguards. I hope this info helps. Thanks and Semper Fi, Paul And back on topic, those Samson rails look very nice addition to the market. |
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Posted: 11/30/2005 5:46:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Thanks Paul for the correction. C4 |
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Posted: 11/30/2005 5:51:04 PM EDT
[#23]
Bravo, no problems. In fact I just bought a midlength MI rail from you a couple days ago. Should be here in a day or two. I'll be sure to bitch if it sucks ass. Or hype it up. Either way.
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Posted: 11/30/2005 6:11:23 PM EDT
[#24]
Any update on when the rifle length forend will be available?
Any info on whether the rifle length forend will fit on an Armalite AR10 with 20" barrel? Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/30/2005 6:48:34 PM EDT
[#25]
I think it's pretty clear C4iGrant didn't come into this thread to bash a Samson product, he came into this thread to respond to someone making what might be construed as pretty negative comments about MI products, which he sells. If he thought MI products were crap, he probably wouldn't sell them.
I haven't seen anywhere in this thread where he had anything negative to say about this new 2 piece handguard. Personally, I think it looks like it will be a great product -- and I currently own some MI 2 piece rails (on my Sabre upper from Talon Arms!) . The difference between the two seems to be the weight and number of parts; that more than explains the price difference. The extra machining surely has to increase the cost to some extent, and I'm willing to bet that MI decided that the bolt-on end pieces are more cost effective for some reason or other. I'm very happy with my MI rail but it's pretty damn heavy; next time I might give one of these a try. The price isn't really that much more. Now lets get back to the gratuitous rail photos! |
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Posted: 11/30/2005 11:40:33 PM EDT
[#26]
This was a great post IMO. Cleared a lot of the mumbo jumbo up. No one was crapping on anyone else. Maybe people are just taking too much offense? Cool off, it's just a thread. On that note, am I correct in saying these samson 2 piece hg's are NOT free float? |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 12:02:36 AM EDT
[#27]
C4iGrant, do the MI FF tubes go on without having to remove the FSB, like the GG&G or Troy FF tubes?
At $163 that is very competitive, and i'd be interested in it if it can be installed without removing the FSB. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 3:40:02 AM EDT
[#28]
IM sent. C4 |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 6:25:07 AM EDT
[#29]
which is also what Samson did ... LOL or wiat he jsut stole it from the other guys... and he probally colpied a Knights and YHM to make this.. What is so original about this ?
Ill give you a hint ! Nothing I recently (last week) sold my Samson rail for a Larue ! anohter satisfied customer !! |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 11:29:57 AM EDT
[#30]
Awesome! Will be sending an order your way soon! |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 1:09:02 PM EDT
[#31]
This is great! My only complaint about the YHM's was the fact they had that slot running down the middle of the rails, and my cheif complaint against the MI was it's weight.
Now we have a system that has the correct rails - yet weighs 0.3oz LIGHTER than the YHM. Kudos to Sampson! Now if they could drop it another ounce to get it to the KAC RIS weight it would be perfect. Till then I'll think of it as a RAS at half the cost. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 8:43:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Forest, You will love these rails. You are going to be able to mount a Tango Down VBG to the MRFS DI for only .8ozs than the MI rails alone! For those who are as concerned with weight as quality, the Samson rail is clearly a superior choice to MI or YHM. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 8:45:58 PM EDT
[#33]
Samson MRFS DI C rails now available!
LINK TO SAMSON DROP IN RAILS I have a few pairs coming in early next week. Order online now and we won't charge until we ship. [email protected] for questions |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 8:56:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Man, I should'a known...
If it's got 4+ pages to read, 3 1/2 is going to be bickering! Oh well... As one consumer who ALWAYS asks "how much does it weigh ", I'd gladly pay a little more $$$ for a 20% lighter product! In fact, I'm already wondering... Samson once offered to machine the middle out of the rails for me on an MRFS to reduce the weight. I wonder how much lighter THIS rail would be with that process performed? Or maybe some lightening holes under the top rail?Anyway, this may be EXACTLY what I needed to "rail-up" my Bushmaster lightweight. 
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Posted: 12/2/2005 3:25:46 PM EDT
[#35]
You got that right. IM sent |
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Posted: 12/3/2005 7:26:32 AM EDT
[#36]
Well I have to say I'm pretty disappointed that their street price isn't any cheaper then MSRP 
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Posted: 12/6/2005 12:47:36 PM EDT
[#37]
$199 is MAP. IM sent [email protected] for questions |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 1:18:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Can I get the IM, too?
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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:19:38 PM EDT
[#39]
IM on the way |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 8:28:37 PM EDT
[#40]
These handguards look great. Let me know how solid the fit is, and if there is any movement in these handguards after installed? I want something solid. I was originally looking at the MRFS-C 7" FF cause it bolted to the barrel nut to prevent movement, but am apprehensive about cutting off the delta ring.
4X4SC |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 4:11:33 PM EDT
[#41]
The fit is very tight. Samson added a few roll pins to the part that fits under the delta ring. These pins keep the handguard from rotating. Under normal use, you will not feel them move at all. They are not free float and they are not bolted on, but they are as rock solid as you can get without removing the deltaring for the MRFS C. Email me with any questions you might have [email protected] |
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Posted: 12/15/2005 3:50:47 PM EDT
[#42]
I have rather limited experience with railed forends. Have a KAC M4 RAS on one rifle, all the others are standard handguards. I'd like to put a set of non-FF rails on another rifle; can I get some comments on a comparison between the new Samson 2 piece non-FF rails and the KAC M4 RAS? What are the major differences between the two? Is the Samson any more solid (less movable) than the KAC? Not sure what I'm missing here - but it doesn't look like there's much of a difference between the KAC M4 RAS and the Samson. Why would a guy buy Samson's RAS when the KAC it tried and true? No flame intended at all...I'm trying to get some info here from someone who knows. Thanks. Any info would be a big help...starting from zero here.
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Posted: 12/15/2005 7:06:11 PM EDT
[#43]
I have yet to buy my first Samson`s product but I can tell the way they are recommended on AR15.com
they must be good products. Having said that I have two different sets of handguards one from Surefire on an M4 and the second set on a full size AR from MI. If I had seen the MI`s first both would be MI`s. They match the rail height on the upper were surefire does not. I would like to see more on the Samson thought they may be better, but I am happy with MI`s at their price points. Competion is always good for everyone that is why I appreciate that we have so many venders and new products to choose from. Thanks to Talon Arms for keeping us informed on Samson and Grant for the updated info on MI. I did not know they had the free floater out. Stickman the Surefires may be what you need they are thinner. |
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Posted: 1/18/2006 7:30:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Speaking of Samson, I see that they have come out with some new products.
I was browsing through the Samson site and saw that they released a spring loaded front flip up sight. Looks good! They are also listing the offset rail attachment. Good piece for mounting a light. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 5:28:59 AM EDT
[#45]
tag
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Posted: 1/22/2006 9:59:34 AM EDT
[#46]
"I cannot comment on the quality of MI rails as I have not seen them, but if MI thinks their rails are only worth $163, then I would guess they must be cutting cost somewhere."
They are obviously both cutting corners without locking mechanisms like the KAC RAS in a drop-in handguard replacement product. The fit can feel tight but I wouldn't trust anything not locked down for optics. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 3:37:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Green0, You are exactly right! Neither of these drop in systems are built for use with optics. Samson builds the MRFS free float rail system that locks down to the barrel nut. Those are safe to use for optics. The drop ins are a less expensive alternative for those who only need to mount a vertical grip, bipod or light. R TalonArms.com |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 5:46:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Thats the best part about it. All you ned are rail covers and youre set. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 9:45:25 PM EDT
[#49]
IM sent.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 11:08:52 AM EDT
[#50]
You may not even want the rail covers. Many of us run vertical grips these days and don't ever use rail covers at all. It is an added expense many would rather not have. Vegas, IM sent back If any needs a quote, send me an email. I will respond much quicker that way. R |
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