I took the defensive carbine course at SIG this past spring and was taught aggressive tactics on using the AR mostly at close distances.The instructor, a former Delta operator with 29 combat missions under his belt recommended the AR for home defense over a handgun and shotgun.It's what he uses as a home protection weapon.His recommended load was Glasers.It's not exactly a one stop shot, but he didn't teach us to stop attackers with one shot either.It's safer than heavy weight bullets in apartments.I currently use M183 in my house but will me switching to a frangible ammo when I move to an apartment next month.As far as what the police would say reguarding the use of a evil black rifle to save your life, it's what I was trained with and it's what I feel confident in using to stop an attacker or attackers in my home.

Our bedroom is upstairs.  We have a central alarm system.

I keep a .45acp 1911 on my bed side table with a flash light and cell phone.  I feel comfortable with this for commom breakin's.

But....if I saw multipal bg's down stairs running around.  I have a Rem 870 with 000 buck magnimum in the other upstairs room.

If there are dropping on the staircase and still others are jumping over them to come up the stairs, my wife will have our AR15.

If she runs out of ammo and they are still coming up the stairs well..................I hope I wake up from my bad dream and can go back to sleep thinking about Pamala Anderson giving me a back rub.  (While my wife cleans the AR15). [8D]

How the Heck did you train your wife you clean your AR15?

Let me in on the secret please!

About 2 months ago as a matter of fact.

I still remember the incident in MD about 4-5 years ago - a father (a docotor IIRC) was killed his daughters were raped then killed.


A good handgun is a nice tool and it serves in many circumstances.  But 'best' defensive weapon?

A good point - that is why most of us keep hearing protection with our firearm (FYI electronic earmuffs are the BEST).  But remember if you think its going to hurt you - how about the guy on the receing end the sound will be much worse 'down range'.


That explains the prevalance of M4s, MP5s, and 14" shotguns for entry teams....


Been there - done that.  I'm faster with my carbine.

BTW I hope you're not kidding yourself that IDPA or IPSC is a good simulation of a fight.

A pistol is so i'm armed while i get my shotgun out.

Glock 23 with M3 and a Benelli M1S90 for me.

I agree 100%.  I would not use any rifle for home protecion due to over penetration and the overall velocity.

I keep my Glock 26 in the nightstand.  other than my department issued Beretta 9mm in my gun belt, it's the only loaded gun in the house.  I don't worry about a home invasion much at all.  I'm not paranoid enough to keep a loaded shotgun next to my bed.  If anyone was to break in while we are home, they'd have to get past 2 german shepherds before they got any further.

For the average person, the buckshot is a good, low velocity, choice.  Think of overall wall penetration while comparing a shotgun, pistol, and a rifle.  I wouldn't shoot a rifle in my house period.

I saw a ballistic test last year.  They shot an AK47, other rifles, 9mm, .45, and shotgun rounds at various items in the test.  One of those items was a house.  The interior walls didn't even stop the 9mm, and the AK was just ridiculous.

I'm all for home protection, but common sense is needed in the equation sometime.  Overkill can be a tremendous liability.  Those hot AR rounds can go thru walls, richochet off things and god knows where they'll end up.  

Most of the time when your in a high stress situation you loose our fine motor skills and you loose your sense of hearing.  Unless you are a) highly trained in cqb or other high stress shooting of b) been in that situation before your heart rate is going to be thru the roof and your going to have a bad case of tunnel vision.  

The best bet for anyone that dosent have a or b would be the buckshot due to the pattern and increased oppertunity for a hit.

Its harder to miss with a shotgun.

Depending on the invasion:

If it was one or two individuals breaking down a door (where I had plenty of distance), and my family was safely BEHIND me, I would reach for my Remington Marine Magnum.

If there appeared to be more than two people, I'd then grab my AR-15, and use one of my self-defense magazines, which go Moly, Ballistic, Moly.

Finally, if someone were a lot closer to me than I'd like them to be, or if my family were not safely behind me (meaning i might have to pop someone in the head), I'd grab my Sig .45.  If they are that close, I might also need something small like a pistol in the event of a close combat situation, or a struggle.

I generally load Cor-Bon +P 230-Gr JHP's in my .45, but my backup clips contain Ranger +P SXT's (The new Black Talons).  I came to the conclusion that in a circumstance with one intruder, the DA would probably have a sh*t fit with the ranger rounds, but if I ever needed more than one clip, the occasion to use them would be more than justified.

A few other things to consider:

- How good are you with a pistol or a rifle at 3AM after being awoken from your sleep?
- Do you really think you'll need optics inside the house?
- Will you have a security system to warn you the minute the breach actually occurs, or will they be in the house by the time you're awoken?
- How is your house configured?  What are the risks that if you missed shooting from your bedroom, it could fly across the hall to a child's room, etc.

You newbies need to READ the Ammo FAQ.

The .223 cartridge with MOST bullets penetrates far LESS than either handgun rounds or buckshot (that is any buckshot that is worth a damn in a fight- only #1 and up penetrate enough to guarentee reaching vital organs). There are rounds like Wolf, Barnaul, GP90, most makers versions of SS109 that do overpenetrate-but you wouldn't want to use these in combat anyways since they dont fragment in flesh either and you might as well be shooting them with a .22WMR.

Shotguns do not spread enough to guarentee hitting without aiming just like a carbine- fortunately so since otherwise the pellets would spray so much you would hit members of your own family.

Shotguns with shot also do not penetrate Kevlar, which is only going to become cheeper and more common as time passes. Nor will any handgun. But .223 from anything will. Yes you can do a failure drill with a 12ga. But failure drills are not going to solve the problem, they are just a drill to [i]attempt[/i] to save your ass when your inadaquate for the situation weapon has failed. If there are multiple suspects- and a "home invasion" is generally defined as having 3 or more suspects though rarely more than 5- while you are doing your failure drill on ONE guy his homies are plugging your ass full of holes.

Read the data here then contemplate how it would work in YOUR situation. Go also to [url]www.tacticalforums.com[/url] and read their info. Ask questions. Then come back and post.

Learn the pattern of your shotgun, and you'll be able to fire it in a way to avoid hitting a family member...although I would much prefer a precision firearm at this point.  I wonder how difficult it would be to mount a pistol holster on the buttstock of a 12 gauge.  

Yeah that's real smart:

- Useless against body armor
- Could empty your clip if there were 3 or 4 individuals
- Try explaining to the jury why you're justified putting 8 shots in a person instead of 2 or 3.

The term "Safety Bullet" is a contradiction in terms.  They teach in the police academy that if you're going to shoot someone, you shoot to kill and leave only one witness (you).

That is erronious. They and the Magsafes generally shred soft body armor because of their high speed.

Why they are considered useless is that they make nasty [i]looking[/i] "rat hole" wounds in skin and muscle but rarely penetrate enough to reach vital organs or major blood vessels in the torso. If you are shooting from the side and hit someone in the arm, for example, the fragnable rounds wont even make it through the arm into the chest, much less deep enough in the chest to destroy the lungs or heart.

Dont take my word for it
[url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000021.html[/url]

Actually - I've had a RUSSIAN 12 gauge side-by-side shotgun next to the bed the last couple of years.

I apologize for my extended comments on this thread, but I feel the need to respond.

1)  I believe that MOST people give no consideration whatsoever to the use of hearing protection in an armed confrontation.  Electronic hearing protection is not "the BEST", it is the only option.  The same earmuffs that will protect your hearing from muzzle blast will also prevent you from hearing ambient noise (like footsteps on carpeting);  EHP actually amplifies these sounds.  My Pro-Ears occupy the space on my night stand next to my pistol.

2)  A SWAT team can overcome disadvantages in individual speed with personel; of which you will not have the benefit.  If I have the option of defending my life with a team of armed men with body armor and comms, I will choose that option, and they can all have AR's.

3) If your faster with your carbine than with a pistol at CQB distances, then you must really suck with a pistol.

4)  IPSC, and especially IDPA are not "simulations", they are preparation.  Without the proper training and practice, what you "think" you can do will not materialize.  I love watching people who brag about how great they are with a firearm panic when the buzzer goes off.  If I had a nickel for every badass that forget to take the gun off safe, stared blankly at a jammed firearm, or fumbled around with basic gun handling skills, I could have retired years ago.  I hope your not "kidding yourself" about your own abilities.

Was this the guy who taught the class?

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com

Don't remember where I ran across this!

okay,

i don't live in a great neighborhood so it's not quiet which means i hear bumps in the night all the time and i regularly have to sweep my house to figure out what's going on. i can't call the police everytime. i keep my 9mm sigma on my bedstand. i grab it first and stick it in my shorts and opt for a katana on the way out of my bedroom door.

Sword Ballistics:
1. no over penetration.
2. no innocent bystanders.
3. anyone who tries to take it from you regrets it.
4. built in silencer (guarantees i have plenty of time to sweep the house while the first encountered bg bleeds out, i call the police/paramedics (not the neighbors)when 'threat' has 'expired'.)
5. never once accidentally beheaded my drunken roommates or their friends on the rare occasions that could have been disaterous with a firearm.
6. unlimited ammo.
7. 9mm is loaded with 5 glasers and 12 hollow points ready to tackle anything bigger more numerous.



cons: no fun toys for it and too cheap.

thieves need their hands to take things being a big fairly ugly guy i'm not targetted for too many sexually motivated crimes. i'm willing to bet my life anyone i encounter in my house will have had to use 2 hands to get in or carry something out and i can further disarm (un-arm) them effectively in the extremely close quarters afforded by my little house with a sword.

OK, I've read most of these threads and alot of people are making good points. If I had my AR close, I think that would make a great weapon (but my AR is locked away). I cant really keep my .45 laying around next to my bed because I have a 18 month old who gets into eveything. So my home defence choice is my SPAS 12 up atop of my closet. I think 12 ga. is the best choice because its just point and click. Besides if he gets a look at that SPAS aiming down on him he'll probably kill himself tring to get out of dodge.

Now this looks like really good commentary -

" They teach in the police academy that if you're going to shoot someone, you shoot to kill and leave only one witness (you). "

Wouldn't you love to be the plaintiffs Attorney in a wrongful death suit against an agency )or individual taught by him) in a marginal shoot and you get to call this guy for a witness.  KA-CHING

Well, I can tell you first hand, that is not true.  We are trained to aim for the BIGGEST target. Which happens to be the torso that also happens to contain vital organs.  There is no "shoot to kill", it is shoot until the threat has stopped and maximum effect.  Aiming for this area gives us the highest probability of hitting the target.  One thing to remember is, we own every round that leaves our weapons.  Personally, I'd much rather put all of my shots into the bad guy that miss and hit someone or something else.  MAJOR liability issues.
Nearly all of the shootings in my agnecy this year were non-fatal for the bad guy, only a few were fatal.  Even police officers miss in very stressful situations.  Well, some even miss all the time, but that is a different thread.

Not very 'diplomatic', but an accurate assement.

I've spend much more time around rifles than I have with handguns.  Also I've noticed I lose my handgun skills much quicker without practice.

Since we don't realistically have CCW in Maryland I really don't need to be a good handgunner - I only need my rifle and it serves as my primary home defensive implement.


I agree if you go there with the 'proper' mindest and don't plan on competing.  Use of cover properly and taking your time are 'realistic'(which goes against 'the game'); running through the course to get the 'best time' would be disasterous.

The problem is most 'games' the ref's aren't good judges of 'sound tactical descisions' nor are they really there to critique your choices.  Best place to have that done is at formal instruction - places like PFDC, Blackwater, OPS, Gunsite, and Thunder Ranch with qualified and experienced trainers.

BTW People who only train with 'buzzers' are setting themselves with a problem.  You are now conditioning for a reponse only after the 'buzzer'.  The instructor at the class I took last month was really good about chaning the repsonse condition - it could be a buzzer, or it could be a vocal command 'Fire'/'Threat' etc.  FYI I'd think the guy who invents a timer with the ability to randomly select different 'start signals' would have a winner of a product.


No I train for 1 thing (and it ain't an IDPA trophy).  

The ONLY good use for a handgun, is to fight your way back to your carbine!!

Hello. My name is David, and this is my first reply to these excellent forums. This thread struck me very close to home. In Nov of 2001 two men knocked on my door at 3:00 PM. I was asleep since I work nights. I have a Colt AR-15 pre-ban, UZI pre-ban, and several pistols. Not knowing who this was, I got on my shorts and stuck my S&W SW40F with corbon 135gr's in my pocket. I thought I knew one of the guys as a neighbor a couple of doors down, after looking out, so I was stupid and cracked the door to ask what did he want? That is when the door came open and 6'7" 290 lbs came at me with pepper spray in my eyes and entire front. I am 5'7" and 175. I was thrown into my house, as the man kept coming at me. I was able to duck down, rack a round, turn and shoot. I felt him back off, and leveled off at him. I was almost blind, but lucky for me he was wearing a black t shirt, that looks just like what I shoot at for practice. I shot two more times center mass, and turned to hit the next guy, who ran like a monkey out the door as fast as he could.
Now: #1 the sound made no difference at all, didn't hear a thing. Too pumped on adrenaline.
#2 I killed the guy one round ripped his aorta from his heart.
#3 The SO and the DA were awesome in their support of me.
#4 I got my gun back after the trial of the guy who ran away. He got 25 years for the murder of his buddy. (You know death in the act of a felony). http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=1&From=list&SessionID=1024434286
#5 It only took 3 rounds to do the job. I stopped firing on him when he fell.
I have lived this thread, and I can tell you that the pistol was the best choice for me. In my home. And Corbon ammo rocks. That my 2cents.
Thanks for reading, and for all of you sharing your knowledge. I have learned alot.

Spooge......Welcome to the boards! glad your with us!

I think trying to use bump fire in that situation would be the most foolish thing possible.  It does not always work and in an adrenalin rush, etc. circumstance you would most likely fail.  and then of course there is the other major aspect of weapon retention and the cast that aiming is nil in a hip bump fire situation.  Maybe for a Follywood movie thats all!

Been reading the board for some time now and just thought I would give my two cents on this heated issue. I don't really think it matters what kind of firearm you are going to use agiant the person(s) that might be trying to cause you harm. What I belive is the whole key to this issue is not what you might shot them with but if you will shot them at all. You have to be able to look at them and fire knowing full well that you are intending to end another humans life with that shot. Alot of people are talking about the legal end of after shooting a person, also think about the mental end of it. You will have to be able to know frist that it was justifed shooting and  be able to live with he tought that you killed that person. Because I know if I am in the postion where I have to use my firearm on someone be it a pistol, rifle or shotgun, I am not going to try and just wound him, I am putting rounds where I know he will be stop.  if a person can not do it, they should come up with some other plan of dealing with someone breaking in.  Like the saying goes "Best offense is a good defense". I know that you can not plan for something like this since most times it will happen at night or when you are least ready. But you have to always be aware of what is going on around, maybe there is a someone hanging around or a out of place car, you just have to watch for the warning signs. then you might be ready.
i've also seen on here alot of people posting about what kind of firearm they would use, if you read in the NRA American rifleman, there are stories of people who had to defend themselves. Almost all of them have been done with Pistols. From little old ladies with .25 auto to store owners with .45 ACP. I've found, and I'm not an expert, you will use what you are most comfortable with. If that is a rifle,pistol or shotgun you are going to be using that.  Hopefully if you have to confront a person, that the criminal,most of them are not brave, will just back down and leave. I know in a dark hall wall if you rack that 870's action, the person will have second thoughts, just hope you are not the person having the second thought. But I know in my own shoes I will want a weapon that will have the stopping power, which will be whatever I have at hand.
That is my 2 cents for what they are worth.

Spooge5150 - I appreciate your real-world post in regards to this thread.

I think you meant to say 'The Best Defense is a good Offense'


90% of the time just showing you have ANY firearm will stop the attack before you have to fire a round.

However I don't think I'll be getting rid of my expensive firearms for some cheap .25 cal pistols.  I worry about the 2-3% that won't stop even if fired upon - I'll go for a weapon that produces the largest hole possible while maintaining an edge of safety for innocents.  A firearm is just a tool - but I'd rather have the best tool possible.

Thanks forest for the correction sometimes I'm dyslexic.
A firearm is a tool, but you also need the right tool for the job. Not saying get rid of your experience firearms, I'm just saying people will use what they are most comfortable with. You might be able to handle a 45 alright but someone who isn't comfortable with it. You don't want to be sticking Grandma with a 8 inch 44 Mag to defend herself with.  That is just my thoughts.