Will there be a FailZero type coating option?

Don't know what to tell you Frank, they approached us and had the USPTO paperwork. I have no dog in this fight. Just using the part.

Yes there will be.

oh boy.....im getting the popcorn....who wants some, im selling it for $1 a bag??

LOL, I'm always up for some popcorn....as I said not looking for an issue. I think everyone knows all the companies in the firearms industry out sources to and buys parts from one another. There are a few parts houses that supply almost all of us, we all use the same investment casters, MIM houses, machine shops, mixed with our own in house capabilities either to supplement, augment or whatever is needed. We'll of course double check with Hogan as responsible corporate citizens, but that's where we got that part from.

As long as you keep this enhance BCG under 200 you've most certainly got a winner.

Thanks! We'll do the best to keep the cost down.

Looks very good.

Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each?

They have a great reputation locally.

I believe so, and they are in the Industry Partner section. Don't want to drag it out but I did make one error earlier. Hogan doesn't own the patent, a gentleman who rents space from Hogan does. I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes. I'm sure there was a relationship there at some point, but again, more than I have a need or even right to know really. If one wanted to know more you could either ask them or pull the addresses for each on Google and pull up the satellite picture and draw your own conclusions. POF clearly has a fine and popular product and the folks at Hogan have been very good to work with, so we have no complaints or issues with either party.

I will point out that we are doing a full cam pin rework on the enhanced model so regardless of the top the bottom will be unique to our bolt.

man this is getting good, i love the idea bout this bolt, but this topic is really getting good

subscribed!

whose the real roller cam pin?

Dear Frank,

      If you'd like, you can fax the contract detailing those rights between POF and Mr. Peter Giefing, the owner of record on Patent Number: 7930968 and we will review it. Our fax number is 888-228-2195.

Sincerely,

Mike

Yeah, especially when they respond to the initial comment and ignore the earlier response where I already said we believe its a remote and rare possibility which is why we aren't too concerned if we have to extend those lugs further to ensure feeding, if that proves to be an issue in testing. However, the key with facts is always to consider all of them, such as what was the starting temp of the parts? Where some of our boys are, a black rifle in the sun, I wouldn't be shocked to hear if the barrel was ambient temp close to the lower temp listed above, plus they'd shed heat slowly so successive constant firing could cause a ratcheting thermal result. Again, we've never seen it either, but when a military consultant and contractor says its an issue he's aware of we aren't going to argue as its clearly true if the lug doesn't touch the primer at all it can't cause a cook off, but again, we don't feel its a major issue either, but worth pointing out as a possible benefit in a presentation for a military contract and something for them to test. Again, we clearly stated this was an early sneak peak of what we are running in military trials, not a sales piece as we aren't even selling the item at this time, nor would we until its been tested thoroughly by us, we see the military's feedback, have 3rd party testing, plus feedback from some high end users (training centers).

http://www.google.com/patents?id=mJ6XAQAAEBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=7930968&hl=en&ei=SdJGTrSVCaPZiAKyl6H8AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA

you make an excellent point, the sun can really heat up metal fast, and it does slow down cooling speed

Thank you, and to POF's credit their design is far better at dissipating heat than a standard military M4 so if they were testing their own rifle/bolt combination you've got a vast quality and heat management difference there as well that must be considered.

If you offer just the bolt for sale, I would definitely be interested in buying one when they come out.

so full of fail, this design has been tried in the past by companies with much longer pedigrees and experience than sharps and has proven unreliable in full-auto applications.  good luck to them if they have re-invented the wheel!

can you tell use some examples or have any links or proof?

well it was a nice try and i really liked the looks of this thing, but i think POF has you

Frank,

      You were the one that said you had an exclusive contract. I was asking you to fax it to us in the above where I also posted the patent number, and tfod was nice enough to post the google link so everyone could see. No one is in doubt that he was working with you when he patented it, just as it isn't in question that Hogan use to build your product under variance, so the fact your rifle was used in the patent document dating back to when you were all working together doesn't imply ownership, but as the patent owner is renting space from Hogan currently I'm still questioning exclusivity on it. Again, just show us your contract with the patent owner and we are happy to drop the roller pin from the offering as it was an added on to our offering and not the focus. And again, as we haven't sold any, nor are we currently offering any for sale this is easy for us to do at this point if necessary, as for us the focus is still the bolt head.

thanks,

Mike

Don't worry, this is only over that roller cam pin. The bolt isn't in question

We too would like any specific references as we have yet to see them. Again, for feeding on the AR its only the bottom two lugs that we can re-extend if required. I'd like to see the designs that were out there that failed.

What I would not trust is the "riveted on" roller.   Sorry, just me.

Why not do something like this where the main body of the cam pin goes in through the top of the roller to keep it from coming loose?



Then again, the POF looks like it has enough metal on the roller to keep it far from ever being the weakest link?

I like it. Just got word today that there is another one out there in the patenting process, and I believe it addresses this issue. Personally, I'd like to see a ball bearing on the section of the pin that contacts the channel in the carrier might be most beneficial. Don't know if it would be durable enough. Our focus right now is on the enhanced bolt which doesn't have a requirement of using the same cam pin setup. We are looking at one that could be put in what's out there, the other is a bit more radical. Might go in both directions. Again, early stages, so testing will lead the direction. And in put like yours is always welcome.

Frank,

        I can appreciate your reason for posting. All I'm asking at this point is for some documentation from POF showing that you guys have the exclusivity or an assignment on this per your assertions. If not we've got a prior business agreement that I have to honor. I know Hogan isn't a dealer for POF. I didn't say dealer, I said supplier. It's not a big deal as everyone in this business subcontracts something to someone. We both know this is a very small community of suppliers despite the different brands. All I'm asking is if you have paperwork for your claim that POF is the sole party allowed to produce under the patent that you send me something to back up that assertion so we can act accordingly and properly.

Mike

fax: 888-228-2195

I'm confused.

Your not the only one This has turned into the pit.

Same, looks like were not the only ones who derail good threads

Sorry for the confusion folks. We've tried to keep it as civilized as possible from our end.

Basically all of the POF posts are over their annoyance that we have the roller cam pin on this BCG, and their contention that they have the exclusive right to manufacture, use and sell the roller cam pin, which was patented by Mr. Peter C. Giefing, an independent 3rd party. A claim we've invited them to submit paperwork on and prove out. However, it has nothing to do with the key part, the newly contoured bolt. Quite frankly, when we get the bolt head completely tested out it will be available for sale as its own product. So from that stand point, the arguing over the roller cam pin is a complete distraction over what we hope and believe is a very important development that is currently under way.

As to why POF and Hogan rifles look very similar, or why the 3rd party who owns the patent used POF's rifle for the artwork for his patent app in 2009 and now rents space from Hogan, or why if you Google Earth their addresses POF and Hogan are in the two halves of the same building, or why Hogan was liquidating POF receivers, or any of the other POF & Hogan related questions, I'm not going to address those here and strongly suggest folks go ask those questions in the POF & Hogan forums under the industry section as this is a Sharps thread and not the appropriate place for POF or Hogan issues to be raised. As is more than clear here, there is some definite bad blood there which unfortunately got spilled all over this thread. Again, we've done our best to minimize it, but to little success.

Back on the bolt head, the main point of this whole thread prior to the ugliness, you'll see some shooting tests coming up very soon, with video. We have a US Senator coming to our Wyoming facility at the end of the week to view it, our new rifle, and to test it out. We'll have some photos of the visit up next week, provided the visit occurs as scheduled. Either way we'll have some video of the testing up next week. Hopefully that will let us get back to the important item at hand and get the information flow on track.

Again, you all have our apologies for the confusion.

Thw best part of that post is that youll be selling the bolt individually.... Now it is a def buy for me

I still think pof could have handled the situation with a little more dignity. Instead of tossing accusations on an interweb forum trying to discredit yall, they should have called yall or gotten in contact with yall and handled it more privately. What do i know

Glad to hear on the buy. Our job, as we see it, is to make it as easy for you to buy what you want from us that we make and make our innovations as easy to adopt as possible to as many people as possible. Hence we'll have the minimally changed Mil Spec version, and one or two versions of the Enhanced. And we realize as cool as the full blown ultra mega enhanced version with all the innovation the would and the kung fu grip is, most will look and go, wow, thats cool $XXX bucks? Hmmm, I think I'll buy the $XX Mil Spec one, as we know the reality is 90% of the board (and the wider market) isn't walking around with a full auto rifle dumping a 1000 rounds through it before breakfast everyday, and the as cool as the high end model might be, for a lot of folks its a serious concern that if they spend $XXX if they'll have enough for true necessities in this economy.

Thanks for hanging in there on this thread

Im beginning to wonder if theres not some personal bad blood at POF

Not only are they mad about their rollerpin now theyre bringning in new companies

Yikes, lots going on in this thread.



I'll try to keep it to the bolt design and ignore most of the POF/Hogan/LWRCi/whatever stuff going on in here.



This looks very interesting, Sharps. I'm curious how it will operate. Does removing the portion of the front of the lugs there cause any problems? Does it at all reduce the strength of the bolt?

what a shame this turned into this.

Imagine a triangular gusset it's carrying the load on the two perpendicular sided under pressure.  The outside corner is wasted material for the most part but costs more to machine it away unless it was forged angular to start with.  The extra material plays little role in the strength of the bolt designs.

I don't we could have said it better ourselves htex. So the answer is no, we aren't seeing any strength reduction