FOREST FOREST!!!

COMBAT JACK

in the Black Book M16/AR15

They show M855 and M193 wound picture

Looks the same to me?  IN THE BLACK BOOK??

But I do think the 55 BTFMJ should frag a bit better


If you dont like the 5.56mm thats fine !  just go over to the other forum! ak or AR10


We all seen and Know of Poachers Killing Deer with 1 shot from a 22 long Rifle!

KISS

Again, agreed. The system is most effective 200 yards and under regardless of ammo and barrel length.

I guess it depends on what "medium and long" ranges are to you. Where I live, 200 yards isn't crap! I'm typing this less than 50 miles from where Billy Dixon made his 1,500 yard shot. You can shoot alot further-if your rifle will allow it. There are literally places here where you can see for many miles in any direction. The .308 is really the bottom of the barrel, a starting point in this country!

Quoted: .. They show M855 and M193 wound picture Looks the same to me? .

IIRC M855 could actually fragment up to 10% more than M193.  However the construction of the SS109 projectile is more complex and there has been a wide variety in the results seen (Luke Haag in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001)).  With M855 it seems you roll your dice and takes your chances.

I did not know that!!  Thanks Forest!

Forest is dead on. 55gr is more consistent, but on the whole the fragmentation patterns look almost identical--this per my War Surgery Handbook and Roberts/Fackler.

Some tests have experienced a rate of up to 25% of M855 failing to fragment altogether at shorter distances.

Forest does have good info!

Back when I join the forum and read the Black Book I stated  they were the  same!

And boy did I get jump on!

something that was not mentioned is the tendency for 308 to overpenetrate- for defensive use in the USA by a civilian that is very bad and should be avoided at all costs. This is one of the reasons police agencies in the U.S. are adopting ar's like crazy but not 308's. Also as I tell my soldiers when I instruct them- rifle fights take place at pistol range, pistol fights take place at knife range. sure there will always be the 1% long range stuff, but it is better to plan and train for the close range scenarios that predominate defensive firearm use both in the military (I'm an OIF 3 vet) and civilian worlds

Quoted: Forest is dead on. 55gr is more consistent, but on the whole the fragmentation patterns look almost identical--this per my War Surgery Handbook and Roberts/Fackler. Some tests have experienced a rate of up to 25% of M855 failing to fragment altogether at shorter distances.

M193 also has a failure rate of about 25%. As an example, Fackler himself describes a GI shooting himself in the thigh  (accident) with M193. Bullet went in and out, "ice pick wound", and the guy was good to go 3 days later.

Interesting. I knew that M193 had similar issues, but not that the rate was so high.

A NASA Space Shuttle Door Gunner(SSDG) Super ninja once told me they shoot 5.56 and so should I !


If its good enough  for NASA its good enough  for me !



Invisiblesoul

I have used both 5.56, and 7.62 on Deer, and hogs. Both hit with authority. The 5.56 seems to stun them more so than the 7.62. My Big sow I hit in the sholder with .308 actualy tried to run, but her rear legs did not work. Nothing I have hit with a 5.56 has taken more than two steps before it fell over twitching. Shot placement, is key, and I can shoot faster and mor accuratly with the AR.

For those folks who think the 55 gr M193 FMJ is a great 5.56 mm load for self-defense, the following quote was written by Dr. Martin Fackler, the man who has done more research on the M193 than anyone else on this planet:

“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

Quoted: If you want an inexpensive 150 meter killing implement, try an SKS. It has much better ergonomics  and accuracy than an AK and the ammo is about 1/2 the price/round of 5.56mm. On the other hand, I have been shot at countless times with a 7.62X39 with no effect. (God, it feels great to be able to say that!) I know of many VC and NVA who cannot say the same thing after a well placed 5.56 mm. The 5.56mm is ammo is easier to carry than the 7.62X39, so if you're not such a good shot, you get more bangs to the pound!

I like the old SKS.  It's like the semi-auto counterpart to a Winchester 94.  They're both inexpensive, tough as nails, utterly dependable, lacking in accuracy, and mediocre in range and power.  Good utility guns, not high performance.  If you wanted a rifle you could toss in the back of your truck and let rattle around with the crowbar and post-hole diggers, and not worry about it getting skinned up, or dirty, or rusty, or stolen -- then an SKS is a good choice.  (It was a better choice back in the 1980s, when used ones were selling for $80 each.)

It's not in the same class as an AR-15, either in price or performance.

As for the whole AR-10 versus AR-15 argument. . .   The 5.56 has plenty of range and accuracy for any kind of normal combat scenario that a civilian is likely to find himself in.  Plus, ammo is inexpensive (as centerfire rifle ammo goes), and there is readily available 5.56 FMJ ammo that will fragment on impact, making it considerably more lethal than the typical 7.62 FMJ round.

Of course, you can load an AR-10 with ballistic tip ammo and it'll be devastating.  You can get great results out of either rifle.  It's a truism that the shooter operating the rifle is the ultimate variable for success or failure.