100% right on this. Both Vortex and PA do have a "high-end" level of optics.  Just goes to show, you get what you pay for. The high-end of both these lines is on par with anything from Trijicon or Leuopold or whoever.

Vortex particularly has a good rep with their higher end (Japanese) scopes. PA however... I'd be surprised if many people are ponying up the dough for their top tier stuff. After all it still says "primary arms" on the side which, let's face it, is synonymous with "budget".

There's a market for budget rds and riflescopes, clearly. But I stand by the original point that dollar for dollar my money is better spent on verifiably superior optics. That being said I am planning a budget AR pistol build so I'm struggling with the decision to spend as much on the optic (an MRO) as the rifle, or to just bite the bullet and go cheap (PA).

I agree. I never said the deals I got were common, nor did I say the deals I got were based on averages. The T1 was a 4moa model and had been painted/stripped. The buyer of the PRO had won it and had no need for it... he asked for $335, I offered $300, he took it. Deals come and go... A lot of it is just timing and luck because they go fast. Just last week I got a nib T2 off the EE for $590.

Find a rattle canned one, they're always cheaper.  

Agreed.  I would definitely not (at least not at this point) purchase a $1,000+ PA scope simply because it's PA.  They are synonymous with "budget" minded optics.

IMO, that is EXACTLY why they are starting to offer higher dollar stuff.  They WANT to be known as more than that.  The only way you shed that moniker is by diving in head first and offering up a more expensive quality product.  Eventually word will start getting out that these things are worth the asking price.  They can then go from there.  I think it's a really hard task to get out from under the "budget only" stigma, but this is really the only way they're going to do it.

Hell, who knows what'll happen, maybe I'll own a US manufactured PA optic someday.

I was through the first 10 pages of the EE used today and it hit me, why is practically every 3rd line item a T-1?  It seems like people are dumping them left and right.   This is not a rhetorical question, I really do wonder why that is????

So this has happened for you?  I'm not sure it's always that "easy" to get a T-1 in the high 400 dollar range.  And I thought someone was claiming you can get them new at that price point.  Not used off of the EE.  

The thing that makes me scratch my head is why do people have such a big problem with options?  So if you don't want a PA optic for 300 dollars, don't buy it.  But what is there to complain about?  They have optics at a lot of different price points and they're all less costly than an Aimpoint / MRO / Eotech.  Which of course the latter will get me scoffing for even mentioning it.  But they're still selling them.  And people are still selling them on the EE.   So, that's why I mentioned it.  

I mean it's like if you go to a restaurant and get snippy because they offer a meal that is something you don't typically like to eat and it's cheaper to boot.  How terrible of them.  

Could be a whole bunch of different reasons.  They're very common, so by default there's more of them to be sold.  People are selling them to move up into the new(ish) T2.  People bought a $500-$600 optic then finally realized that they didn't really need/couldn't really afford something that expensive.

I have a Burris Fast Fire III on my M&P carry gun.  Set and forget.  1st setting is auto brightness for 9.5 hours and huge battery life for $206 delivered.

I bought an H1 a few months ago and realized I didn't like the narrow dot field sold it just this weekend.  

They should have labelled this new RDS with the Platinum scopes. Or maybe PA Tactical if they're trying for the duty grade market.  I have no doubt this new RDS will be bitching but they need to differentiate from their other levels of products. But who knows maybe they already intend to and the guy in  The video didn't mention it. 

Good call on this. Whether PA likes it or not, their name is synonymous with low priced optics. They can invent all the tacticool reticles they want and import all the top tier Japanese glass they can, but as long as "Primary Arms" is scrawled on the side, folks are going to expect it to be inexpensive. It would be easier for them to differentiate the "good" stuff with a whole separate line than to try and "reinvent" their image to include high-end, top tier optics. Perhaps they should even introduce a whole new brand that's a "division" of PA featuring Pro-grade, Duty-grade or Tactical etc optics.

They're gonna miss you.

Not necessarily (although your way would most likely be easier).  There have been a few companies who have recently started bringing themselves away from the "as cheap as possible" stigma.

Sig Optics used to be nothing but bottom of the barrel chicom garbage.  They're now accepted by quite a few people as having quality stuff.

UTG also used to only be associated with cheap chicom air soft shit.  They're now a "go to" for some people in the cheap quality handguard realm (their US made PRO line).

There's been a few others as well.

I think the one reason PA is holding onto their name instead of starting another company is PA is associated with awesome, no BS customer service and support.  Even if your $60 chicom RDS took a shit, they'd take care of you.  It may just be easier to keep everything under the umbrella of PA instead of starting from scratch.

Not going to pay $300 for PA RDS.

I don't have any experience in the higher end variables and you may very well be correct, I surely wouldn't argue what I am saying as fact but it is still my opinion that the cheaper red dots would hold up better to abuse.  The real issue here is in a way it is apples to oranges so the price points don't apply.  Just because the variable is at over $1k and the red dot at under $200 doesn't mean it will hold up better.  I figure if you applied a $200 variable to a $1k over variable it would surely be better, but the red dot sight is so much simpler with a lot less moving parts.  I have seen so many videos of these cheap dots getting beat to hell without shifting zero and don't remember ever seeing anyone do the same to their variables.  It surely would have my interest if someone were to do the tests, even on a mid-range variable to see how it held up.  
Check out this link for a great torture test of the $169 PA dot -  YouTube Torture Test Primary Arms MD-ADS  Can start at 1:30 minute mark

That is probably the best torture test I could find on the PA dots and says quite a bit with just that video alone.  That poor thing is dragged behind a truck with everything on it scratched/beat to hell and the rear glass even cracked but the dot is still on and even holds zero.  I am not going to say for sure that a $1k plus variable optic can't handle that exact same treatment, but if I was putting money on it I would say no way would it still  hold zero after the same treatment but there just isn't any side by side comparisons.  Either way, even if a high end variable could hold up to that much abuse you still can't say that those PA dots are junk when they can do that.  The way I feel about them is this.. would I take one into combat out of the box?  Heck no because their QC isn't nowhere near as good as a higher end company and something simple could be wrong... but would I take one into combat that I have put through the paces and has held up?  Yup without a second thought.  And when comparing the Aimpoint T1 to the PA dot you are right, the Aimpoint would probably win most of the torture tests due to not having push buttons but rather the knob on the side.. I think that is their biggest weakness.  Even then it would take some extreme tests to get to that point, and it is likely they would both fail at the same point for most tests.  This new dot takes care of the button issue.

And a lot of you guys are comparing used prices to new ones from PA.. the PA dot can be had used quite often in the $120-140 range if you watch the EE.. that makes it a little more fair.  And I don't blame anyone for paying more for a PRO, or used Comp M2 but I would actually choose the PA over them in most cases even at the same price point because I like the microdots over the larger ones and it even has a better battery life at 50k hours compared to the 30k of the pro, and 10k for M2.  Those could be a little off depending on how they are rated.  It has a 2 MOA dot instead of the 4 of the M2 which I like.. and is also offered in the circle dot for those that prefer that over the regular red dot when the aimpoints aren't, as well as the new ACSS reticle which I am excited to try out.  One last thing.. it is hard to tell what the price of this new dot really will be or what it's quality is.  Will they still be made by Holosun or is it another manufacturer?  I for one would pay a little more to have the knob on the side vs the push buttons on top and under $300 could be anywhere.. that price could even be retail.  I wouldn't be surprised if they are closer to 200 then 300.

I do not consider the advanced micro dot duty ready or anywhere close.

Mine just died after just over a year on a safe queen. It actually had to go back twice. A friend bought 2 at the same time and one of them is dead. 1 for 3 does not bode well for me as a duty optic.

Fwiw, the design seems to be robust enough to take a beating, but the quality of the wiring was the issue. Their CS was excellent and took care of me, even out of warranty period.

Exaxctly right above. Is it possible to get a "combat-ready" PA red dot? No doubt yes. A broken clock is accurate twice a day!  But there is a reason companies like PA, Holosun and Vortex sell chicom RDS optics for under $200 AND offer great replacement guarantees and long warranties too. I guarantee it's NOT because they believe in their product so much. It's because the optic they sold you for around 200 bux only cost them a very small fraction of that amount and they can "afford" for you to have problems with it and and possibly need multiple replacements. Can you "afford" the risk? Honestly the answer for most is probably yes. We aren't fighting wars, we're at the range plinking!

Here's another point on this topic. What does anyone actually know about PA (or Holosun) manufacturing process? Anyone ever seen a photograph from "the factory"? I suspect not, and furthermore I suspect that WHERE these optics are actually made is likely a closely guarded secret. But google Aimpoint or Leupold or Trijicon manufacturing. The top tier companies are proud of their manufacturing process and will demonstrate transparency about their factories and details regarding materials and construction. There is a very logical and valid reason why a "top tier" optic costs what it costs.

The thing for me is if a red dot goes down in a middle of a firefight it isn't the end of the world like it would be with a variable power & no QD mount.  Even then I am sure you could make do at close ranges.  I would not ever take any red dot into combat without back up rear sights and my preferred fixed front sight.  Sight goes down and bad guy is within 30-50 feet or so then just look over your front sight and aim slghtly low and you will be fine.. if further away then take the extra split second of time to shift your head down slightly to the iron sights, flip up if necessary.  And if there is time take the other split second to throw your lever on your sight to get it completely out of the way.  

In all reality it just won't really make a difference except for you having to rely on Irons instead of the red dot that you might be used to - for me this is a non issue as I probably like Irons more then dots overall even though they aren't as quick for CQB shooting with the point being I am used to using them as well and others might not be.  I don't understand people making it out like you are defenseless if your optic fails.. it wouldn't even take any time to really compensate for it.  And I also don't think a lot of people realize that you don't always use your rear sight when you are shooting at a target that is close to you.. putting the front sight a little lower then where you want it to impact works great and soldiers have used it for many years in the past.  

But that still is bad to hear about a 2 in 3 failure at any rate.  That is on the very rare side of things, you definitely hear about failures more then you do with Aimpoints but the majority of them are out of the box failures.  Reading the reviews on the places that sell them have very very few negative reviews and I think it is fairly common for people that have negative experiences to post a review more often then those that have favorable ones.  On PA's website their dot has 233 5 stars, 21 4 stars, 2 3 stars and 3 1 stars.. figure the 4 and 5 are both positives that equals 254 positive, 2 neutral, and 3 bad ones.  Not the best of odds, but not the worst either.  If it was so we were screwed if our sights failed then I would never take one into combat... nor would I ever take an Aimpoint either for that matter.. but that is simply not the case.

Also, LPVs are continuing to gain popularity

You do know that PA has $1000+ japanese glass scopes, right?  Like really good glass?

Just because its $300 and a PA doesnt mean its not worth it.  

If PA did one like that, with an auto on with movement, circle dot, large FOV and glareless bombproof optic....it could very well meet or beat aimpoint.

Just because aimpoint is currently considered the best doesnt mean that they really are, or always will be.  Additonally, juat because the military buys something doesnt mean its the best.....MHS sig p320 comes to mind........

if you want cheap get one of these . i bought one just to test and try out.  it looks just like a PA or Bushnell and i would not be surprised if its from the same factory.   this kind of end user pricing can give you an idea of what company really pay for chinese optics . Some of these companies are just great marketers

So far its been a pretty good sight.  

https://www.amazon.com/FieldSport-Micro-Sight-Precision-Green/dp/B00Y3SZEJC/ref=sr_1_3?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1485464520&sr=1-3&keywords=red dot sight

So much typing in this thread, but the bottom line is this: a $300 red dot from PA is just silly.   It's the opposite of what PA is.

PA IS quality budget optics. If they can replicate 99% of Aimpoint reliability and quality with a $300 optic, is that not EXACTLY what they've wanted to do all along? It's about half the price of a new T1 - we still don't even have a price on the PA dot. The ADS was said to be "under $200" and comes in at $169.

I dunno.   I'm more aware of inflation than anybody, but $300 and "Budget red dot".  Just doesn't go together.      

I did buy a top of the line Holosun for $200, but it was defective.  

I would consider an Acog clone for $300.   If it was good.

Good points, but to be fair, Aimpoint is widely regarded as the best because the duty data, and empirical evidence from owners, shows that fact over time.

I think you may be just a tiny bit off on the "99%" figure there. PA is what it is. And one thing it IS NOT is Aimpoint quality.

I picked up my mro from my local dealer for $359 over Christmas......

For me, it doesn't matter. Until Aimpoint makes a micro with a circle dot reticle I won't buy their stuff. Luckily I'm not going to war so my Holosun works out.

I'm done with regular dots. There is zero reason Aimpoint shouldn't have a circle dot reticle at this point.

A micro with a circle dot would seem very cluttered in my mind.  Also, you'd lose battery life benefits.

Their microdots don't come close to being in the same category of Comp M2s. They are not a duty optic.

Buying something that has a likely chance of failing or even a 10% chance of failing for wiring issues or otherwise tells me they are not duty ready.

Duty to me means that your life might be on the line. I will not trust something that has a significant rate of failure no matter the warrenty.

I have carried them overseas and have seen with my own eyes 10 year old CCOs that have been overseas longer than most PA optics have been around with little to no defects, beat to shit, but still ticking.

That is why if the red dot budget is $250 or more, I will shop for a used Aimpoint.

It would be the same as my 503c. It looks fine to me.  YMMV. 50,000 hours no problem.  The new 515 does it even without solar.

It's just unfathomable that they don't do it IMO.

This topic isn't about "optics", I am not debating who makes a better magnified.
Strictly RED DOTS.  
Which  PA  and vortex are all MADE IN CHINA.

Next.

I browse the EE regularly. especially optics. I have been seeing the  ACO go for $300 regularly and the Comp M2 for $300  as well.They might not be a micro red dot but they are not chinese made and they are much more durable.  In fact the Comp M2 is a military design (and used by  US MIL)  and the ACO is using the same body.

For the price of $300 I would never consider a chinese red dot , period.  That kind of money is going straight into Aimpoint . or trijicon


The point of this topic is not to bash  Primary Arms. I think their products are great depending on cost to value.
the older $60 units and the MD-RBG/06/SP are cheap and good.

Mainly I am bringing up the fact that each new red dot is getting more expensive to the territory that I am looking elsewhere now as a  consumer.

Good for you. Keep telling yourself it matters in our war torn post apocalyptic land.

And just because you don't want to believe doesn't mean those little vastards arentbtough as hell. Like some of us have been trying o tell you. Might be be Aimpoint tough, but they are also at least less than half the price currently.

I'm seeing there are a lot of people here who are drinking the "PA Koolaide". I say good for you!  If it's smooth going down why not toss back a gallon or ten. As much as you may enjoy the flavor, it doesn't change the fact that $300 for a MADE IN CHINA PA red dot vs $300 for (or towards) an Aimpoint is NOT equal value for the dollar. Not even close.

I want to be clear that I'm not "bashing" PA. Their products serve a purpose and there's a huge market for them. I just don't like seeing their prices creep up toward Aimpoint and Trijicon territory when I know FOR A FACT what they're offering for that price is nowhere near the quality. And anyone who tries to argue that is either delusional or trying to justify their own purchase (IMO). Don't get your ego all wrapped up in the choices you make on gear!  

Just stop. Almost double the cost (or more) isnt "literally just a few dollars more". Thats idiotic. I dont own any pa optics, and i do own triji and aimpoint optics. For the civi who goes and shoots paper or tin cans (which is many on this forum) over decades, the budget optics with lifetime warranty woll be cheaper than the upper end optics, as many of the upper tier guys are STILL going to upgrade to the latest whiz bang bullshit. Look at what the market for early 90s aimpoints is.. very small. Stop being willfully stupid. If you just want to own the top stuff on the market? Good on ya, i support that. But stop pretending the mid and even lower tier stuff doesnt have a viable place in the market, and isnt the best choice for a lot of people.

So what if it ends up being $225ish? All he said was under $300 ... He didn't say it was $300 ...

I personally think these China made red dots are catching up .... They obviously have a ways to go but are gaining lots of ground ... That is great for us

Someone buy two of each RDS referenced in this thread and torture test them.

If you actually read (and most importantly comprehended) what I've said in this thread you would see that you have misinterpreted my statements. Also, you might consider using facts and/or logic, rather than emotion, in your replies. As it is, you have quoted a statement of mine (which I wholeheartedly back up) and referred to me as "idiotic" and "willfully stupid". I think we can do a better job of disagreeing RESPECTFULLY.

You can get used aimpoints in the $250-$300 price range. I would choose that over a $200 budget China made red dot.

For the record I have had 4 PA optics and had to send two back. I guess 50% defect/failure rate is ok with some of you guys  but not me.

I want my rifles to work on the range and in the field. So I choose aimpoint.

If your weapon is range only and you never plan on using it in the field or for home defense then go with a cheap Chinese red dot.

Yeah, because calling people delusional is really respectful.   And a few people have use the words and terms (I realize it's coming from both sides) "stop it" or "just stop".  What is this grade school?  

Anyways...     Personally, I like options, at different price points.  As some pointed out, maybe it's not about being the most tier 1 operator optic for all rifles or any of them.  Maybe a guy wants a decent red dot that he trusts for hunting or the range and his limit is 300 dollars.  And doesn't want it to weight 7-8 ounces.  Or whatever the reason.  It's good to have options.  

And like someone said, especially if you're running cowitness, the RDS working might just be icing on the cake.  Why does it have to be Aimpoint or nothing for any shooting scenario a guy might have?   Seems like half the guys that harp on Aimpoint being the only thing are sometimes the same guys whining about buying non American equipment.    I get that Aimpoints I'm assuming are made to a higher quality standard than the PA advanced micro, but as far as sending your money somewhere besides the US, you're doing that either way.  Unless there is an aimpoint factory in the US.  

Personally I like Eotechs.  I'd rather have one of those over my PRO.  As long as it worked.  Which I admit Aimpoint is the better choice.  

Anyways.....  I keep saying the same thing and most of us are repeating at this point.  So..  to each his own.  But from where I'm sitting you're up on a horse claiming how respectful other people should be but might not be holding yourself to the same standard.  Possibly.

I see it like this pertaining to red dots. eventually a roof will appear above their heads that will cap their price in the market.
That lead horse, little does it know, has a carrot hanging from it's tail. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there is viable competition in the red dot market. Just like the rest of the optics industry.

Competition is good.

They have AKOU did a similar test Vickers did to the DD gun with a T1.

The PA ADS passed with flying colors. Dragged. Dropped. Shot. Blown up.

The guys bashing PA or saying even at more than half the price it still isn't worth it simple don't know what they are talking about.

I will admit the chance of getting a dud is higher than an Aimpoint but a properly functioning PA ADS is an incredible dot period. If you add in the fact that its$159 that makes it an amazing deal.  

Now if the $300 dot is even more robust and has the lifetime warranty.......yeah......I can see $300.

Boom

AKOU gun and PA ADS test

Like I said the "cheap" red dots are catching up. Shouldn't be shocking to anyone who understands technology. Anyone who thinks the PA dS isn't nearly duty grade got a dud or is ignorant.

So being fair and comparing a new $300 PA dot to a new $600 Aimpoint, and the PA is somewhat as close to very close as the Aimpoint in robustness isn't equal value?

I disagree. Look at the video I posted. If the new $300 holds up even better than the current $159 version?!  Pfffff. Forget it. It's an amazing deal and value.

I have had two T1s fail and had to be sent back (This was out of probably 15 units)..... I will say that the failure rate is obviously lower in the Aimpoints (or at least ARF tells me so) .... I have 3 PA ADS and haven't had any failures ..... I still choose the Aimpoints on my go to rifles

Like others have mentioned these China made RDS are seriously catching up and its a GREAT thing for the consumer

More power to all the apparent Primary Arms fanboys who've chimed in (can't believe they exist). I want to point out that in all the statements I've posted here I haven't said anything DISPARAGING about PA red dot scopes. They seem to make a good product for the money. Wait.....let me rephrase that...they seem to pay a mysterious Chinese factory who know one (outside of PA) knows anything about, to produce a good product for the money. Mind you, not the money THEY spend, the money YOU spend... I suspect if any of us knew PA's actual cost on these scopes we'd all collectively soil ourselves! So for the record, do PA scopes do essentially the same thing Aimpoint and other scopes do? YEP. Do they offer a product that is in demand and fulfills a niche in the market for a reasonable price? YEP. Are their customers generally happy with the products they sell and the service they provide? YEP. So what is the problem if I state the KNOWN FACT that "Trijicon and Aimpoint red dots are way better quality and therefore it's my opinion that MY money is better spent on those vs. the other"?  Because that seems to have "ruffled some feathers". :)

Did I say something rude to a specific member?  Please (from where you're sitting) demonstrate where I was disrespectful to someone in particular.

Also, for the record, I've never been on a horse.

People aren't trying to reassure themselves over what they dropped for an expensive sight, they're trying to explain to you that the only reason that they could afford an expensive sight is because they didn't spend a few years buying a series of cheap red dots.

Less expensive sights have their place (I'm reading this thread for a reason, you know).   What they don't yet have is a solid track record.   It wasn't that long ago that you basically had Aimpoints and wal-mart blister pack scopes and very little in-between.

5 years from now... then we might have a meaningful discussion on some of these.

I'm unconvinced that a $300 micro-ish red dot is a better buy than a used Aimpoint if you're not specifically needing a smaller sight for a fun gun, but we'll know soon enough.