Skyyr,

You obviously have not used a Dr Optic equipped ACOG and an Elcan Specter.  Anyone who has can clearly see why the Specter is the better optic.  Yes the ARMS mounts suck.  Most of the other things you have discussed as negatives are either non issues or resolved in the second generation production run.  I dont come on this site much anymore because of people like you regurgitating bad inferences based off of someone elses observations... therefore you cant be reasoned with and there is no information to glean from someone like you... it makes this site tedious since you cant even be convinced otherwsie since you dont know what you are talking about inthe first place.

Height over bore on the ACOG/Dr optic sucks.  Sitting in low light looking into bright light with either the Dr Optic or ACOG sucks but more so with the Dr Optic.  The Dr Optic has HORRRIBLE fishbowl effect compared to the Eclan at 1X.  The 1X lever on the Elcan is super fast , simple, and easy to use. Its red dot is WAY superior.  At 4X the ACOG and Elcan are esstially a toss up.  The Elcan has a better exit pupil eye relief trade off for me than a 31 but thats a minor concern and just preference.

Rest assured though... the Elcan is a better all around set up.  The mounts make it a no go for me and the fact I cannot justify it for a work purchase due to state law.

Hi.  I am a police officer and I just bought a Specter DR for my work AR15.  It should be here in a few days.  Regarding the ARMS mounts.  I was told ARMS in the next few months is coming out with new levers similar to Larue.  They will be adjustable so you will be able to adjust the tension when you mount it to your rail.  My Specter, once on and zeroed in, will not be taken on and off so I am not worried about some of the negative comments.  I found it for $1695 shipped.  I'll post again when it arrives and it is mounted.

You made a very good choice.  Not a bad price, either.

We were isued these things about  years ago as part of sopmod block 2. Most experienced shooters preferred the eotech for close-in work, or for missions likely requiring longer engagements the ACOG. Between the ARMS mount and the bulkiness, the elcan is generally less desirable. Also, most guys that tried them during an intense 5 week CQB trainup soon switched them out for their eotechs. The method most guys use is to consider their mission, what type of engagements and distances they EXPECT to be encountering, and plan accordingly. Also, having optics pre-zerod and in Larue mounts, and stowed in your ruck, adds to flexibility in the field should the mission change.

Ok I received my Specter DR sight today and it's very nice.  This sight will be replacing my Aimpoint M4s w/Larue mount and the Aimpoint 3X w/Larue mount.  Here is what I noticed so far.  The Dr looks very sturdy and well made.  The ARMS mount seems to work fine on my AR15 and is nice and tight without any movement.  The DR is about 6" long.  The M4s and 3X is about 9 1/2" long.  The M4s by it's self is about 5" long.  I think the tube on the M4s is 30mm and the DR is 32mm.  When I mounted the DR on my AR it is not any higher then when the M4s was mounted on it.  The glass on The DR is very clear.  The cross hairs and red dot are easy to adjust, see, and use.  ARMS is also coming out with an adjustable lever like on the Larue so even if over time the levers do start to loosen I'll switch them out to the new adjustable levers.  Switching from 4x to 1x was easy and very positive going either direction.  That's what I have so far.  I'm going to the range in the morning to shoot and zero.  I'll let everyone know how it goes.

I just bought a SpecterDR the other day as well, and threw it on my XCR. It's amazing - and best of all...MADE IN CANADA

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb4/mezz0italiano/IMG_5282.jpg

Ok.  I spent some time on the range today with my Specter DR.  First I sighted in my iron sights as my department requires them on the AR even with optics.  Next I mounted the DR.  The first thing I noticed was the cross hairs are very clear and easy to see w/o even turning the sight on.  That is good because it tells me that in the daytime I don't need to waste my battery.  I did turn it on and the red dot is very visible and bright even in the day light.  I sighted it in at 50 yards, again a department policy.  On 4x I had no problem putting 3 rounds in the X and you could cover them with a nickel. I switched to 1x.  The group was a little bigger but all in the 1 1/2 inch circle.  I switched back to 4x and again in the X ring.  I did not have time to push it like I wanted to so next week I'll go back and play with it some more.  So far I am very happy with the performance of the Specter DR.  I'll keep you posted.  If this keeps up it looks like I'll be getting rid of my Aimpoint M4s with the LaRue mount and the 3x magnifier also with the laRue mount.  Both are new so I think I'm gonna loose a little money.  Anyway that's a different story.  Take care and stay safe.....

What type of scope cover, or lens cap, do you  plan to use on your Elcan while the rifle is in your patrol vehicle?  I haven't seen any lens cap and the only cover I can find is the scopecoat.  I have a Elcan on a FAL, but would like something to protect it.  Although, mine for the most part just sits in the safe.

I got a scopecoat for mine.

The SOCOM units have lens covers for them but I do not know if they fit the non-SOCOM units as the bodies are a little different.

Try this.  
http://www.mwgco.com/ar-15_accessories/product/ATI-OSC-SDR-X.html

I've used both the ELCAN and the ACOG/MRD combination, and love them both.  IMHO, they've got similar applications and can be used to more or less solve the same problems - in my case, a general purpose rifle sight for use between 0 - 500m.  I don't consider either a dedicated, nor the best solution for either precision shooting or CQB, however, I am neither sniper nor door kicker.  One way or another, you need to decide what problem you're looking to solve before you try to figure out how you're going to solve it, so, as it goes, these are my conclusions and mine alone.  Needless to say, I'm just a regular fella, I do nothing special, and am very high drag low speed.  I just happen to like my toys.    

Nevertheless, I have run, for a while now, a TA01NSN with a piggy-backed Trijicon Red Dot combination as my primary and preferred optic setup, however, I currently run an ELCAN Specter DR with a piggybacked Doc Optic, and absolutely love it, and I think it is one of the best optics packages I have ever used.  A couple of thoughts:

First - I was hesitant at first to pick up the ELCAN, as has been discussed, the ARMS mount does not have the best reputation, nor does the optic itself have a spotless reputation with regards to the external adjustment system, as well as POI/POA shift when moving between 1x and 4x.  Several people who have otherwise reliable opinions have not said kind things about them.  Nevertheless, faced with a particular set of requirements, the ELCAN appeared to offer a great deal to me in terms of abilities, and I was very curious to see for myself if the ELCAN could make good on those promises.  Unfortunately, the ELCAN has an extremely high cost of entry which discourages a lot of folks from giving it a try in light of the spotty reputation with several respected sources.  I was lucky in and that I was able to borrow a demo model for a few weeks from a dealer before ever having to put any money down on the optic, and I was suitably impressed to be willing to give it a try and purchase one.  

One thing I noted when researching the optic was that the vast majority of the most scathing negative comments was that they were all somewhat old, and at least all of the well respected names were the type that would have had early access to the ELCAN, before many even knew what the Specter DR was.  However, since then, the Specter DR has gone through some revisions, some of which were designed to directly address the shortcomings identified by early users who may or may not have lost confidence before the design was fully matured.  I am currently using a Gen III Specter, and I was willing to take the gamble that the biggest problems have been addressed or at least improved since the early optics were first fielded.  Regarding the mount, while the ARMS mount is advertised as a QD mount, I found that QD is not a capability I find terribly necessary in an optic, to the point where I traded or sold away my LaRue ACOG mounts, not because there was anything wrong with them, but because I did not need a QD mount.  I tend to install an optic, zero it, and keep it there whenever possible, so I'm not, I suppose, as concerned with the ARMS mount wearing out very quickly at all.  Over the course of a year, I do not believe I removed my ACOG more than five times from my upper receiver.  

So, with that said, what am I looking for?

- Durability: the optic should be able to survive anything rifle can

- Magnification, at least 3x, 4x preferred: for target identification and scanning over distances

- Optical Clarity: given the harsh conditions a rifle optic can be expected to encounter (rain, mud, dust, ect.) a good starting point is critical, because the lenses are going to get dirty, this is a fact, and bad glass will only make it worse

- Crosshairs reticule with BDC: since using the TA01NSN ACOG, I've fallen in love with the reticule, it's intuitive for me to use, and give secondary ranging capabilities

- Ability to be used without batteries: these days, with the emphasis put on PID, I'm most concerned with my optic being an effective day sight without the use of batteries, at night, under most circumstances, you should be using some sort of night optic technology, whether it's IR laser and NVGs, or thermals, or whatever

- Wide field of view: I need my optic to pull secondary duty as a scanning device

Both optics meet all those criteria, and most are relatively familiar with the ACOG, so I won't belabor the point by giving a point by point comparison.  I would like to point out a couple of things about the ELCAN, though.  

I've heard a lot of people complain about the throw between 1x and 4x on the ELCAN, versus the gradual twist on most variable power scopes.  I guess I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, though, I find the throw lever very intuitive to use, and I suspect that anyone from a mechanized background will find it to be as well.  If you've spent some time in the gunner's station of an Abrams or a Bradley, you will find yourself at home with your eye behind the ELCAN, you can utilize the same scanning techniques, and flipping between high power and low power as you would on one of those vehicles.  I realize that it's not the "traditional rifleman's technique" of using a variable power scope, and thus may be odd and uncomfortable to some, but I see that as a difference in training styles, and one that can be overcome.  The ELCAN does have a noticeably narrower field of view than the ACOG, however IMHO the ability to jump back and forth between high power and low power when scanning makes up for this.  Furthermore, the ELCAN also offers more forgiving eye relief, though eye relief has never been a problem for me with the 4x32 ACOG.    

The main advantage of the ELCAN over the ACOG is the 1x setting which allows the optic to be used as an effective close quarters optic, it may not be as optimized to the role as an Aimpoint or EOTech, however it is leaps and bounds over what a 4x32 ACOG offers you in the CCO category.  Also, the ability to manually adjust the illumination, both of the crosshairs and of the red dot offer an advantage over the ACOG.  In practice, the ELCAN can be kept on the 1x setting, and either flipped back and forth while scanning, or flipped to 4x to engage targets at distances (distance = time).    

For me, the use of an MRD is more as an emergency sight than as a CCO, MRDs have the advantage of being always on, and piggybacked, catch your eye quickly, and do not require you to bother with cheek to stock weld, which is an advantage given that both the ACOG and ELCAN are more or less considered to be NTCH optics.  I zero mine for 10 - 15m, a range which allows you to put rapid, effective rounds on target when surprise engagements pop up.  Even with the ELCAN, the MRD serves this function despite the 1x function, and is a requirement that I settled on after hiking in the mountains with nothing but an ACOG at night and realizing that in a surprise engagement, I had better have a quick "heads up" option to put rounds on target.  

At this point, the ELCAN has proven its worth to me in terms of what it is capable of new, the only thing that is left to be seen is its long term durability, and to that end, my trusty old TA01NSN/TRD combo is waiting in the wings, already zeroed, ready to jump in should I prove to be foolish in ignoring the warnings of those who have come before me.  I say this not because I think that the ELCAN will let me down, but only because I believe you can never be over-prepared.  So far, the ELCAN has been carried, dropped, bumped, and most importantly shot with, both in individual and collective tasks and has not disappointed me yet.  Needless to say, I will share my experiences whatever they are as they come on down the line, but I feel that the ELCAN is an excellent optic choice, and I have no reservations about relying on it.  





~Augee

I love ACOG's, but you're freaking nuts if you think they're as fast a 1X red dot. The DR just happens to be both.

Also, aren't you the Trificon employee who turned that board member in to the feds for unknowingly buying a stolen ACOG off ebay? If you work for Trijicon, I think it only fair that you mention that when you shit on a competing company's product. JMO.

Ahh, you may want to think before speaking from now on.  A) I didn't turn anyone in, don't even know what you are referring to B) I never made any mention to 1X cpabilities of either optic in this thread C) Was I not correct in my statement that the ACOG is as tough (or tougher) than an Elcan and D) I am not correct in my statement that ARMS levers are not as robust as LaRues?  

Please, go back and read my comment and then read your comment.  I do not believe I shit on any competing product

JMO of course

Cool.

I see they also list this -

http://www.mwgco.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=mwg&Product_Code=ATI-ARD-SDR-X&Category_Code=

Has anyone seen a flashkill that threads into the existing threads on the body of the optic?

Yep, I have the bikini covers and the ARD for mine.

I have the scopecoat and bikini covers for mine.  I want to protect my investment. :)

By this I mean something thin that screws into the front and doesn't stick out like the one pictured.

I the civilian world I am not concerned with flash off the optic as much as I would like something there to protect the front lens.

A couple of weeks ago I squirted a liberal amount of oil around the base of the illumination knob and worked the knob back and forth multiple times.

I have been working it every once in a while and it seems to have loosened up some. I wouldn't say that it feels great now, but it is a shitload better.

The one that sticks out is the only one that I have seen. The threads are too coarse for a direct use of an Aimpoint ARD I'm pretty sure, but maybe something could be rigged up? The sticking out doesn't effect me though. Pretty much the same as an ACOG w/ ARD.

I don't mind the stiffness of the actual lumination knob, but the battery cover is a major PITA to get open. Still on the battery that shipped with it, so it isn't a huge deal. But definitely not something you are going to change in a hurry.

Where did you find it for $1695 shipped?

Tactical Coordination in AZ.  Call Mike at 602-909-8555.

Got it thanks.

I like more of a "stealthy" look.


God help you if you ever had to change it in the field and did not have any tools with you.