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Posted: 10/20/2004 9:46:40 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 10/20/2004 10:02:07 AM EDT
[#2]
16"+Midlength gas system= DISSERGY!
 
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Posted: 10/20/2004 10:30:25 AM EDT
[#3]
1) Heavy OTM bullets were not 'engineered' in any way to fragment. It just a happy coincidence (like M193). 2) there is no 77gr TAP. The heavy TAP round is the 75gr OTM (and yes it's a very good round). The 77gr rounds are the SMK and the Nosler OTM both of which have been used in Mk262 ammo. 3) Yes we (Brou, Tat, and I ) have posted information on the 'fragmentation threshold' for some of the heavy OTMs - use the search feature. 4) The 75gr and 77gr are perhaps the most lethal 5.56/.223 rounds produced - but they are not nearly as good as the 6.8 loads and the better .308 loads (like the 155gr TAP). 5) You can buy 75gr OTM for as little as $18 for a box of 50 rounds - that's less than half the price of 'premium' handgun hollow points. I don't see alot of bitching about buying them.. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 10:44:05 AM EDT
[#4]
FWIW, three of my ARs are in "Dissipator" configuration - 2 actual Bushmasters (with barrels "massaged" by KKF) and a "post-ban" (moot now, I know) DPMS copy, made to order. I like all three very much. Here is the DPMS (don't have pictures of the Bushies handy, but they are plain-Jane except for Kurt's work):
 I've been thinking of putting a collapsible stock on one of the Bushmaster Dissies. Any of you who have collapsibles on your Dissy: Do you like it? Does it worsen the balance/handling? ETA: FWIW, back during the "AWB years" I always thought the Dissy had the best look of any plain-barrelled (no thread/FS) AR available (no - I don't buy them for looks either, just sayin'...  ).
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Posted: 10/20/2004 11:04:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Hey HARDSHELL, that thing is sweet dude. I really like the camo job.
wulf50guy I really like the way you did you optics system. Dammit man...I have seen some sweet looking Dissi rifles on this thread...I am glad to have read it so far. My dissi is plain jane and rock and rolls just fine but I have gotten some damned fine ideas and now I just need to make a decision on what I want to do as far as upgrades on looks go. I know I know looks aint everything but most men aint gonna marry an ugly woman just cause she is good in bed, we want her to look good too Kinda like guns, I know it runs fast but it would sure look better with some new body work. Thanks for the ideas fellas even though you all didnt even know it! Wes |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 11:58:09 AM EDT
[#6]
LordVulcanizer,
It shoots very well. I just got back from the range. I'll post a range report with some pics later tonight. I can't shoot as well as this rifle can. Off sand bag type support I was shooting right on the money with a 3.5" group at 100 meters (iron sights). The FS works great. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 12:20:57 PM EDT
[#7]
I've got a pre-ban configured Bushmaster Dissipator, but I paid extra for the fluted barrel. I highly recommend that for those who feel the Dissy feels barrel heavy.
Tline |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:10:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Lord Vulcanizer,
I used a C.R.T.C., INC. B-C Cam AR15/M16 mount I got from Brownell's. I liked it because the front platform is adjustable to help you cowitness your irons. Worked out great for me. It was a really tight fit, only thing I didn't like was I has sand on it a little to get it fit just right in the carry handle. But it's not going to shoot loose for sure and the front screws holding the optic platform are just as solid. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:43:47 PM EDT
[#9]
When you co-witness your sights you are basically ligning them up too shoot on par with your optical sight right? So when you use it basically what do you see? Do you line up a dot or cross with your irons? I have never used a config like this so I do not know how it works. I had purchased one of those cheap leapers scopes that mounts onto my carrying handle but it kinda sucks. It was cheap and just an experiment....next purchase will not be skimped on, I just wanted to see how it felt to use a scope on the carrying handle. It felt quit fine to me. The cheap leapers actually grouped quite well. The 1/4 moa clicks were full of shit though. I could adjust it up or down like I would a normal scope but the clicks would move it an inch verses a quarter of an inch. Leupold makes a tactical solution for an AR-15, I may look into theirs. I dont want to spend too much though. I have seen so decent looking night vision peices on the net for around 500 bucks though. NV is what I really want. I have bobcats and coyotes that definately do not belong in my front yard but they are here all the same and I want them gone.
Wes |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:58:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Well the way I did it this time I looked through the peep sights and set the center dot on the eotech right over the top of the front post. I've done it this way before and it usually gets me on paper and close to being on target. When I look through the Eotech I don't see anything but the very top of the fsb in the window.
When I look thorugh the peeps I am sighting through the bottom 1/4 of the eotechs window. I don't have any experience co-witnessing with BUIS. Somebody else can probable explain that one a little better than me. Should your optic sight, whether it's Eotech or aimpoint basically have it dot centered on the top fsb if you look through the peeps with it on? Or is it possible for the centered optic to appear off compared to the Irons if you look through them at the same time? |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 5:30:19 PM EDT
[#11]
Take the same high performance ammo and shoot it out a full size A4 and it it once again it out performs the M4A1. Yes you can modify the M4A1 to be a better gun, but make the same modifcations, plus better ammo to an M16A4 and it becomes the better overall, more universal, rifle. Carbines have never been able to match the performance of a full size. Nothing has changed either... |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 5:50:02 PM EDT
[#12]
With standard 62 gr military:
14.5": 65 yards 16": 90 yards 20": 120 yards The Bushmaster Bullpup (the stock version) kind of sucks. Unfortunately, it hasn't made enough profit to justify any upgrades. However, if it were really pursued some research and planning on BM's part could make it really awesome. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 6:28:06 PM EDT
[#13]
My first AR was the BM dissy, Liked the looks, and the sight radius. Found that I like the M4 better, as it just swings and points better for me. As far as the barrel length vs effective range goes...I also considered the 5.56 to be a short range cartridge so I see no reason to have an extra 4 inches on the end. Not to continue the strife, but if I knew I was going to be needing longer range power or penetration...I'd grab one of my .308 FALs. But to each his own. Urban fighting in Bagdad = AR... mountains of Assganistan= .308.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 6:54:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Variablebinary
You make some good points about the 20" bbl. I to feel that the 5.56 is a short range cartridge. I believe that is is capable of a lot of damage if properly placed at any reasonable range. I will build a 20" bbl'd AR next, but it will most likely be in 6.8 spc or 6.5 grendal. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 8:40:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Sure would be nice if you guys would get back to the original f*cking post
 Variablebinary- some of your data is simply inaccurate. Use the search function here and review the MYRIAD of posts on this subject, IMHO, while the Dissy is definately a bit handier and it looks badass, I think that a 20" is a better choice. I have an M4 which I love to shoot , but if I have to bug out and only take ONE weapon, it's gonna be my A2 20". Works just fine and there don't seem to be many complaints about it putting your opponent down with the right ammo at battlefield distances. JMO YMMV |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 9:27:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Variablebinary is a toad
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Posted: 10/20/2004 9:39:16 PM EDT
[#17]
HardShell, that is one sweet Dissy! I agree too, that the Dissipator is the best looking rifle without a muzzle attachment.
I admit that I DO want a Dissipator rifle, BUT for some reason, I want it in 7.62x39...  I'd have to buy a 20" and have it KKF'ed, but I just really want one.Put that on my list... right after the 18.5" 5.56 varmint killer I'm building now. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 9:46:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Where???? |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 11:21:45 PM EDT
[#19]
 My "Dissipator", which is really a BM 20" 1:7 A2-profile barrel cut down to 16.5" (and port opened to .110") by Kurt at KKF. Nice and light, with no extra gas block and very little heavy profile left on the barrel, but with all the other Dissipator goodness. And, yes, it runs great. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 12:00:50 AM EDT
[#20]
That's what I'm talking about! Very nice.
Quick question: Why do A LOT of people think that a cut down 20" bbl with a .110 gas port is unreliable? Troy have you done any mag dumps with this set up? And have you had ANY malfunctions with this set up DUE to the gas port dimensions? |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 12:14:23 AM EDT
[#21]
I bumpfired 30 rounds of XM193 through it in one long burst...
-Troy |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 6:05:57 AM EDT
[#22]
You know that thing is just begging for a DD 12.0....
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Posted: 10/21/2004 6:16:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Kurt worked on both of my 7.62x39mm uppers (neither of them Dissipators, though) - he does great work! 
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Posted: 10/21/2004 6:33:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Two questions. Who did your stocks, and how do you like the M3 mounted that high up? . |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 7:17:10 AM EDT
[#25]
I bought the furniture here used (off EE), already camo'd & I don't know who did them originally (I've gotten more questions about those stocks  ).I like the M3 in the 1-2 o'clock position - when I mount one directly to the handguards, I usually put it in that same relative position, but a little further forward. I can operate it with the middle finger of my left hand without removing my hand from the forend. |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 10:32:30 AM EDT
[#26]
I prefer my M4Dissy over my M4gery as fas as open iron sights are concerned. The M4 is cool and really fun, but my favorite rifle to shoot is my 20" Govt. profile A2 (with A1 buttstock) . The recoil is light and it balances perfectly in my hands. I am just a better shooter with it. I do believe the M4Dissy is very underated and deserves more credit than it gets. If I had to choose between an A2 M4Dissy and an A2 M4gery, I would choose the A2 M4dissy.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 12:46:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Shut UP, Forest...  -Troy |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 1:15:20 PM EDT
[#28]
It's not. Why would it be any more reliable than any other 16 inch bbl? It has the same gas system, it just has extra crap on the bbl. Mid-lenght gas systems are reported to be more reliable. I haven't had any problems with my 16 inch carbines, and I haven't got my middy yet.
M855, not M193.
+1 |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 1:54:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Anyplace that sells Black Hills ammo. I buy mine from Tommy at Georgia Precision and from Clint at Fulton Armory. Blue Box 75gr OTM is $18 for 50 rounds.
Not by much - and considering most fire fights with rifles take place at under 100M - the 200y capability of 75gr OTM from a 16" carbine is overkill.
They have never matched the MV or maybe the precision (even though a Marine set the top qualification score 2 years ago with a M4); however they OUTPERFORM rifles is a very significant way - they are handier. Lighter and smaller means less fatigue, the ability to carry more ammo, and the ability to use it in smaller spaces.
Hardley - the M16A4 is not nearly as easy to use in CQB work - or when deploying out of vehicles compared to the carbine. For people who only want to shoot with irons the Dissy setup makes alot of sense. The longer sight radius is not only more precise; it's easier to use when your eyes (and the rest of you) start to age. |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 3:17:43 PM EDT
[#30]
I think this thread needs to be tacked. It seems like the same Dissipator vs M4 vs A2 questions come up frequently. Thats why,in true ARFCOM spirt, I have one of each.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 4:39:48 PM EDT
[#31]
LOL you aint the only one. Throw a mid-length in there. |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 5:57:48 PM EDT
[#32]
That thinking gave birth to the 12" XM8. Building any weapon around what is a typical limits the soldiers fighting capability. It's like saying we don’t need air power since Iraq doesn’t have an air force. The M4 has done well in Iraq, but has come up short in Afghanistan. Taliban fighters have gotten smart, taking advantage of the open terrain and mountains; have learned to engage at further distances than the M4 performs best at. Not every small arms exchange should result in a fire mission, air strike, or "hey, anyone got an A4 or M14." Ammo: So I have to pay $18 bucks for 50 rounds of 75gr ammo to make an M4 perform at its best. Let’s see, that's $360 for 1000 rounds. 500 rounds of M193: $109 500 rounds of SS109 $109.5 Cost: $218.5 which is a far easier cost to swallow. Plus more ammo for less (besides wolf) is better, not worse I stagger my ammo, so I can still engage at distance and defeat armor, or fragment at typical combat range. The M4 was made for SF and vehicle crews and that's where it should have stayed, but it's not a combat weapon. Thankfully all we've fought against for the past 40 years is restless natives with AK's that can’t shoot for shit. God forbid we have to fight against an organized army that has their marksman training together. No wonder the Marines are the first to hit the Beach...say it once, say it a thousand times. Every man is a rifleman, and you can’t be a rifleman with a carbine... |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 6:23:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Has anyone here fired a dissi in full-auto mode? Like put one onto a RR or a RLL or a RDIAS? I am not trying to go off topic or get into an auto discussion...just wanted to know how it handled is all
 Wes |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 7:50:48 PM EDT
[#34]
They handle like any other 16" HBAR. I've got some vid of me shooting a Post86 LE gun with my Psuedo-Dissy upper on it, if anyone wants to host it. Bare muzzled gun, no comp or anything. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 7:13:44 AM EDT
[#35]
No the realisitc needs of the soldier in MOUT and deploying from vehicles gave us that 12 barrel - which is poinless for 5.56. But the weapon length is more desirable for soldiers given more and more of the troublespots are in urbanized areas.
Now that is just silly as Air Power does alot more than fight other airplanes.
That is why platoons are issued GPMG and WHY we have CAS capability and Artillery. Rifles have been and will continue to be a small part of the casualties.
First I want to know where you are getting M855 (I'm an American I don't use that effemanent SS109) for the same prices as M193. I think all of us would like to know. Secondly a 16" Carbine with 75gr OTM performs BETTER than a 20" with M193. Better wound profile, more reliable fragmentation, longer fragmentation range, lower flash, and more accuracy. Why would I give up all that for a longer/heavier weapon just because the ammo is a few bucks cheaper? You're life isn't worth the extra $142 per 1000 rounds? (that's only an extra $0.14 per round). You train mostly with the cheap stuff (I use Wolf and PMC alot) with some training with the more expensive ammo (particularly night shoots). But the Go-To ammo is the good stuff. Pistol shooters have been doing this for decades.
?? You have different ammo in the same magazine? How can you engage at distance when you don't know what the next round is. While at close ranges (under 100y) they all pretty much hit to the same point of impact once you get out to 250y there are differences (enough so that you can/will miss a target using cover). What type of 'armor' are you expecting to defeat? All 5.56 rounds can defeat standard (non-ceramic plate) body armor. Are you trying to defeat 'blue helmets' at 600M or something equally silly?
Tell that to the USMC Force Recon.
That's why we have Armor, Artillery, and Air Power.
HeHe you watch too many movies. The 'First' Marines are Force Recon - and guess what they have selecte - yup M4s with Mk262... |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 7:34:00 AM EDT
[#36]
Ammoman.com has Lake City M855 for $219.00 per 1000 and Lake City XM193 for $199.00 per 1000. I just ordered a case of the M855 myself.
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Posted: 10/22/2004 7:39:50 AM EDT
[#37]
I find mine rather heavy too. When I get the funds, I'm going to rebarrel the upper with the 20" Govt Profile barrel (1/7 twist if available). I figure if I'm going to have 2 ARs, might as well have one M4 style with 14.5" barrel (which I already have) and one A2 style with 20" barrel. The Dissapator seems like an answer in search of a question. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 7:44:35 AM EDT
[#38]
Thats why you guys should have got the M4 barrel Dissipator. Very light and pointable. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 8:14:28 AM EDT
[#39]
That is a HELL of a deal if you want M855. Usually M855 runs much closer to $300. Thanks for posting this Jason. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 12:06:30 PM EDT
[#40]
thank you forest for putting variable in his place... his words of ignorance as has been angerying me since i first read them... i felt that the amount of words it would have taken to correct him just wasn't worth my time...
but i thank you kind sir for smacking him
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Posted: 10/22/2004 12:15:41 PM EDT
[#41]
SG has them for $209 per 1000 (that price already includes shipping) if you are a member and uses a prior coupon. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 2:40:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Note carefully that the cheap M855 is listed as "for practice use only", because the ammo manufacturer won't stand behind it being used for duty use (meaning: they know things about that lot of ammo that we don't).
-Troy |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 2:51:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Can you get a complete Dissipator from Bushmaster with an M4 profile barrel? Also, why did they choose to go with the carbine gas system rather than just chop a gov or HBAR barrel down to length and expand the gas port.?
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Posted: 10/22/2004 3:07:44 PM EDT
[#44]
When I got my Dissy they weren't making it in an M4 profile. I have toyed with the idea of having it fluted and/or otherwise lightened. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 3:10:04 PM EDT
[#45]
It is generally considered to be more difficult to "tune" the rifle length gas system when the barrel is cut down. At very least the gas port has to be opened up to a bigger hole to allow more gas into the gas tube in order to get the action to cycle. Generally you'll wind up with a 16.5" barrel as opposed to a 16" when you go with the rifle length gas system. Not that .5" really matters to most people, but I guess it might to some. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 3:36:27 PM EDT
[#46]
  Here is my preban dissy I also have another postban with a ACE stock and a BMAS system on it. The one in the picture has a fluted barrel and a Vortex Flash Hider. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 3:47:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Bushmaster Dissipator w/ M4 profile bbl and A2 flash suppressor, 6-position M4 stock, JP single-stage trigger, and Hogue rubber grip- LOVE IT!
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Posted: 10/22/2004 3:50:42 PM EDT
[#48]
That is a sweet rifle. Too many optics for me, but sweet nontheless.
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Posted: 10/22/2004 5:11:28 PM EDT
[#49]
Call them. I think they still list the bbl on their site, and I understand if you buy the parts from them, they'll build the upper for you. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 5:28:56 PM EDT
[#50]
This from a person that could only muster toad as an insult. Sounds about on par with what a pre-schooler could muster. I'll let the guys who actually depend on these rifles to stay alive speak for themselves.  Find the issue and read it, as well as the numerous other publications as to why the M4 has come up short...no pun intended There are tons of papers from NSWC Crane on M855 performance out of the M4A1. If I may quote "M855 does not consistently do well against thin, non -armored threats at close range when fired from the M4A1 carbine". M855 is what the Military issues as standard, unlike a handful of units that recieve MK 262 Mod 0. The Marines call the M4 an injustice compared to the M16A4. Nothing any person says here can override the opinion of those whose sole business is combat and defending this country. Another intesting read: www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=10687&archive=true |
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