Embarrised at the range, ar15 not whats its cracked up to be! - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Embarrised at the range, ar15 not whats its cracked up to be! (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 4/10/2006 9:53:49 PM EDT

[#1]

seriously, stop using wolf ammo, bc i used it too but since i stopped i haven't had any problems!

Posted: 4/11/2006 2:54:23 AM EDT

[#2]

Most replies have been good and one is likely the culprit

start with the ammo

then magazine

then extractor

then the gas key

........or in reverse

Don't let the bullies bother you, commando. Hearing about your issues with a low cost AR15 is a way of rationalizing our multi-thousand dollar rigs.

On a serious note......there is a lesson here.

I am not sure I would rely on an AR set up like that for my home defense weapon, when history has shown it may work..............and then again, it may not

Posted: 4/11/2006 3:58:01 AM EDT

[#3]

The O ring goes around the extractor spring. The link (posted earlier) shows the o rings, but not where they go. Remove your extractor from the bolt. Plop on the o ring, around the extractor spring and reassemble.

This might not be the solution to your problem (ammo), but it should increase the reliablilty in general.

Does Del-ton sell whole guns as well? Anyway, most of the uppers are assembled right? Assembling the kit yourself shouldn't have much to do with reliablilty. Quality of product is another story and so far I've heard good things about them.

If you don't have a chamber brush, get one. Clean out the gunk from shooting Wolf and try again.

It's a little more expensive, but I shoot M855 Lake City. I got a box of 1000 (loose) for around $160. Zero failures as of yet and decent accuracy. Caution though as some ranges don't allow steel core ammo.

Posted: 4/11/2006 4:10:02 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Well sorry to whoever I offended. When I was reading about them on the build board alot of people spoke highly of there kits.

Sooo true. Seem like we are getting two different opinions about Del-Tone. In the "Build It Yourself" section they are highly recomended. In this thread they are not sounding so good.

I was thinking of getting a Del Tone kit so I find this thread very interesting. It has given me pause.

Posted: 4/11/2006 4:15:40 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
So I have a delton 16inch kit on a dpms lower. Less than 7-800 rounds through it. Wolf ammo. Me and my roommate fired off about 200 trouble free rounds at the range, then at her last turn trouble struck. After she would fire the first round the gun would fail to pull out the spent round and it would start to shove in the next round. Saying these rounds where stuck was an understatement. I had to shove a cleaning rod down there and pound pretty hard on the handle of it to get the round out. I thought everyone said these rifles were soo great and how everyones run flawless. Im starting to think its an under statement. I clean it after every use oil it ect and I hear people on here "yup 900 rounds havent cleaned it yet, runs great". Im starting to think I should of bought an ak. I did some searching and came up with this in one thread " #1 The (weak) extractor spring allows the extractor to jump over the rim of the cartridge and the bolt carrier continues rearward, grabbing the next round and causing the classic "fired case in chamber, live round behind it" FTE." It came from a mod on here I guess? Though it sums up my problem. Some guy at the rang esaid ar's are famous for barrel burrs? I dont know what that means but maybe I havent been around to have heard of it. So my question is do I buy a new extractor spring even though mines practically new or go to get a practically new barrel de-burred?

My AR runs fine, then again, I've never tried Wolf ammo. Seriously, reliability varies from gun to gun. And don't even kid yourselves that AK's wouldn't have problems either. My WASR 10 has failed me about ten times through the course of 2000 rounds. Thats unnacceptable. My new AR has had over 750 rounds through it, not a single failure. Ever. The same zero failure rate applies to my old one, which has had over 2000 through it, many times without cleaning in between for weeks until the next range visit.

Posted: 4/11/2006 4:28:14 AM EDT

[#6]

If the chamber is non-chrome, I would try this:

Go to walmart, get some flitz polish, a .410 shotgun bore mop, and a section of cleaing rod to fit teh boremop. Spread some flitz on the boremop, and polish the chamber a bit. This will polish out any minor machine marks, open it up just a tiny bit, and help extraction

Go to the wolff gunspring website and get some plus power extractor srpings. A 3 pack is like 9 dollars. Install those with your old spring insert. Wolff's website says you have to have colt black inserts, but I use the blue ones and have 0 problems.

After the chamber polish, spray out the chamber good with brake cleaner. Then put some clp on a chamber brush and scrub the hell out of your chamber. Follow up with a few dry patches.

Your issues should be resolved. HTH, YMMV.

Coy

Posted: 4/11/2006 5:05:58 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
I am fairly certain that you should have bought an AK.

Bob

+1

Posted: 4/11/2006 5:10:10 AM EDT

[#8]

You are using tier 3 AR manufacturers and the lowest grade of ammo on the planet. You are also most likely using USA mags and have not properly lubed your AR.

Quality in and quality out.

Posted: 4/11/2006 5:16:36 AM EDT

[#9]

most ar's dont like the steel cased ammo.

Posted: 4/11/2006 5:26:45 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
most.223 chambered ar's don't like the steel cased ammo.

fixed it.

I suspect that the rifle may be a .223 chamber instead of a 5.56 chamber. the tighter chamber in combination of the dirtier ammo may lead to extraction problems.

Don't worry about the rifle. If YOUR rifle does not like Wolf, there is plenty of other brands of ammo. Be mindful about the chamber size, shooting 5.56 ammo in a .223 chamber "may" lead to other issues.

I can only speak for myself, I had a Model1 upper with a .223 chamber and I had major issues shooting the South African 5.56, always ripping the rim off of the shell due to being stuck in the chamber.

I now only own 5.56 chrome Chambers (Bushmaster, Colt) and I don't have any ammo problems anymore.
I have used over 18K of Wolf in my M4 and can only say I had 3 stuck shells in that entire lot. Nothing a new extractor/extractor spring did not fix. I keep tabs on the M4 with Wolf because I am kinda doing a torture test to see the effects of steel cases in a rifle. I don't track the other 2 ARs I own.

good luck and shoot it up!

ETA for spell check

Posted: 4/11/2006 5:34:21 AM EDT

[#11]

On a related note I bought a rebuilt Ford Pinto and put a Citroen 4 cylinder in it. I filled up on some waste oil and went to the track. For some reason I can't seem to get the thing to run right. Any ideas?
Sounds like you got a frankengun and in the preceeding 7-800 rounds you have not had a prob. But now you have a hiccup and it's junk.
Just what kind of PMCS are you running? Sounds like you might have a funky chamber since you are having malfs fairly late. If it was the rifle you probably would have seen issues before now. Your round count is low (but not unheard of) to have probs with the extractor. Although with the questionable lineage, you might have gotten junk parts in the first place.
Clean IAW the -10 using the right tools and solvents, and then try some decent ammo.
If that doesn't work or PMCS is just something that you don't see a need for buy an AK and shoot all the Wolf you want.

Posted: 4/11/2006 5:39:00 AM EDT

[#12]

Too much oil. You burned the oil in the chamber and made glue.

Posted: 4/11/2006 5:47:14 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
So I have a delton 16inch kit on a dpms lower. Less than 7-800 rounds through it. Wolf ammo. Me and my roommate fired off about 200 trouble free rounds at the range, then at her last turn trouble struck. After she would fire the first round the gun would fail to pull out the spent round and it would start to shove in the next round. Saying these rounds where stuck was an understatement. I had to shove a cleaning rod down there and pound pretty hard on the handle of it to get the round out. I thought everyone said these rifles were soo great and how everyones run flawless. Im starting to think its an under statement. I clean it after every use oil it ect and I hear people on here "yup 900 rounds havent cleaned it yet, runs great". Im starting to think I should of bought an ak. I did some searching and came up with this in one thread " #1 The (weak) extractor spring allows the extractor to jump over the rim of the cartridge and the bolt carrier continues rearward, grabbing the next round and causing the classic "fired case in chamber, live round behind it" FTE." It came from a mod on here I guess? Though it sums up my problem. Some guy at the rang esaid ar's are famous for barrel burrs? I dont know what that means but maybe I havent been around to have heard of it. So my question is do I buy a new extractor spring even though mines practically new or go to get a practically new barrel de-burred?

Your problem isn't a weak extractor spring. Sounds to me like you've got out of spec ammo, a tight chamber, or a bunch of crap built up in the chamber keeping the round from extracting. If you've got a burr in your chamber, it would've happened from the start...unless you did something to cause the burr after the 200 rounds you shot.

Get an AK. None of those things will matter.

Posted: 4/11/2006 6:03:57 AM EDT

[#14]

Wolf + non chrome lined chamber = your troubles. Easier to change the ammo than the chamber.

Posted: 4/11/2006 6:10:16 AM EDT

[#15]

I had the same problem once. It was a buffer spring/ buffer problem. Not an extractor problem.

Good luck.

If you want to get rid of that del-ton, I am sure plenty people here would take it.

Posted: 4/11/2006 6:21:06 AM EDT

[#16]

$20 D-fender ring. Problem solved. Shoot all the wolf you want.

Posted: 4/11/2006 6:55:12 AM EDT

[#17]

ARs are GREAT but if you want a rifle that NEVER fails get a good AK SKS

Fixed this small issue.

If you want a weapon you can treat like crap, that eats the worst ammo available, seldom fails, and maybe hits the broad side of a barn, go for the commie guns. I've seen AKs that were humongous pieces of crap, but by and large they will go bang when you pull the trigger under the crappiest of conditions. In my limited experience with them, however, a good SKS is the most durable and dependable (under crappy circumstances) I've ever seen. Totally outdated as a combat weapon, but damned reliable and tolerant of crappy ammo.

The AR (my opinion, worth what you paid for it) is more of a precision tool. As such, it can be a little more finiky.

Both the AK and AR are effective, but reflect slightly different approaches. Me? I love my AR. I feed it quality food as often as I can and clean it afterward. As a result, it has been very reliable and when it doesn't shoot tight groups I can blame myself instead of the gear.

Posted: 4/11/2006 7:52:23 AM EDT

[#18]

When you buy or put together a "Parts Rifle", nothing is guaranteed. On most occassions, there's going to be a problem with the majority of the rifles.

I don't have a problem with people building their own rifles by using different manufacturers, I think it's an awesome thing to do. But they're not as guaranteed as a factory brand rifle (All same brand).

I'm just tossing things out for you to consider, because AR-15's are much MUCH more than what you think they are.

Think about your situation and about what you might've done wrong... Your weapon wasn't ejecting spent casings... Well, how good are your mags? Are the springs too tight?

Do you have any other kinds of different brand parts in your rifle? Just because a part in your rifle isn't working properly, doesn't mean the whole system is flawed.

Also, wolf ammunition. 'Nuff said. Some weapons fire it, some don't. IMO, it sucks ass and I would never use it.

Every brand and every weapon will have some type of industry flaw, but does that mean that everything's bad? No.

You know........ You could always stick to paintball and airsoft.... It's pretty cheap to repair those you know.

Posted: 4/11/2006 8:08:34 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
.... I thought everyone said these rifles were soo great and how everyones run flawless. ...

So you buy 2nd rate parts, and use 3rd rate ammo and you expect Colt performance with issue ammo?

They never learn.

Posted: 4/11/2006 8:43:04 AM EDT

[#20]

Download manual to instruct you in proper cleaning proceedures. Get some decent ammo. Go to the ammo forum and learn.

Wolf some rifles shoot it, others don't -- right now your's don't!

You will have it humming along in no time. If you don't want to have to clean it, sell it and buy an SKS!

Posted: 4/11/2006 8:44:51 AM EDT

[#21]

Again I repeat my mantra: 2 years mandatory military service for all young men and women right out of high school would take care of this and a host of other issues with our youth today.

Posted: 4/11/2006 8:57:51 AM EDT

[#22]

I shot my dads SP1 this weekend and in a 30rd mag of wolf it jammed 6 times. Used mil reloads and it never skipped a beat. Probably the ammo you are running

Posted: 4/11/2006 8:59:51 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
If the chamber is non-chrome, I would try this:

Go to walmart, get some flitz polish, a .410 shotgun bore mop, and a section of cleaing rod to fit the boremop. Spread some flitz on the boremop, and polish the chamber a bit. This will polish out any minor machine marks, open it up just a tiny bit, and help extraction

Go to the wolff gunspring website and get some plus power extractor srpings. A 3 pack is like 9 dollars. Install those with your old spring insert. Wolff's website says you have to have colt black inserts, but I use the blue ones and have 0 problems.

After the chamber polish, spray out the chamber good with brake cleaner. Then put some clp on a chamber brush and scrub the hell out of your chamber. Follow up with a few dry patches.

Your issues should be resolved. HTH, YMMV.

Coy

I think this is really good advice. You should try this inexpensive fix and see what happens, also make sure the gas key is tight and clean the entire gun, then try again at the range with a few different brands of ammo.

Posted: 4/11/2006 10:46:31 AM EDT

[#24]

god damn AR's.....

Posted: 4/11/2006 10:55:54 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Stuck cases are a common (though not universal) problem with Wolf in AR15s. If you look closely, you may find that the rim was actually ripped off the case by the extractor. Before you spend a penny on "fixing" your rifle, I suggest you thoroughly clean the chamber and then buy a couple of hundred rounds of WalMart Winchester White Box ammo and test fire again.

I have owned 5 different AR uppers from 5 different manufacturers with very different barrels and ALL OF THEM have suffered this kind of stopage with Wolf ammo. Don't let anyone here tell you your rifle is faulty just because it won't shoot Wolf.

I agree with Blagga here, if ytou want to keep shooting wolff, no sweat....but you need to REALLY clean that chamber...

get a good chamber brush and some acetone to help disolve some of the crap in there and brush brush brush and flush flush flush...then give it a shot

Since you had MANY trouble free rounds before your issue, I am putting my money on the fact that a clean chamber will be your ticket to life long happiness!!!

Posted: 4/11/2006 5:11:29 PM EDT

[#26]

So I have a delton 16inch kit on a dpms lower.

Not to be too harsh on Del-Ton or DPMS, but if you want something you can shoot a lot without cleaning and can't afford a better AR, you probably SHOULD have gotten an AK. The bad rap that modern AR's have can probably be blamed mostly on kit builds. For $700 you can get a nice AK (Vector Arms, Arsenal, etc), mags, and a case of ammo.

Make sure you at least have an extractor insert (little blue or black thingy inside the extractor spring), try adding a D-fender or O-ring, and make sure you have a chamber brush and use it.

Lastly, going by my own observations Wolf and other steel cased stuff is a little more likely to get stuck in the chamber than other ammo; it's the price you pay for affordable plinking ammo.

Posted: 4/13/2006 1:53:36 PM EDT

[#27]

Well I had some time after class to hit the range. I did what you guys recamended. First I spent 45 minutes recleaning the rifles. So it had been cleaned before this trip. I took 40 rounds of wolf and 40 rounds of winchester to the range. I first fired off 20 of wolf from a different box then the last batch and had one FTE. Shoot off the 20 of the winchester brass and it went flawless. I then shot off the last 20 wolf and got one more FTE. Then shot off the last 20 winchester and again it went flawless. I spent 45 more minutes scrubbing that gun down when I got home. After today I have just one thing to say, I never would of known ammo brand for brand or the type of casing could matter so much! Im going shoot up the rest of this wolf then its nothing but brass from here on out. Thanks for everyones help.

Posted: 4/13/2006 2:32:39 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Well I had some time after class to hit the range. I did what you guys recamended. First I spent 45 minutes recleaning the rifles. So it had been cleaned before this trip. I took 40 rounds of wolf and 40 rounds of winchester to the range. I first fired off 20 of wolf from a different box then the last batch and had one FTE. Shoot off the 20 of the winchester brass and it went flawless. I then shot off the last 20 wolf and got one more FTE. Then shot off the last 20 winchester and again it went flawless. I spent 45 more minutes scrubbing that gun down when I got home. After today I have just one thing to say, I never would of known ammo brand for brand or the type of casing could matter so much! Im going shoot up the rest of this wolf then its nothing but brass from here on out. Thanks for everyones help.

Quality ammo and magazines are key for correct function.

Shoot Wolf if you prefer, just don't blame the rifle for malfunctions.
If it malfunctions with Q3131A or LC XM193, then there may be a problem, but with Wolf, not a big deal.

A clean and well lubricated rifle will also help when shooting lesser quality ammo, but only to a point.
Wolf is notorious for not having enough oomph to get the bolt all the way back, which can cause FTEs.
It's especially a problem on the BM XM17S Bullpup, which has stiff springs.

Sounds like you have a good rifle after all, and have learned a valuable lesson.

Posted: 4/13/2006 3:06:40 PM EDT

[#29]

+1 with _DR, sounds like this post ended up helping you and I am glad. We need to keep as many folks as we can in the shooting sports.

To those who suggest AK`s you in the wrong forum and your not doing him a favor by discouraging proper cleaning with any weapon.

Posted: 4/13/2006 3:26:32 PM EDT

[#30]

I know I should read every post before replying but, ...I've had this issue myself. Thanks to Tweek and the good folks here at ARFCOM I was able to find the issue of my FTEx.

I bought a chamber brush and scrubbed the piss outta it with brake cleaner and then CLP.

After that I replaced the extractor, extractor spring, installed the BLACK extractor spring insert, and for good measure the o-ring (DFender) around the extractor spring.
(Mine was an older model kit that never even had an extractor spring insert initially)

I think the issues I was having were:
1. Dirty chamber (after some horrible Malaysian surplus shooting)
2. Weak extractor spring/ assembly
The whole shot took me about an hour and less than $20 to correct.

I hope it helps... and if I've duped this info (sorry guys).

Respectfully,
Automatic

Posted: 4/13/2006 4:12:01 PM EDT

[#31]

wolf ammo huh?

Posted: 4/14/2006 2:14:16 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quality ammo and magazines are key for correct function.

Shoot Wolf if you prefer, just don't blame the rifle for malfunctions.
If it malfunctions with Q3131A or LC XM193, then there may be a problem, but with Wolf, not a big deal.

I would not consider Wolf to be of bad quality in general, just different. I consider S&B .357 to be good quality ammo but it will cycle a Desert Eagle reliably. I agree that there are some weapons that operate better with different ammo, but if a AR malfunctions with it, there may be an issue with the rifle as generally AR's function well with Wolf. Full auto M16's on the other hand don't seem as tolerant to it. Personally, I am like others in the fact that Wolf cycles fine and reliably in my rifles. The biggest beef I have with Wolf is the accuracy compared to more expensive commercial ammo. With Wolf, it is the cheapest plinking ammo available and accuracy expectations should be in perspective.

Posted: 4/14/2006 3:27:57 AM EDT

[#33]

My Bushmaster AR does the same thing on Wolf Ammo, I can shoot literally a 1000 rounds of blackhill ammo without a single issue, wolf maybe 100 then they start to jam in the barrel.