Quoted: Good to see the Doc posting here.

+1, we need more like him.

Yes we do, but it is threads like this that make folks like Dr. Roberts and Pat Rogers run away from here and back to a more structured website where folks are required to do their homework before espousing their views.  If you were in their position, you'd likely do the same.

Yet, I still think that there needs to be a place where ignorance is a bit more tolerated, so that the good information casts a wider net.  But that idea has begun to wear on me (and Brou and Tatja) as well.  Fewer and fewer people are willing to put in the work, and insist on everything being spoon-fed to them, sometimes thrice over, before they'll even *consider* that their position might be flawed.

More and more, I'm thinking that if the Ammo forum were a separate board, I'd require that people check a box that they'd read the Oracle, or even take a short quiz on it, before being allowed to post a new topic.  If Goatboy wasn't so busy...

-Troy

Quoted: If you were in their position, you'd likely do the same.

In my own little world I am and I am considering it.

If this thread goes anymore off-topic, I WILL LOCK IT UNTIL DOCGKR HAS AN UPDATE.

This is an important subject to some of us and I don't want to see it turned into a pissing match by a select few individuals.

I will not ask again.

Excelletn point Brou!

People need to remember if they want to talk about something not pertanant to the thread topic, they can:

1) Find an ongoing thread on the subject they wish to discuss or...

2) Start a new thread dedicated to the subject they wish to discuss.

But of course number two comes with some greater responsibility.

I really do hope this thread gets back on point...sadly this is just one more reason to have a crackdown throughout the site.

Quoted: Yes we do, but it is threads like this that make folks like Dr. Roberts and Pat Rogers run away from here and back to a more structured website where folks are required to do their homework before espousing their views.  If you were in their position, you'd likely do the same. Yet, I still think that there needs to be a place where ignorance is a bit more tolerated, so that the good information casts a wider net.  But that idea has begun to wear on me (and Brou and Tatja) as well.  Fewer and fewer people are willing to put in the work, and insist on everything being spoon-fed to them, sometimes thrice over, before they'll even *consider* that their position might be flawed. More and more, I'm thinking that if the Ammo forum were a separate board, I'd require that people check a box that they'd read the Oracle, or even take a short quiz on it, before being allowed to post a new topic.  If Goatboy wasn't so busy... -Troy

I need to echo several things.

Firstly, that actually doing ammo work and posting it here is intensely rewarding in the near term (we get lots of thank you notes) and intensely disappointing in the long term.

Eventually, it seems fewer and fewer people are reading facts, the same ignorance is creeping back in and our work has started all over again.  Just about 30 minutes ago I almost convinved myself that due to a thread in here I should clarify that we RECOMMEND M193 over M855.  How can this not be clear today?

*sigh*

People like Doc and others flee this forum because the "clue quotient" is quite poor.  Perhaps we DO need an entrance exam.

I think their timed quiz score should be displayed at the top of every post.

Quoted: I don't claim to know anything about Lemas bullets, but I've seen what one can do to a very large piece of meat, it reduces it to its base elements of water, protein and red stuff.  Do regular softpoints or fragmenting bullets do this?  I honestly do not know, that isn't a sarcastic question. If the guy says it only works when it enters living flesh, then the test parameters mentioned seem perfect, shooting them into a live hogs leg.

I am going to start BEGGING you to stop posting until you've been lurking for about 60 days.

He needs to learn to use the search function.

Quoted: Quoted: Who is DocGKR? Is he Dr. Flacker? There was not a bio in the user info. Thanks, Ants He is Dr. Gary K. Roberts. He is not Dr. Martin L. Fackler.

IIRC, GKR is a protogee of Dr. Fackler.

Quoted: Firstly, that actually doing ammo work and posting it here is intensely rewarding in the near term (we get lots of thank you notes) and intensely disappointing in the long term. Eventually, it seems fewer and fewer people are reading facts, the same ignorance is creeping back in and our work has started all over again.

it's like that in all the tech forums. same questions over and over, often asked by the same people.

Quoted: Quoted: Having now read some of the background on the LeMas ‘controversy’ on the tactical forums I have concluded this outfit is a complete fake. They are the ammunition equivalent of the TV infomercials where for “just $19.99 +S&H you get 21st century blended metal super technology smart bullets guaranteed to shoot thru any known obstacle and still vaporize the badguy! Place your order in the next ten minutes and not only do you get the blended metal super technology smart bullets but we’ll double the bone crunching trauma and send the MAGNUM blended metal rounds at no additional cost and throw in a free shammy!” Personally I would have ignored this company after I had examined the first 45 auto bullet. To Doc KGRs credit he is willing to go the extra mile and examine another product from them. Considering that some hapless ill informed buyer may put his life on the line with this “product” a valid airing of the facts is a good thing. Rich V Hey Rich, You are missing the point here if you think the published results of Mr. Roberts BMT APLP elemental analysis above will address or explain the operational capabilities and characteristics for the BMT APLP military and law enforcement ammunition. Folks seem to think that the data Mr. Roberts posted above, which reference the BMT CQB .45acp bullet somehow refutes the fact that the ammunition provides the operational requirements as advertised.  The BMT Armor Piercing Limited Penetration .45acp CQB military and law enforcement bullet is the only handgun ammunition in the world when fired from current duty weapon platforms that provides the ability to defeat both hard and soft armor without living tissue center of mass over penetration. Additionally all of the BMT CQB handgun ammunition provides the operational capability to effectively facilitate both tactical and emergency door lock breeching from duty handgun weapons. I have also stated that the BMT CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from dedicated handgun weapon platforms, provides primary weapon mission capability form a secondary weapon platform within the CQB environment. That means for example that the subgun BMT CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from a  Glock-21 with 6.5 inch KKM barrel delivers the 85 grain projectile at 2475 fps and provides more hard and soft armor capability than any 10.5 inch or shorter 5.56 carbine using the 75 grain Hornady TAP ammunition. The resulting comparative live tissue destruction is much greater from the BMT armor piercing CQB .45acp ammunition and additionally provides limited lethal over penetration center of mass probability. The BMT CQB .45acp 85 grain subgun armor piercing limited penetration bullet design, when fired from a dedicated 10.5 inch subgun weapon platform delivers in excess of 2600 fps and will match or exceed the operational capabilities of many conventional ammunition bullet designs when fired from the M-4 carbines within the CQB environment. Its pretty amazing that from the thousands of rounds utilized in operational environments around the world, not a single individual has come forward to say the BMT APLP ammunition did not perform as advertised in real armor and real living tissue to include the 5.56 BMT Armor Piercing Limited Penetration ammunition that Mr. Roberts pronounced lacking sufficient penetration unless the target was the size of a small fury squirrel after impacting ballistic gelatin. It seems the continued real world evaluations in armor and living tissue for the BMT APLP ammunition refute the validity of his professional assessments. If Mr. Roberts or folks here at this forum think that his review and posting for spectrum analysis will explain the real world operational capabilities for the BMT APLP military and law enforcement ammunition he will be mistaken again. The many operational BMT APLP ammunition designs will continue to walk forward and walk the walk within the current operational environments around the world.   Stan Bulmer Le Mas Ltd.

Do you have any links that cover the real world performance that you said the ammo is getting?

Quoted: Since financial motivation has been brought up I would be interested to know what financial motivation certain moderators of this forum may have in allowing and encouraging this behavior.

Like most questions, this one is answered in the Oracle, and you're barking up the wrong tree, a sign, perhaps, of your desperation.

Q. You people are a bunch of (Fackler worshippers/idiots/jello fans/armchair theorists/mindless fools). How in the world can you expect me to believe (insert Ammo-Oracle answer here)? You have all lost touch with the working man shooter with your lofty theories and ivory tower "science." I know for a fact that my super special homemade round will tear up badguys because it tears up potroast like there is no tomorrow. Why should I believe anything on here?

As for gel companies, I don't have any shares, stock, interest or other financial link to any gel company or any firm that profits from ballistic testing.  I don't know of any such links with respect to the other moderators either but I will let them speak themselves.

As for the many errors and gaps in knowledge you display in the rest of your post here, I don't have 90 minutes to correct all your mistakes.

Quoted:  This will never be settled as far as I can see.  One side says test gelatin other says warm tissue.  I guess the military or other users will just have to decide what is what by actual use.  Either a great marketing gimmick, or a great leap forward in bullet tech?

Occam's Razor will give you your answer.

I found this amazing feature.  Google has a "BMTish" translator.  Since I find language interesting, I thought I would go about testing it.  The result are promising.  Here's what BMT's latest post translates to:

Quoted: Hey Rich,

"Yo moron."

You are missing the point here if you think the published results of Mr. Roberts BMT APLP elemental analysis above will address or explain the operational capabilities and characteristics for the BMT APLP military and law enforcement ammunition.

"Please ignore the man behind the curtain."

Folks seem to think that the data Mr. Roberts posted above, which reference the BMT CQB .45acp bullet somehow refutes the fact that the ammunition provides the operational requirements as advertised.

"Folks seem to think that science means something."

The BMT Armor Piercing Limited Penetration .45acp CQB military and law enforcement bullet is the only handgun ammunition in the world when fired from current duty weapon platforms that provides the ability to defeat both hard and soft armor without living tissue center of mass over penetration. Additionally all of the BMT CQB handgun ammunition provides the operational capability to effectively facilitate both tactical and emergency door lock breeching from duty handgun weapons.

"The BMT Deli Slicer Special .45acp CQB butcher and deli counter clerk bullet is the only handgun ammunition in the world when fired from guns that provides the ability to slice ham and turkey without fragmentation or impact on deli meat taste. Additionally all of the BMT Deli line provides the operational capability to effectively facilitate both tactical and emergency meat package opening."

I have also stated that the BMT CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from dedicated handgun weapon platforms, provides primary weapon mission capability form a secondary weapon platform within the CQB environment.

"I have also stated that the BMT CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from a gun, provides bullets for guns."

That means for example that the subgun BMT CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from a  Glock-21 with 6.5 inch KKM barrel delivers the 85 grain projectile at 2475 fps and provides more hard and soft armor capability than any 10.5 inch or shorter 5.56 carbine using the 75 grain Hornady TAP ammunition. The resulting comparative live tissue destruction is much greater from the BMT armor piercing CQB .45acp ammunition and additionally provides limited lethal over penetration center of mass probability.

"That means for example that the subgun BMT Deli line CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from a  Glock-21 with 6.5 inch KKM barrel delivers the exceedingly light 85 grain projectile at 2475 fps and provides more hard and soft armor capability than any totally uselessly short SBR carbine (which is all I can compare it to and still make it look worth a cent) using the 75 grain Hornady TAP ammunition. The resulting comparative live tissue destruction is much greater from the BMT Deli Slicer CQB .45acp ammunition and additionally provides highly limited penetration.  I know this because we tested it on live human tissue.  Don't tell anyone though.  And, no, don't ask."

The BMT CQB .45acp 85 grain subgun armor piercing limited penetration bullet design, when fired from a dedicated 10.5 inch subgun weapon platform delivers in excess of 2600 fps and will match or exceed the operational capabilities of many conventional ammunition bullet designs when fired from the M-4 carbines within the CQB environment.

"The BMT CQB .45acp 85 grain Deli Slicer, when fired from a gun delivers in excess of 2600 fps (2601 fps to be exact) and will match or exceed the operational capabilities of Winchester White Box when fired from the M-4 carbines with entirely too short barrels within the CQB environment.  Because our Warlock is on strike though, outside of the CQB environment, however, the bullet will not function at all since the spell we cast on it only works when the target is inside of 20 feet and the target tissue temperature is 98.6 degrees.  This may result in reduced performance in targets experiencing hypothermia and is therefore not recommended for arctic or high-seas use."

Its pretty amazing that from the thousands of rounds utilized in operational environments around the world, not a single individual has come forward to say the BMT APLP ammunition did not perform as advertised in real armor and real living tissue to include the 5.56 BMT Armor Piercing Limited Penetration ammunition that Mr. Roberts pronounced lacking sufficient penetration unless the target was the size of a small fury squirrel after impacting ballistic gelatin. It seems the continued real world evaluations in armor and living tissue for the BMT APLP ammunition refute the validity of his professional assessments. If Mr. Roberts or folks here at this forum think that his review and posting for spectrum analysis will explain the real world operational capabilities for the BMT APLP military and law enforcement ammunition he will be mistaken again. The many operational BMT APLP ammunition designs will continue to walk forward and walk the walk within the current operational environments around the world.

"It's pretty amazing that from the 30 rounds utilized in Deli departments around the world and the thousands we've shot in the lab, not a single store manager has come forward to say the BMT Deli Slice ammunition did not perform as advertised in deli meat and now I will reinvent the English language and hang three independent clauses off the end of this sentence without punctuation of any kind the chair is against the wall john has a long moustache there is sauerkraut in my lederhosen.  It seems the continued real world evaluations in ham and turkey for the BMT Deli Slicer ammunition refute the validity of Dr. Roberts' professional assessments.  We all know Dr. Roberts has NEVER worked in a deli.  Since we ignore anyone who complains that the round doesn't work, we have shown that science is useless in the face of marketing.  If Mr. Roberts or folks here at this forum think that his review and posting for spectrum analysis (which I fear will reveal that my bullets are made of lead, but only because of the spectrum cloaking material we salted our samples with) will explain the real world operational capabilities for the BMT Deli Slicer ammunition he will be mistaken again. Science will never penetrate the secrets of our Warlock magic.  The many operational BMT APLP ammunition designs will continue to walk forward and walk the walk within the current operational environments around the world.  Deli counters everywhere will reduce their costs dramatically and lunchmeat will be as cheap as you have ever seen it."

Stan Bulmer
Le Mas Ltd. (Feeding the schoolchildren of the world lunchmeat at 2601 fps... cheaper.)

Quoted: I don't know of any such links with respect to the other moderators either but I will let them speak themselves.

I own many shares of Globo Gel Incorporated, I am their paid spokesman.

Quoted: I found this amazing feature.  Google has a "BMTish" translator.  Since I find language interesting, I thought I would go about testing it.  The result are promising.  Here's what BMT's latest post translates to: Quoted: Hey Rich, "Yo moron." You are missing the point here if you think the published results of Mr. Roberts BMT APLP elemental analysis above will address or explain the operational capabilities and characteristics for the BMT APLP military and law enforcement ammunition. "Please ignore the man behind the curtain." Folks seem to think that the data Mr. Roberts posted above, which reference the BMT CQB .45acp bullet somehow refutes the fact that the ammunition provides the operational requirements as advertised. "Folks seem to think that science means something." The BMT Armor Piercing Limited Penetration .45acp CQB military and law enforcement bullet is the only handgun ammunition in the world when fired from current duty weapon platforms that provides the ability to defeat both hard and soft armor without living tissue center of mass over penetration. Additionally all of the BMT CQB handgun ammunition provides the operational capability to effectively facilitate both tactical and emergency door lock breeching from duty handgun weapons. "The BMT Deli Slicer Special .45acp CQB butcher and deli counter clerk bullet is the only handgun ammunition in the world when fired from guns that provides the ability to slice ham and turkey without fragmentation or impact on deli meat taste. Additionally all of the BMT Deli line provides the operational capability to effectively facilitate both tactical and emergency meat package opening." I have also stated that the BMT CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from dedicated handgun weapon platforms, provides primary weapon mission capability form a secondary weapon platform within the CQB environment. "I have also stated that the BMT CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from a gun, provides bullets for guns." That means for example that the subgun BMT CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from a  Glock-21 with 6.5 inch KKM barrel delivers the 85 grain projectile at 2475 fps and provides more hard and soft armor capability than any 10.5 inch or shorter 5.56 carbine using the 75 grain Hornady TAP ammunition. The resulting comparative live tissue destruction is much greater from the BMT armor piercing CQB .45acp ammunition and additionally provides limited lethal over penetration center of mass probability. "That means for example that the subgun BMT Deli line CQB .45acp ammunition when fired from a  Glock-21 with 6.5 inch KKM barrel delivers the exceedingly light 85 grain projectile at 2475 fps and provides more hard and soft armor capability than any totally uselessly short SBR carbine (which is all I can compare it to and still make it look worth a cent) using the 75 grain Hornady TAP ammunition. The resulting comparative live tissue destruction is much greater from the BMT Deli Slicer CQB .45acp ammunition and additionally provides highly limited penetration.  I know this because we tested it on live human tissue.  Don't tell anyone though.  And, no, don't ask." The BMT CQB .45acp 85 grain subgun armor piercing limited penetration bullet design, when fired from a dedicated 10.5 inch subgun weapon platform delivers in excess of 2600 fps and will match or exceed the operational capabilities of many conventional ammunition bullet designs when fired from the M-4 carbines within the CQB environment. "The BMT CQB .45acp 85 grain Deli Slicer, when fired from a gun delivers in excess of 2600 fps (2601 fps to be exact) and will match or exceed the operational capabilities of Winchester White Box when fired from the M-4 carbines with entirely too short barrels within the CQB environment.  Because our Warlock is on strike though, outside of the CQB environment, however, the bullet will not function at all since the spell we cast on it only works when the target is inside of 20 feet and the target tissue temperature is 98.6 degrees.  This may result in reduced performance in targets experiencing hypothermia and is therefore not recommended for arctic or high-seas use." Its pretty amazing that from the thousands of rounds utilized in operational environments around the world, not a single individual has come forward to say the BMT APLP ammunition did not perform as advertised in real armor and real living tissue to include the 5.56 BMT Armor Piercing Limited Penetration ammunition that Mr. Roberts pronounced lacking sufficient penetration unless the target was the size of a small fury squirrel after impacting ballistic gelatin. It seems the continued real world evaluations in armor and living tissue for the BMT APLP ammunition refute the validity of his professional assessments. If Mr. Roberts or folks here at this forum think that his review and posting for spectrum analysis will explain the real world operational capabilities for the BMT APLP military and law enforcement ammunition he will be mistaken again. The many operational BMT APLP ammunition designs will continue to walk forward and walk the walk within the current operational environments around the world. "It's pretty amazing that from the 30 rounds utilized in Deli departments around the world and the thousands we've shot in the lab, not a single store manager has come forward to say the BMT Deli Slice ammunition did not perform as advertised in deli meat and now I will reinvent the English language and hang three independent clauses off the end of this sentence without punctuation of any kind the chair is against the wall john has a long moustache there is sauerkraut in my lederhosen.  It seems the continued real world evaluations in ham and turkey for the BMT Deli Slicer ammunition refute the validity of Dr. Roberts' professional assessments.  We all know Dr. Roberts has NEVER worked in a deli.  Since we ignore anyone who complains that the round doesn't work, we have shown that science is useless in the face of marketing.  If Mr. Roberts or folks here at this forum think that his review and posting for spectrum analysis (which I fear will reveal that my bullets are made of lead, but only because of the spectrum cloaking material we salted our samples with) will explain the real world operational capabilities for the BMT Deli Slicer ammunition he will be mistaken again. Science will never penetrate the secrets of our Warlock magic.  The many operational BMT APLP ammunition designs will continue to walk forward and walk the walk within the current operational environments around the world.  Deli counters everywhere will reduce their costs dramatically and lunchmeat will be as cheap as you have ever seen it." Stan Bulmer Le Mas Ltd. (Feeding the schoolchildren of the world lunchmeat at 2601 fps... cheaper.)

Thanks, I needed that to help uderstand what the hell he was talking about.