Considering it's popularity in .gov circles (despite being virtually nonexistent on the US civvie market), has the HK416 proven itself to be the best of the piston ARs? Or is it chosen by military/LEO worldwide when they want a piston AR simply because it's "good enough" and better options exist elsewhere?

Does the 416 get a fair shake from U.S. shooters? After all we can only get the nerfed abortion MR556 (or be rich and pay stupid prices for a grey market 416 upper) and most people only know what the 416 is due to video games and movies, not real-life experience.

What do you think?

The 416 is a good weapon, I am not sure if i would label it the hold standard of Piston AR's.

A significant reason its enjoyed widespread adoption,  especially in europe is that its probably the best Euro AR available.

It wouldn't of mattered if it was a DI or Piston.

They could buy colts form the US or HK's from the euro zone. They probably end up spending less on HK

This has been hashed over and over and over again...

HK416 is the most successful Piston AR based platform thus far. It is pretty much in the arsenal of almost all of NATO's SF forces and some standing armies (like France and Norway).

So these threads are kind of dumb now...just saying...

In .gov circles...absolutely the go to weapon when budgets allows...along with SCARs and Tavors....the BREN2 is making some push as well...

But the HK416 owns the SF market for 5.56 right now...which makes sense...a lot of NATO SF units cross train regularly...which almost always spear headed by USSOCOM...

It's really the only one that has seen a good amount of military adoption and use. I haven't heard of any countries that issue it being unhappy with it. The only reason you don't see them more widespread in the US commercial market is obviously the price. You could buy a safe full of AR15s for what one HK 416 costs. Plus there's other options like the SCAR for people who want something more exotic, and the SCAR at least has features that both the AR15 and 416 do not have, like a folding stock.

Taiwan's T91 is pretty good as well at a fraction of the cost. I believe a few countries in the middle east are using them.

Beats making nut coal jokes in GD.

Sorry if this is a tired topic... I only just got interested in piston ARs a few months ago myself so it's still interesting to me.

There's a lot of crap written about the 416 online, lots of negativity but I figure there's a reason the militaries of the world have kept buying 'em for 15 years straight.

In short, yes.
Yes it is.

Most people that nag on the platform never touched a MR556 let alone a real deal 416.

It is a solid platform.

I haven’t invested in the MR556 platform because HK USA is still stuck on the A1 configuration. It’s outdated. Plus I have a SCAR16 so no real need now.

This is not true. Folding stock are available for AR’s. I don’t see a need for them though.

If you didn’t like the post then you didn’t have to reply. I actually think it’s a pretty good post because many more piston weapons are out now and seeing service. Sig 516 and MCX are starting to see service in many countries. Bren 2 is making a move as well. Feel free to not get into the conversation.

I have a Full. Auto 516 which is very similar to 416. They are front heavy.  I would take a Colt M4 all day over a piston.  Pistons are better for suppressors from my experience.  Pistons are still gassy though suppressed.

Saw a video with Dean Sylvester from PWS. It was interesting to get his take on the HK416. Basically said every time their was a problem they "fixed" it by causing other problems, then had to "fix" those problems. I know he's selling long stroke vs short stroke but he seemed to have some good info. PWS also designed the BRN-180 upper for Brownells.

Might be this one.

https://youtu.be/JH88XlGpOVs

I with they would offer some factory options without the quad rail, at least for the civilian market

Man. You added a lot of value to this discussion with that post.

Dean Sylvester isn't wrong from my understanding of the HK416 and the evolution it has gone through. It was overpassed from the get go, mainly because H&K didn't understand dwell time. Then other issues came as a result of what H&K did to fix that.

I own a PWS Mk111 Mod 2. It shoots as soft as my KAC SR16, if not slightly softer when I put the gas setting on #2. It is lighter than my KAC. My suppressor isn't out of jail yet, but I would have zero problems saying my PWS upper and lower is every bit as nice and innovative as my KAC.

I am too poor to own a true HK416. Would love to own one or even shoot one.

Mike Jones (Garand Thumb) has an interesting take on the PWS Mk111 vs. the HK416.

I think it was a gold standard back in, say, 2004-2008 time frame, and has been rolling with its' momentum since then.  But like any snapshot in time, technology, innovation, and improvements continue to march forward and I think at this time, it's a dated gold standard.  Even the designers of the original 416 have continued to innovate.

I've shot a real 416 a few times. Definitely heavy and gassy. Click HERE for video evidence of such. Yeah, it's suppressed, but damn, it's like a cloud!

Can't say anything else about the gun other than those first impressions as I haven't done much else with it other than a few full auto mag dumps...

Man people hate it but the ARX family of guns are solid.

Not a piston AR.

I have one, and while it is a very well put together and accurate rifle, it is very heavy and the recoil is a little overboard.  It has been 100 percent reliable, but I still think that it’s only benefit is that it runs cleaner than a gas gun.  But if you don’t mind cleaning a gas gun every 2000 rounds, then the cleanliness of a 416 isn’t worth the price.

Other than being priced like it's made of gold, I think Europeans use it because it's basically the only game in town for an AR made on the continent in any numbers.  And for military and police contracts, supply matters.

Stateside, I don't see what it does any better than a Japanese Howa or Taiwanese T91.

As a civvy, I like my PWS....but I still bought a T91 upper.  Not that I wouldn't like to have the HK, I know they make excellent quality stuff, but it seems like it would be unduly heavy for what I would do with it, and not do anything a BREN 805 or 806 wouldn't do for cheaper.

How do you like your T91 upper compared to your PWS? I was debating back and forth between the two and ended up going with the PWS first. At this point, not sure if the T91 adds anything other than the nice military history that it has regarding use. I was predominately looking at one for use as a suppressor host and the PWS seemed like the better route.

You have to look at the 416's design as a whole.

The AR platform was not designed by Stoner to be piston.

HK designed the 416 to mitigate stress points, heat and recoil associated with pistons on ARs. It is a tank.

Closest to it is the Caracal 816...while 516 shares similar design...it is simply retro fitted into a standard upper receiver...

I like the PWS considerably more and think it is a better mechanism.  It's definitely lighter, simpler, and more accurate, and would make a great suppressor host.  And they've only dropped in price since I got mine (but they also dropped the chromed BCG and such).  The PWS Pro is something I want to see in person, but it came out after my Mk116 (and also after I bought my T91 and had a kid.  Both things put a dent in the gun budget).

My T91 is less accurate and different to clean.  But I like its heritage, and for the price I have a militarily proven design for a good rate.  It's a nice blaster and good bang around rifle, and I'm glad I own one.  *note that I bought the upper to put on a lower that I already had set up how I like it, and put the existing upper to different use.

While I don't expect them to be the same thing, I still think the PWS is a better rifle and mechanism.  But I'm still a little skeptical that the HK short stroke is 10x better than the Taiwanese short stroke.

But I am not the military, and have to worry about silly things like a budget

Yes it was.
Contrary too what people believe, DI AR'sr still have a piston.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/-/130-165511/

Yes. We know.

Seems quite a few people don't.

This thread is creeping toward a DI vs piston.

To answer OP's question, yes.  Its a 20+ year old widely adopted design with probably millions of rounds fired through the platform.  It has its downsides but its by far the most proven piston AR.

We do, were just skipping the semantics. For the purposes of discussion, DI = piston on the bolt, Piston = external piston.

The only thing I dont like about my LWRC piston guns is they vent under the handguard and blow gas all over my hand..   In an Lwrc a5 you get a adjustable gas block thinner rail.  And American parts that are not hard to get from the manufacturer..  and I have never had a problem out of one...  you can pick a lwrc complete upper up new for about 2k from lwrc..  even less on the EE

But I also have a 416.. well becase..  it is a fucking HK416 .lol

416 GOAT. Don't @ me

Thanks. I try.

Caracal is almost identical to 516? Have you looked at the gas system?  Rail is a little higher on the caracal.  I have both. I’d like to know what you are seeing because most aren’t seeing much difference in the systems. Different rail and attachment but not much??? I shoot the 516 full auto and haven’t the caracal.  I wish the caracal had CL barrel

I have only seen pictures of the 816's gas piston system.  But, from the pictures that I saw, it did look virtually identical to the 516's system (I do own three 516's and am very familiar with the gas system that rifle uses).  If you have both, what do you find different about the 816.  FYI, all of my 516's are Gen2 models.

Of course they are closely similar...the engineer that created the 416...made the 516 and 816...shouldn't surprise anyone to see similarities...

Caracal in the A2 configuration is the closest thing to a Hk416...period...much closer than a 516.

The caracal upper much closer resembles the Hk416...516 uses a standard AR type upper with a quite subpar rail attachment...

No need for CL...the barrel is nitrided...I wish the barrel was cold hammer forged with nitriding over CL.

Dean seems like a pretty cool guy and has a fair bit of knowledge under his belt, but in this case i would say that his issues with the 416 stem from a fumdamental misunderstanding of the system.

His description, or strange lack thereof, regarding dwell time kind of touches on this.

The 416 troubleshoot like any other gas driven rifle except that the perameters are different due to the location of the piston vs. a DI gun.

While dwell time is important, the size of the gas port is just as important in the equation. Applying these same fundamentals from DI to short stroke to long stroke with the knowledge of the different perameters involved is the key to success.

Also, approaching troubleshooting from a milspec point if view is important. The fact is that that an explination of "fixing one problem and causing others" is a classic example of troubleshooting from the wrong direction and is why so many new shooters end up chasing their tails and spend a lot of time and money fixing extremely simple issues.

Many times they will have a sime failure, come to a place like here, ask a question and get bombarded with high level tech advice (some very incorrect as well) that cause them to troubleshoot from an advanced systems point of view (that they don't really understand yet) rathwr than from a fundamental systems "normalization" point if view.

By that i mean they immediatly go into gas port sizes and whatnot before ensuring that the basic fundamentals have been "normalized" and brought into milspec operating perameters. Is it really a gas port issue or is it an incorrectly manufactured or simply worn out action spring? Is it an oversized gas port or a worn/broken ejector spring? Is it a gas port issue or is it a loose carrier key?  Etc. Etc. Etc.

Regarding 416s, the same fundamentals apply. If you are "fixing" a problem and causing others, then you didn't take care of the fundamemtals and "normalize" the gun in the first place.

Also keep in mind that to do this qith a 416, having a knowledge base regarding the "milspec" for a 416 is necessary. The "milspec" for a 416 is not the same as the milspec for a DI gun. They have different action spring strengths, different ejector spring strengths, etc.

You *can* install USGI parts in the vast majority of the 416, and change the operating dynamics entirely though, but i would NOT suggest this unless someone has a very firm grasp of the system as it was originally designed to run.

All of this being said, the people who crap on the 416 the most are the people who understand it the least. Their loss not mine.

I think you mean CL over nitriding. Nitriding destroys CL.

I'm also unsure that CL would properly adhere to nitriding. The inherent natural lubricity of nitride may prevent a proper bond.

I have wondered about this for quite some time.

Shoot full auto pretty often so I like chrome lined more.  If it was just a simi auto then yes, nitride would be fine.  I don’t have any issue with the 516’s rail.  I’ve never heard of it being inferior. Please list a thread or source.  I am not saying you are wrong but I don’t see any issues whatsoever.  I have a lot of rounds through the 516 both simi and full auto. 14.5 and 10.5 inch.  It’s a great weapon that matches up well with any piston gun in my opinion.

Lots of interesting info, thanks guys...

I ask because I'm currently learning my way around a new 416 upper (14.5" barrel w/pinned and welded FH) mated to a MR lower... I don't have any experience with external piston ARs (20+ years with DI though) so I have no baseline of similar guns to compare it with.

My impressions are that it's a REALLY nice setup. Recoil is about the same as my Colt LE6920 but I hardly hear or feel the buffer tube spring while cycling. The whole gun stays amazingly clean and just feels really tight and well-made. Accuracy is superb.

Granted, I haven't humped the rifle over a bunch of miles but the extra weight is hardly noticeable to me... it's just enough to give some confidence in it being a sturdy gun but not really slow me down. I can see why it's so popular with the LEO/.mil guys, even with a longer barrel than the shorty version.

I only have a few hundred rounds through it so maybe my opinion will change with more experience but if other piston ARs are even half as good as the HK I'm finally sold on the piston concept.

The only downside I see is the cost of entry to play with an HK416, but I realize most of the markup is due to "collector's value" so I can't complain too much. It's just wrong that we can't buy something like this straight from HK for under $2k like The Man can.

The way it attaches is not that secure for one and its quite old school with 4 screws with a bottom plate that spreads the rail over the barrel nut.

I've had 4-516s...dig the platform...don't get me wrong...but Sig's inability to hold tolerances or lining up the gas blocks perfectly leaves a lot to be desired for the money you pay....never had a single handguard in the 516/716 family that lined up with the upper to the gas block...Sig fixed this by going to the G2 attachment on the 716 (think POF) but that never went over to the 516 because it was and is getting canned.

I think the 516s and 816s gas system is a better design than the 416.

HK makes world class weapons. That said, I would argue that the LWRC is on par and in some respects a better choice with respect to the AP pattern piston rifles.. US made, high quality parts, excellent customer service, more caliber options and configurations, stable corporate structure, used by multiple LE and foreign governments. (US, Sweden, Jordan, Singapore, UK, Saudi Royal Guard)

Isn't the Marine Corps going fully over to the H&K (M27)?

They've been using them as a SAW replacement for some years now, supposedly they are also going to be replacing the M4 with it as well.

I too would love to have a 416 but the redonkulas prices would make it to where I wouldn’t shoot it.  I got a 516 to quench my thirst for one.  I even put a 416 grip and stock on it.

Only in line units, M4 stays for rear units. Also M27 with removed SDO and added Leupold TS-30A2 Mark 4 MR/T (taken from existing stock of Mk12) is designated as M38 SDMR

Anyone who doesn't consider the 416 the piston standard is just deluding themselves.  It may not be the most elegantly designed AR with the most pleasant recoil impulse, but it is the most successful and widely adopted piston AR ever and has proven itself in combat.  The gun killed Osama Bin Laden, for crying out loud.  It certainly isn't my favorite AR15, but it certainly is the most prolific piston AR.  I wouldn't mind owning one if they weren't 18 bazillion dollars.

LWRC beat out HK416 with numerous US GOV agencies plus SCAR and Tavors? (maybe in online gaming but real world nope)
Plus although piston rifles Tavor, SCAR, Bren etc are totally different guns and not piston ARs/M4s.

HK416 is good, and no doubt has the most military contracts but that does not mean its the best, that just means its in the system
and easy for U.S  MIL to get and they have a huge military sales machine.
Only certain Tier1 units have HK416s SF does not, MK18 still main carbine for USSOCOM
(I do think Marines adopting M27 was a slick move to get piston rifles)

Piston wise;
HK has not updated their design at all, needing to take hand guard off to get piston rod access was cool for 2007.
Having used HK416, LWRC, and SCARs in the military, HK416 felt recoil compared to just about every other piston gun on the planet is horrendous.

I love piston ARs, but I think many companies offer much better piston ARs than HK.

I haven't shot any of the piston AR alternatives but I wouldn't describe the HK416's recoil as "horrendous"... maybe that reputation comes from the old unvented 10.5" version but it hasn't been my experience. I think the recoil impulse on my 416/MR is only just barely more than my LE6920 with only slightly more reticle "bounce" between shots. I've also been doing a lot of shooting with a SCAR 17 lately so the HK feels like a peashooter in comparison.

Granted, the 416 is no ultra smooth competition "race gun" like a JP but it was built to go to war and stand up to abuse, not dominate 2-gun matches so it's naturally gonna handle differently.

Anyway, recoil is a funny thing since it depends so much on individual perception. Seems to me that complaint about the 416 is mostly overblown internet banter, however.

I disagree, head to head HK416 harsher than  LWRC, Adams Arms, FERFRANS to name a few,
Not comparing race gun to HK416, but duty style piston rifle to similar duty piston rifles.

Back in 2008ish at FT Bragg we compared HK416 to AA, and LWRC.
At time AA shot smoothest recoil, since then LWRC has really stepped up their game current LWRC very smooth.
HK416...no change

Its a tank in the German sense i.e Panther/Jagtiger.  The Germans tend to come up with overly complex methods to mitigate theoretical issue. HK developed a solution to mitigate heat and prolong bolt life.  In Repeated DOD testing with A1, HK's lose bolt lugs 50 percent faster than colt, and 75 percent faster than LMT. Guess heat wasnt really the issue.  its only been 10 years, you would think the premier arms manufacture in Europe could figure that out.

Same thing with Recoil, some how the managed to get their rifle to recoil more than a rifle that weighs about a pound less.

Theoretically they can run longer suppressed than a DI, but in reality we are not sending guys on patrol with a 3x combat load, everybody doesnt have a silencer, and running cleaner really does not matter since all grunts do is clean weapons and rat fuck MRE's when not on patrol.

In no way do I think the the HK is a bad weapon, but after years of seeing it outclassed in both domestic and international defense testing it really is nothing special.  For larger Euro forces, HK is the only firm that can complete contracts, for smaller forces, they have more flexibility

I guess I can't argue which is the smoothest shooter since I have no experience with the competition but I can't say the HK's recoil impulse is a deal-breaker or even think it's annoying in any way.

I think familiarity, reliability, accuracy and parts longevity is probably the biggest draw, plus HK's considerable track record for fulfilling military/LEO contracts.

Yet despite being "outclassed", the HK416 keeps getting more big contracts worldwide while the other piston AR designs built to beat it generally languish and are dying a slow death on the marketplace.

Not trying to be a smartass but why is that? It's gotta be more than just teutonic fairy dust that's driving more widespread adoption of the design...

Do you have the studies handy of DOD evaluation of 416 vs. M4?

I've put in multiple FOIA requests on this subject and get repeatedly stonewalled every time.