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Link Posted: 9/11/2023 5:07:11 PM EST
[#1]
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Go to a 3-Gun match and watch guys work a bay stage with a LPVO. That’s literally the entire point of the optic.
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All that proves is that you are absolutely terrible with the holographic, or a ninja with the LVPO, or some combination of the two.


Go to a 3-Gun match and watch guys work a bay stage with a LPVO. That’s literally the entire point of the optic.


The matches I've been to, the LPVO is ok at the short stages. Dudes with an RDS smoke them. Then things flip at the 200+ yard stages. The real difference is during force on force with moving targets and so forth.
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 5:07:56 PM EST
[#2]
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The FOV and simplicity of RDS and ACOG are what make them so superior to LPVO for shorter range infantry combat fire and maneuver things. If you are trying to do DM things at intermediate and longer ranges, or hunting, an LPVO gets you closer to that.
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I understand the concept. I’m just not convinced.
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 5:09:27 PM EST
[#3]
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I understand the concept. I’m just not convinced.
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The FOV and simplicity of RDS and ACOG are what make them so superior to LPVO for shorter range infantry combat fire and maneuver things. If you are trying to do DM things at intermediate and longer ranges, or hunting, an LPVO gets you closer to that.

I understand the concept. I’m just not convinced.

Don't be. There's a reason the military dumped the acog/rds thing. It's a great setup but there's far better for that application now
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 5:23:11 PM EST
[#4]
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And a fucking iotv lolol
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IBA for me. Same bulky bullshit.
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 5:25:57 PM EST
[#5]
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IBA for me. Same bulky bullshit.
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And a fucking iotv lolol


IBA for me. Same bulky bullshit.

Oh man! Glad things have changed.
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 5:27:10 PM EST
[#6]
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Don't be. There's a reason the military dumped the acog/rds thing. It's a great setup but there's far better for that application now
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The FOV and simplicity of RDS and ACOG are what make them so superior to LPVO for shorter range infantry combat fire and maneuver things. If you are trying to do DM things at intermediate and longer ranges, or hunting, an LPVO gets you closer to that.

I understand the concept. I’m just not convinced.

Don't be. There's a reason the military dumped the acog/rds thing. It's a great setup but there's far better for that application now


More bullshit from this guy. So there's no more RDS or ACOGs on M-4s anywhere in the military? I saw such a setup last week.

They are issuing more optic options, for the same reason they are starting to issue full size caliber rifles; because they want to shoot shit further away. Everything I've seen suggests they are keeping the RDS/M4 for when they need them (urban/close up). There's no plan to change the weapons/optics for POGs either. And despite what some larpers want to believe, the stuff you are more likely to do as a civilian during HD or crisis, is a lot more like a POG, than a Delta assaulter or scout team or whatever.

I'll just stick with my shorty AR and RDS for home defense. You can keep your 12lbs 6.8X51 and LPVO wonder weapon. I know, it's my funeral.
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 5:52:13 PM EST
[#7]
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More bullshit from this guy. So there's no more RDS or ACOGs on M-4s anywhere in the military? I saw such a setup last week.

They are issuing more optic options, for the same reason they are starting to issue full size caliber rifles; because they want to shoot shit further away. Everything I've seen suggests they are keeping the RDS/M4 for when they need them (urban/close up). There's no plan to change the weapons/optics for POGs either. And despite what some larpers want to believe, the stuff you are more likely to do as a civilian during HD or crisis, is a lot more like a POG, than a Delta assaulter or scout team or whatever.

I'll just stick with my shorty AR and RDS for home defense. You can keep your 12lbs 6.8X51 and LPVO wonder weapon. I know, it's my funeral.
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The FOV and simplicity of RDS and ACOG are what make them so superior to LPVO for shorter range infantry combat fire and maneuver things. If you are trying to do DM things at intermediate and longer ranges, or hunting, an LPVO gets you closer to that.

I understand the concept. I’m just not convinced.

Don't be. There's a reason the military dumped the acog/rds thing. It's a great setup but there's far better for that application now


More bullshit from this guy. So there's no more RDS or ACOGs on M-4s anywhere in the military? I saw such a setup last week.

They are issuing more optic options, for the same reason they are starting to issue full size caliber rifles; because they want to shoot shit further away. Everything I've seen suggests they are keeping the RDS/M4 for when they need them (urban/close up). There's no plan to change the weapons/optics for POGs either. And despite what some larpers want to believe, the stuff you are more likely to do as a civilian during HD or crisis, is a lot more like a POG, than a Delta assaulter or scout team or whatever.

I'll just stick with my shorty AR and RDS for home defense. You can keep your 12lbs 6.8X51 and LPVO wonder weapon. I know, it's my funeral.

*sigh* lol boots these days
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 5:54:28 PM EST
[#8]
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The matches I've been to, the LPVO is ok at the short stages. Dudes with an RDS smoke them. Then things flip at the 200+ yard stages. The real difference is during force on force with moving targets and so forth.
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On short range stages, the stage times are usually very close for good shooters, usually only showing separation by a few seconds. It's actually very difficult to make up 5 seconds on someone on a short stage.
But once you start shooting out to mid and long range, it's easier to pick up or give up 5 seconds since the differences between skill level is more pronounced.
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 6:25:39 PM EST
[#9]
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On short range stages, the stage times are usually very close for good shooters, usually only showing separation by a few seconds. It's actually very difficult to make up 5 seconds on someone on a short stage.
But once you start shooting out to mid and long range, it's easier to pick up or give up 5 seconds since the differences between skill level is more pronounced.
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The matches I've been to, the LPVO is ok at the short stages. Dudes with an RDS smoke them. Then things flip at the 200+ yard stages. The real difference is during force on force with moving targets and so forth.


On short range stages, the stage times are usually very close for good shooters, usually only showing separation by a few seconds. It's actually very difficult to make up 5 seconds on someone on a short stage.
But once you start shooting out to mid and long range, it's easier to pick up or give up 5 seconds since the differences between skill level is more pronounced.


I agree.

I'm sorta of the opinion that LPVO got so big, because of the tactical games shooting and some of the limitations of it. It can be pretty tough to quickly hit an 8" plate at 2-300 yards with an RDS. It's not so tough with a good lpvo. So depending on how you set up your tactical rifle game, an LPVO can be a huge advantage on the timer for the longer stages. In my limited experience this is common.

The matches I've been to don't have many moving targets. And none at 25+ yards. And no fleeting targets. These are things that RDS shine at, quick acquisition and engagement. But games around here just usually have a bunch of smaller targets, that don't move, at mid range, which is what LPVO does real well. Or a bay stage with non moving paper targets similar to uspsa. LPVO is ok at that, a little slower than RDS, as you've described.

So the end result is a bunch of people who think the lpvo is better overall, when really it's just better at one specific task that's scores higher in the game. I have been to a competition where the RDS guys did real well, and surprise surprise, the guy who designed it, was shooting an RDS. It had a bunch of shirt stages and a few longer stages, but nothing too bad for the RDS guys.
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 6:55:54 PM EST
[#10]
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The matches I've been to don't have many moving targets. And none at 25+ yards. And no fleeting targets. These are things that RDS shine at, quick acquisition and engagement. But games around here just usually have a bunch of smaller targets, that don't move, at mid range, which is what LPVO does real well. Or a bay stage with non moving paper targets similar to uspsa. LPVO is ok at that, a little slower than RDS, as you've described.

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Your club doesn't use swinger or disappearing targets?  


FWIW I haven't found that optics choice makes much difference on moving vs static targets.
Link Posted: 9/11/2023 7:04:18 PM EST
[#11]
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Your club doesn't use swinger or disappearing targets?  
https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/src/Primary/528/528007.jpg

FWIW I haven't found that optics choice makes much difference on moving vs static targets.
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The matches I've been to don't have many moving targets. And none at 25+ yards. And no fleeting targets. These are things that RDS shine at, quick acquisition and engagement. But games around here just usually have a bunch of smaller targets, that don't move, at mid range, which is what LPVO does real well. Or a bay stage with non moving paper targets similar to uspsa. LPVO is ok at that, a little slower than RDS, as you've described.



Your club doesn't use swinger or disappearing targets?  
https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/src/Primary/528/528007.jpg

FWIW I haven't found that optics choice makes much difference on moving vs static targets.


Very few. And always 15 yards or closer. Those are pretty lame in my opinion. The movement is not even close to normal human movement.

The pop up and moving targets the military uses are much better. The drop turns are ok as a fleeting target.



Link Posted: 9/12/2023 9:54:57 AM EST
[#12]
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The matches I've been to, the LPVO is ok at the short stages. Dudes with an RDS smoke them. Then things flip at the 200+ yard stages. The real difference is during force on force with moving targets and so forth.
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You need to go to more matches then.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 9:56:42 AM EST
[#13]
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On short range stages, the stage times are usually very close for good shooters, usually only showing separation by a few seconds. It's actually very difficult to make up 5 seconds on someone on a short stage.
But once you start shooting out to mid and long range, it's easier to pick up or give up 5 seconds since the differences between skill level is more pronounced.
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My difference between LPVO and RDS in a bay stage is less than 5% typically.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 5:25:34 PM EST
[#14]
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My difference between LPVO and RDS in a bay stage is less than 5% typically.
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On short range stages, the stage times are usually very close for good shooters, usually only showing separation by a few seconds. It's actually very difficult to make up 5 seconds on someone on a short stage.
But once you start shooting out to mid and long range, it's easier to pick up or give up 5 seconds since the differences between skill level is more pronounced.


My difference between LPVO and RDS in a bay stage is less than 5% typically.


I'd say closer to 10%, but it seems our observations aren't too far apart. It is hard to say precisely, because not a lot of people shoot the same course of fire with both optic setups. And in a game, using static targets, it's not that big of a deal. And it's easily made up on the longer stages. That's why a lot of good competitors use lpvo.

In the real world, that 5-10% difference is amplified significantly, when facing moving targets and when using cover in a more realistic force on force training or real life fight. Actual CQB is much more complex and challenging, with much higher stakes, than competition. Winning and losing can be decided in fractions of seconds. Even 5-10% is actually pretty meaningful. In force on force, the guy who is 5-10% faster with a weapon presentation is going to win, a lot.

This whole shitshow part of the thread blossomed, because a guy was saying they are "the same." And we are in agreement, they are not the same, not even in the best of circumstances.

This guy is slightly annoying, but the first 15 minutes of this seem like a pretty fair assessment.

LPVO Versus Red Dot + Magnifier
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 5:26:54 PM EST
[#15]
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I'd say closer to 10%, but it seems our observations aren't too far apart. It is hard to say precisely, because not a lot of people shoot the same course of fire with both optic setups. And in a game, using static targets, it's not that big of a deal. And it's easily made up on the longer stages. That's why a lot of good competitors use lpvo.

In the real world, that 5-10% difference is amplified significantly, when facing moving targets and when using cover in a more realistic force on force training or real life fight. Actual CQB is much more complex and challenging, with much higher stakes, than competition. Winning and losing can be decided in fractions of seconds. Even 5-10% is actually pretty meaningful. In force on force, the guy who is 5-10% faster with a weapon presentation is going to win, a lot.

This whole shitshow part of the thread blossomed, because a guy was saying they are "the same." And we are in agreement, they are not the same, not even in the best of circumstances.
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They are the same because the 5-10% isn't made up by optic choice, but by proper tactical execution. If you had any real experience you'd understand that simple concept

the reason you perceive rds/holo's to be faster is because they are easier and have a smaller sustainment curve which shows in force on force with your unit because sadly, the military has a horrible record of providing conventional forces good training. Because of this reason, poor fundamentals show more when using something like an lpvo which isn't a knock against you or anybody else. It's 100% the fault of the whole system.

listen, don't listen, it really doesn't matter. The facts are the facts and competent individuals are given something with a good 1x what it actually is does not matter.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 5:51:33 PM EST
[#16]
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They are the same because the 5-10% isn't made up by optic choice, but by proper tactical execution. If you had any real experience you'd understand that simple concept
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I'd say closer to 10%, but it seems our observations aren't too far apart. It is hard to say precisely, because not a lot of people shoot the same course of fire with both optic setups. And in a game, using static targets, it's not that big of a deal. And it's easily made up on the longer stages. That's why a lot of good competitors use lpvo.

In the real world, that 5-10% difference is amplified significantly, when facing moving targets and when using cover in a more realistic force on force training or real life fight. Actual CQB is much more complex and challenging, with much higher stakes, than competition. Winning and losing can be decided in fractions of seconds. Even 5-10% is actually pretty meaningful. In force on force, the guy who is 5-10% faster with a weapon presentation is going to win, a lot.

This whole shitshow part of the thread blossomed, because a guy was saying they are "the same." And we are in agreement, they are not the same, not even in the best of circumstances.

They are the same because the 5-10% isn't made up by optic choice, but by proper tactical execution. If you had any real experience you'd understand that simple concept


How is slower target engagement and slower transitions between targets a part of a better or proper tactical execution?

How does your tactical execution overcome physical realities that limit the position of the rifle relative to your body and cover?

The RDS is an advantage over an LPVO for CQB.  Pretending it's not is ignorant. Pretending that seemingly small advantages don't matter in that environment, is ignorant. Things happen very fast, and the margin of error is very small to start with.

Can someone who is better trained, or otherwise executes better for whatever reason, beat someone with better equipment? Sure. But this thread isn't about that. It's also not about stacking up and clearing a room with a team. It's civilian personal defense. The differences are usually pretty substantial.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 6:01:39 PM EST
[#17]
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the reason you perceive rds/holo's to be faster is because they are easier and have a smaller sustainment curve which shows in force on force with your unit because sadly, the military has a horrible record of providing conventional forces good training. Because of this reason, poor fundamentals show more when using something like an lpvo which isn't a knock against you or anybody else. It's 100% the fault of the whole system.

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So you agree that it's worse equipment for people who are allegedly not trained enough. These people who train somewhat regularly, and do it as part of their profession. And also that they can't figure out how to train properly with it. And your shitty advice to civilians who are extremely likely to get less and/or worse training is that it's "the same."

Even if your claims aren't bullshit (which they are). If the equipment requires 7000% more training time or proficiency, or ninja level training to be "the same"... It's absolutely not the same or "just as good"
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 6:04:05 PM EST
[#18]
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How is slower target engagement and slower transitions between targets a part of a better or proper tactical execution?

How does your tactical execution overcome physical realities that limit the position of the rifle relative to your body and cover?

The RDS is an advantage over an LPVO for CQB.  Pretending it's not is ignorant. Pretending that seemingly small advantages don't matter in that environment, is ignorant. Things happen very fast, and the margin of error is very small to start with.

Can someone who is better trained, or otherwise executes better for whatever reason, beat someone with better equipment? Sure. But this thread isn't about that. It's also not about stacking up and clearing a room with a team. It's civilian personal defense. The differences are usually pretty substantial.
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I'd say closer to 10%, but it seems our observations aren't too far apart. It is hard to say precisely, because not a lot of people shoot the same course of fire with both optic setups. And in a game, using static targets, it's not that big of a deal. And it's easily made up on the longer stages. That's why a lot of good competitors use lpvo.

In the real world, that 5-10% difference is amplified significantly, when facing moving targets and when using cover in a more realistic force on force training or real life fight. Actual CQB is much more complex and challenging, with much higher stakes, than competition. Winning and losing can be decided in fractions of seconds. Even 5-10% is actually pretty meaningful. In force on force, the guy who is 5-10% faster with a weapon presentation is going to win, a lot.

This whole shitshow part of the thread blossomed, because a guy was saying they are "the same." And we are in agreement, they are not the same, not even in the best of circumstances.

They are the same because the 5-10% isn't made up by optic choice, but by proper tactical execution. If you had any real experience you'd understand that simple concept


How is slower target engagement and slower transitions between targets a part of a better or proper tactical execution?

How does your tactical execution overcome physical realities that limit the position of the rifle relative to your body and cover?

The RDS is an advantage over an LPVO for CQB.  Pretending it's not is ignorant. Pretending that seemingly small advantages don't matter in that environment, is ignorant. Things happen very fast, and the margin of error is very small to start with.

Can someone who is better trained, or otherwise executes better for whatever reason, beat someone with better equipment? Sure. But this thread isn't about that. It's also not about stacking up and clearing a room with a team. It's civilian personal defense. The differences are usually pretty substantial.


I would like to start with this-I'm sorry I came off rude the other night-I was at the animal hospital with my dog who's dying of heart failure and took it out on you.


Because there isn't an actual difference in splits once you start getting off the flat range. It's not something I can easily quantify over a forum. I wish we were closer because so I could demonstrate this stuff but it's the truth. Those hundreths and thousandths of seconds do not exist on the clock in cqb for those that solid fundamentals-the times come out exactly the same. If you have different times then YOU are the weakpoint in the system. Another possibility is you just do not jive with whatever reticle you are using. I've seen dudes that can't do shit with an eotech because they find the donut too distracting. Real talk.

another thing that i've noticed become more prominent: dudes that started out with irons or an acog have a much much easier time using an lpvo for cqb stuff than those who started with eotechs and aimpoints.

I wish I could get with you in real life as im sure we could learn a thing or two from each other. I said this earlier, but the complete lack of training in the entire .mil complex saddens me. Only a select few are lucky enough to get consistent, solid training and the rest are left to fend for themselves
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 6:05:20 PM EST
[#19]
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So you agree that it's worse equipment for people who are allegedly not trained enough. These people who train somewhat regularly, and do it as part of their profession. And also that they can't figure out how to train properly with it. And your shitty advice to civilians who are extremely likely to get less and/or worse training is that it's "the same."

Even if your claims aren't bullshit (which they are). If the equipment requires 7000% more training time or proficiency, or ninja level training to be "the same"... It's absolutely not the same or "just as good"
View Quote

I do. nowhere did I say that it was as easy to use. but it IS as fast. you have to weigh if sustaining that training is worth the increase in capabilities and its not for everyone

the reality is that civilians have access to much much better firearms training than the .mil does. The .mil has much better resources for tactical training.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 7:30:46 PM EST
[#20]
Hey dude, very sorry to hear about your dog. Fuck guns and optics, in comparison. I hope he has a good outcome.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 7:31:49 PM EST
[#21]
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Hey dude, very sorry to hear about your dog. Fuck guns and optics, in comparison. I hope he has a good outcome.
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Thanks my dude. If it keeps progressing at this rate he has a month at best.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 7:44:25 PM EST
[#22]
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I would like to start with this-I'm sorry I came off rude the other night-I was at the animal hospital with my dog who's dying of heart failure and took it out on you.


Because there isn't an actual difference in splits once you start getting off the flat range. It's not something I can easily quantify over a forum. I wish we were closer because so I could demonstrate this stuff but it's the truth. Those hundreths and thousandths of seconds do not exist on the clock in cqb for those that solid fundamentals-the times come out exactly the same. If you have different times then YOU are the weakpoint in the system. Another possibility is you just do not jive with whatever reticle you are using. I've seen dudes that can't do shit with an eotech because they find the donut too distracting. Real talk.

another thing that i've noticed become more prominent: dudes that started out with irons or an acog have a much much easier time using an lpvo for cqb stuff than those who started with eotechs and aimpoints.

I wish I could get with you in real life as im sure we could learn a thing or two from each other. I said this earlier, but the complete lack of training in the entire .mil complex saddens me. Only a select few are lucky enough to get consistent, solid training and the rest are left to fend for themselves
View Quote


I hope your dog gets better. No apology necessary, I'm not going to get offended in an online optic opinion debate. I doubt you are either. But I still want to apologize for the snarky tone I've taken with you here. I don't even have a decent excuse. If you are ever at Carson, we can go shoot and you can laugh at how much I suck, with a wide variety of rifle and pistol optics.

One thing we do absolutely agree on is that getting good with what gear you have is way more important than what you choose to buy (assuming it isn't junk that fails). Some dudes are very good with using an ACOG to clear rooms. I even met a dude who claimed it was just as good as an RDS for that.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 7:51:41 PM EST
[#23]
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I hope your dog gets better. No apology necessary, I'm not going to get offended in an online optic opinion debate. I doubt you are either. But I still want to apologize for the snarky tone I've taken with you here. I don't even have a decent excuse. If you are ever at Carson, we can go shoot and you can laugh at how much I suck, with a wide variety of rifle and pistol optics.

One thing we do absolutely agree on is that getting good with what gear you have is way more important than what you choose to buy (assuming it isn't junk that fails). Some dudes are very good with using an ACOG to clear rooms. I even met a dude who claimed it was just as good as an RDS for that.
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I would like to start with this-I'm sorry I came off rude the other night-I was at the animal hospital with my dog who's dying of heart failure and took it out on you.


Because there isn't an actual difference in splits once you start getting off the flat range. It's not something I can easily quantify over a forum. I wish we were closer because so I could demonstrate this stuff but it's the truth. Those hundreths and thousandths of seconds do not exist on the clock in cqb for those that solid fundamentals-the times come out exactly the same. If you have different times then YOU are the weakpoint in the system. Another possibility is you just do not jive with whatever reticle you are using. I've seen dudes that can't do shit with an eotech because they find the donut too distracting. Real talk.

another thing that i've noticed become more prominent: dudes that started out with irons or an acog have a much much easier time using an lpvo for cqb stuff than those who started with eotechs and aimpoints.

I wish I could get with you in real life as im sure we could learn a thing or two from each other. I said this earlier, but the complete lack of training in the entire .mil complex saddens me. Only a select few are lucky enough to get consistent, solid training and the rest are left to fend for themselves


I hope your dog gets better. No apology necessary, I'm not going to get offended in an online optic opinion debate. I doubt you are either. But I still want to apologize for the snarky tone I've taken with you here. I don't even have a decent excuse. If you are ever at Carson, we can go shoot and you can laugh at how much I suck, with a wide variety of rifle and pistol optics.

One thing we do absolutely agree on is that getting good with what gear you have is way more important than what you choose to buy (assuming it isn't junk that fails). Some dudes are very good with using an ACOG to clear rooms. I even met a dude who claimed it was just as good as an RDS for that.

100% agree with all of this. I fucking suck with a pistol compared to my rifle and I shoot my pistol a A LOT. Pistols have just never jived with me and I'm probably a worse technical shot than you lol.

I'm REALLY confident at cqb and urban stuff in general and the last shoot house I did I got absolutely destroyed by some dude rocking a ta31 on an m4 and irons on his pistol. Just this old dude... vibe checking targets with an acog making all our high speed setups look like shit lol
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 8:12:57 PM EST
[#24]
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Thanks my dude. If it keeps progressing at this rate he has a month at best.
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I’m really sorry to hear that. I’ve been in those shoes and it was lame as fuck.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 8:14:54 PM EST
[#25]
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I’m really sorry to hear that. I’ve been in those shoes and it was lame as fuck.
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Thanks my dude. If it keeps progressing at this rate he has a month at best.

I’m really sorry to hear that. I’ve been in those shoes and it was lame as fuck.

I honestly don't care if he goes tomorrow or in 10 years as long as he doesn't suffer. Seeing him gasping for air was hard. He's never going for another hike with me or ever going back to the range. He loves shooting lol
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 8:19:14 PM EST
[#26]
Man, that sucks. Like I said, fuck guns and optics; that shit is gay, comparatively. Sorry about your dog. I hope you get/got some good time with him.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 8:21:33 PM EST
[#27]
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Quoted:
Man, that sucks. Like I said, fuck guns and optics; that shit is gay, comparatively. Sorry about your dog. I hope you get/got some good time with him.
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We have had some adventures that's for sure! People always laugh seeing a chihuahua in a vest and wearing hearing protection just sitting on my left side while I sling led at targets :)
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 8:27:41 PM EST
[#28]
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Quoted:

We have had some adventures that's for sure! People always laugh seeing a chihuahua in a vest and wearing hearing protection just sitting on my left side while I sling led at targets :)
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I’m glad you’ve had a good time with your companion. It can be hard to get past that.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 9:30:22 PM EST
[#29]
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It's perfectly acceptable to simply not jive with something.
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This cannot be overstated. There is no one size fits all. What works for me may not work for you, and vice versa.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 10:17:50 PM EST
[#30]
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Quoted:

We have had some adventures that's for sure! People always laugh seeing a chihuahua in a vest and wearing hearing protection just sitting on my left side while I sling led at targets :)
View Quote

Your dog sounds like a good one. All the small dogs my wife and I or my parents have had are/were terrified of guns.

ETA. As for my original post I've decided I'm going to keep the LPVO on a rifle as I see there are circumstances where it would be superior. It's good to have options.
Link Posted: 9/12/2023 10:23:51 PM EST
[#31]
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Quoted:

Your dog sounds like a good one. All the small dogs my wife and I or my parents have had are/were terrified of guns.

ETA. As for my original post I've decided I'm going to keep the LPVO on a rifle as I see there are circumstances where it would be superior. It's good to have options.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

We have had some adventures that's for sure! People always laugh seeing a chihuahua in a vest and wearing hearing protection just sitting on my left side while I sling led at targets :)

Your dog sounds like a good one. All the small dogs my wife and I or my parents have had are/were terrified of guns.

ETA. As for my original post I've decided I'm going to keep the LPVO on a rifle as I see there are circumstances where it would be superior. It's good to have options.


If it's a tool you struggle to improve with shoot me a DM.

He's good with pistols and suppressed rifles. Not good auto-loaders that don't have cans
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 6:22:51 AM EST
[#32]
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Quoted:


If it's a tool you struggle to improve with shoot me a DM.

He's good with pistols and suppressed rifles. Not good auto-loaders that don't have cans
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Thanks for the offer. Actually I shoot the LPVO pretty dang good(more accurate than the RDS), I just haven't warned up yet to the extra bulk they have.
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 8:59:15 AM EST
[#33]
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Quoted:

Thanks for the offer. Actually I shoot the LPVO pretty dang good(more accurate than the RDS), I just haven't warned up yet to the extra bulk they have.
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That definitely is a downside but what are your thoughts on all the new prism optics hitting the market.  Example the PA micro prisms, previous gen3 options, Vortex options, or ACOG?
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 9:47:22 AM EST
[#34]
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Quoted:

Thanks for the offer. Actually I shoot the LPVO pretty dang good(more accurate than the RDS), I just haven't warned up yet to the extra bulk they have.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


If it's a tool you struggle to improve with shoot me a DM.

He's good with pistols and suppressed rifles. Not good auto-loaders that don't have cans

Thanks for the offer. Actually I shoot the LPVO pretty dang good(more accurate than the RDS), I just haven't warned up yet to the extra bulk they have.

Fair. They do have that 'oh lawd he comin' feel
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 12:40:29 PM EST
[#35]
Quoted:
Tried a LPVO years ago and it didn't stick with me. Tried again last winter with a nicer model and I'm already thinking about pulling it and replacing with a RDS. The scope is nice but I only have access to a range that's longer than 200yds for a few months of the year(when the crops are out) otherwise my shooting is all within 200 and with a RDS I'm more than accurate enough at those ranges for defensive/SHTF shooting scenarios. I could probably buy a magnifier with a removable mount for those times I might think I need a little more power.

Past 200yds I think a guy would be better off with a larger caliber and more power than a LPVO offers.
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Chris Kyle used a 5.56 DMR to kill what over a hundred people?
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 12:55:24 PM EST
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Chris Kyle used a 5.56 DMR to kill what over a hundred people?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tried a LPVO years ago and it didn't stick with me. Tried again last winter with a nicer model and I'm already thinking about pulling it and replacing with a RDS. The scope is nice but I only have access to a range that's longer than 200yds for a few months of the year(when the crops are out) otherwise my shooting is all within 200 and with a RDS I'm more than accurate enough at those ranges for defensive/SHTF shooting scenarios. I could probably buy a magnifier with a removable mount for those times I might think I need a little more power.

Past 200yds I think a guy would be better off with a larger caliber and more power than a LPVO offers.
Chris Kyle used a 5.56 DMR to kill what over a hundred people?



…. Ain’t luggin that ^^^ around anywhere
.
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 12:57:47 PM EST
[#37]
I love LPVO’s but I hate their bulk more than that.

SupersetCA did some transition testing with different configurations and found using a magnified optic as a semi OEG up close and far was actually faster than any other configuration. So an LPVO set on 4Xor a fixed 3/5X prism outran changing magnification on all set ups, even the offset red dots.

What he didn’t speak to was accuracy, as phoria is a real concern. The prism with a 35* offset was second fastest, followed by a prism with a piggy back and then changing magnification on an LPVO.

Next time I’m out I’ll do some shot timing. I’ve always found a red dot and offset to be fastest but haven’t tested accuracy using BAC/OEG.

Link Posted: 9/13/2023 1:23:21 PM EST
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I love LPVO’s but I hate their bulk more than that.

SupersetCA did some transition testing with different configurations and found using a magnified optic as a semi OEG up close and far was actually faster than any other configuration. So an LPVO set on 4Xor a fixed 3/5X prism outran changing magnification on all set ups, even the offset red dots.

What he didn’t speak to was accuracy, as phoria is a real concern. The prism with a 35* offset was second fastest, followed by a prism with a piggy back and then changing magnification on an LPVO.

Next time I’m out I’ll do some shot timing. I’ve always found a red dot and offset to be fastest but haven’t tested accuracy using BAC/OEG.

View Quote

Thats how we use them for general things-lpvo on 'default setting' the user Likes. Adjust up for down depending on whatever happens. My personal atacr lives on 4x and goes up or down depending on what I need it to do
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 1:30:15 PM EST
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I love LPVO’s but I hate their bulk more than that.

SupersetCA did some transition testing with different configurations and found using a magnified optic as a semi OEG up close and far was actually faster than any other configuration. So an LPVO set on 4Xor a fixed 3/5X prism outran changing magnification on all set ups, even the offset red dots.

What he didn’t speak to was accuracy, as phoria is a real concern. The prism with a 35* offset was second fastest, followed by a prism with a piggy back and then changing magnification on an LPVO.

Next time I’m out I’ll do some shot timing. I’ve always found a red dot and offset to be fastest but haven’t tested accuracy using BAC/OEG.

View Quote


Shooting occluded has been around a while in the 2gun/3gun circuit. Personally, For instances when a close target needs to be engaged while I’m shooting long distance, I shoot it occluded as long as the target is <15 yds and is not covered by hard cover or no shoots. If the latter is the case, I slow down and use the magnified view to make the shot.
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 1:37:29 PM EST
[#40]
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Quoted:
I've had a LVPO since waayyy before anyone called them that. Had a Leupold 1.5-5x20 SPR on my patrol rifle in the early 2000's. Still have the same scope on a rifle to this day.
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I had a Simmons 1.5-5x20 on a deer rifle as a kid. I wish I still had it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 1:42:48 PM EST
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Thats how we use them for general things-lpvo on 'default setting' the user Likes. Adjust up for down depending on whatever happens. My personal atacr lives on 4x and goes up or down depending on what I need it to do
View Quote

That’s actually what lead me down the prism path. I was just leaving my LPVO’s on 3X. No sense in having an extra pound of optic and a smaller exit pupil. Micro red dots were just icing on the cake.
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 1:45:28 PM EST
[#42]
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Quoted:

That’s actually what lead me down the prism path. I was just leaving my LPVO’s on 3X. No sense in having an extra pound of optic and a smaller exit pupil. Micro red dots were just icing on the cake.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Thats how we use them for general things-lpvo on 'default setting' the user Likes. Adjust up for down depending on whatever happens. My personal atacr lives on 4x and goes up or down depending on what I need it to do

That’s actually what lead me down the prism path. I was just leaving my LPVO’s on 3X. No sense in having an extra pound of optic and a smaller exit pupil. Micro red dots were just icing on the cake.

Perfectly fair if you don't actually use more magnification. I do use 6-8 almost as often as I use 1
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 1:54:27 PM EST
[#43]
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Quoted:

Perfectly fair if you don't actually use more magnification. I do use 6-8 almost as often as I use 1
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Yep and that’s the big caveat. I don’t shoot my 5.56 AR’s past 300 hardly ever anymore. My 308 on the other hand has a 1-6 on it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2023 2:00:51 PM EST
[#44]
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Quoted:

Yep and that’s the big caveat. I don’t shoot my 5.56 AR’s past 300 hardly ever anymore. My 308 on the other hand has a 1-6 on it.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Perfectly fair if you don't actually use more magnification. I do use 6-8 almost as often as I use 1

Yep and that’s the big caveat. I don’t shoot my 5.56 AR’s past 300 hardly ever anymore. My 308 on the other hand has a 1-6 on it.

It's rare but I do push mine to 800 occasionally. The normal range I go to have steel hung all the way out to 400 so I normally shoot the smaller steel. 6" diamonds shooting off a mag pod are a decent challenge for consistent hit
Link Posted: 9/15/2023 4:43:53 PM EST
[#45]
I don't think I use my LPVO how most people seem to. I'm not zooming in to 6 and trying to make a 400 yard shot. I'm using that zoom to place a 77g projectile in a CNS department or major cardiac department IE cerebrum or heart for the quickest elimination of my threat. Otherwise i'm rolling on x1. So even if I'm zooming my shot is usually still well within 200 yards.
Link Posted: 9/15/2023 5:05:31 PM EST
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't think I use my LPVO how most people seem to. I'm not zooming in to 6 and trying to make a 400 yard shot. I'm using that zoom to place a 77g projectile in a CNS department or major cardiac department IE cerebrum or heart for the quickest elimination of my threat. Otherwise i'm rolling on x1. So even if I'm zooming my shot is usually still well within 200 yards.
View Quote

Sounds like a perfect use to me
Link Posted: 9/15/2023 5:06:27 PM EST
[#47]
Batteries on prism scopes are optional not required. Watch youtube.com battle videos and you will see no long scopes used. 1X microprism or 2X. If you want more get a dedicated qd long scope. Chances are you would use at the range more than you would in situations. Do you hunt with red dot?
Link Posted: 9/15/2023 7:15:43 PM EST
[#48]
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Quoted:

Sounds like a perfect use to me
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't think I use my LPVO how most people seem to. I'm not zooming in to 6 and trying to make a 400 yard shot. I'm using that zoom to place a 77g projectile in a CNS department or major cardiac department IE cerebrum or heart for the quickest elimination of my threat. Otherwise i'm rolling on x1. So even if I'm zooming my shot is usually still well within 200 yards.

Sounds like a perfect use to me

Seriously..

People trying to use lpvo's to shoot groups at distance baffle me.
Link Posted: 9/16/2023 10:57:02 AM EST
[#49]
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Quoted:

Sounds like a perfect use to me
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't think I use my LPVO how most people seem to. I'm not zooming in to 6 and trying to make a 400 yard shot. I'm using that zoom to place a 77g projectile in a CNS department or major cardiac department IE cerebrum or heart for the quickest elimination of my threat. Otherwise i'm rolling on x1. So even if I'm zooming my shot is usually still well within 200 yards.

Sounds like a perfect use to me

Same
1X is the point of an LPVO. If the 1X ain’t somewhere near as fast as an Aimpoint then just use a red dot and magnifier or a 6-24 and piggyback/offset RMR.
If ya have time to aim small then it doesn’t matter what magnification tool you use to aim small. You have time to work through any shortcomings. If a hog is charging you then your 1X needs to be spot on.
Link Posted: 9/16/2023 1:20:18 PM EST
[#50]
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Quoted:
I don't think I use my LPVO how most people seem to. I'm not zooming in to 6 and trying to make a 400 yard shot. I'm using that zoom to place a 77g projectile in a CNS department or major cardiac department IE cerebrum or heart for the quickest elimination of my threat. Otherwise i'm rolling on x1. So even if I'm zooming my shot is usually still well within 200 yards.
View Quote

That is how I ended up with 300blk and a flip to side 3X, but regardless of equipment, I think what you described is a realistic use case for most folks (target shooting or long range big game hunting is another story).

Precision close-ish shots seem more useful (to me) than 1/4 mile shots.
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