your choice of RRA, Stag and PSA are all great choices. I know RRA only has 1/9 barrels (for their carbines), but to me that doesnt mean anything unless Im running an 18 or 20 inch barrel and I want to use 77gr bullets. For a 16" carbine a 1-9 is perfect and can even sometimes run 75gr bullets with it. This whole thing going lately that if it isnt a 1/7 barrel then that means its not milspec so it must be worthless, is horse shit. Id personally grab the PSA just because I am an FN fanboy but most barrels you find that the better companies use are FN barrels IE: Centurion, Spikes, PSA, and many others. Rumors have BCM and Noveske as FN barrels but thats top secret info I guess.
Just pick up whichever one has the better deal going or the better options for the price and go shoot and be happy, and dont worry what anyone else thinks of your choice.
If all these companies were putting out garbage like people say then they would go out of business. There is WAY too much competition in the AR market for companies to be putting out crap and be able to stay in biz

DING DING DING !!!!  We have a winner !!!!!!

You have to work at it to find a crappy AR15 these days.

Avoid pretty much all the major commercial brands (i.e., RRA, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc.), with the exception of Colt and S&W. PSA is always a great choice. I've spent thousands of dollars with that company and they have always been good to me.

Ok, I'm curious why the Colt hate? I'm perfectly fine avoiding them for bad business tactics or some reason. I just don't know what those reasons are...

Blind rage, gun shop gossip, with a dash of inferiority complex.  

From having worked part time in a shop, my experience has been that margins on Colts for gun shops is less than many other brands, plus, if everyone wants one, they spend a lot of time waiting for a backorder than buying the higher margin guns off the shelf, making it in a gun shop's best interest to "talk smack" about Colts, knowing that some people are always going to continue buying them, while they can talk other buyers into the higher margin, in stock items.  

Some people have issues with unionized labor, or the fact that they started "neutering" some of their commercial weapons in anticipation of the '94 AWB before it passed.                  

~Augee

I have experience with Armalite, CMMG and PSA.  I currently have 1-20" Armalite A2, 1-CMMG 16" middy M10 (CHF) and 3-PSA rifles (1-20", 1-16" dissy &1-14.7 all CHF).  All have been excellent rifles so far. I would say they are all pretty equal.  The armalite has the better LPK followed by CMMG then PSA.  The fit and finish of them all are about the same.  My experiences with customer service would rate PSA the worst by far, Armalite a close second.  I do not have an opinion on CMMG customer service as I have never needed to use it but I must say they have been great to me. I acquired that rifle in trade from Jeff over at CMMG and my dealings have been nothing but A+. I would buy one of their rifles in a second.  I do think cmmg's prices are a little high since PSA and BCM offer the same CHF quality uppers for much less.

I would stay away from Rguns at all cost. I have had bad luck with their LPK's and so have my friends.  Their uppers do not seem to be so bad though.

The stock charging handle was designed with a different manual of arms in mind; the modern technique(charging with the left palm slapping the handle) puts a lot more stress on it and in different areas than the part was designed for.

The Vltor/BCM part was designed from the ground up with the modern manual of arms in mind.

Sorry for the bump, but how does everyone feel about ds arms or at least for a lower receiver?

Sorry, don't know why, but that made me hysterical.


On teh topic of CH's, BCM's CH shaft look teh same as a normal CH, so the BCM is as subject to breakage there as is any other normal CH.

Go for it dude.

So according to SOME of you we should avoid MOST of the site sponsors

It's great that we have site sponsors, but if you think its a good idea to base purchasing decisions primarily on who sponsors a website, I think you are nuts.

I would say Colt is a company to stay away from given the litany of qc issues they've been experiencing.  At the very least, buy with caution

I say build what you want and enjoy.

hardly any of the first line issues you cite

Colt has well documented issues with qc from the army to LE and now onto civie sales.  The military sends back, mind you their armorers fix and prep the rifles upon receipt, of almost 5%.  Anyone with a lick of business sense knows that is beyond bad.  We've had numerous armorers come on here to tell of horror stories with Colts.  Colt enjoys major fanboy love because of the military usage however, what many fail to acknowledge is that armorers run round the clock keeping those rifles running.  Colt is no better than most brands out there and DEFINITELY not on the accurate side...

Who are these "armorers" you're always referring to? I'e never read any of this with regard to Colt.

ALCON:

Meet Exhibit A:



Source?

~Augee

Spikes sucks.

7 months and still waiting. not to mention I bought/used one of their parts kits and it is a complete hunk of shit.  Iam going to pull it out of the gun and throw it in the trash.  Probably repace it with a DPMS or Bushmaster.

Worthless hobby quality brand. With the wide availability of BCM, Colt, DD and LaRue why would you waste your $$$ on Spikes.

After seeing their commercial on the Outdoor Channel this weekend I did some searching here on Anderson. Came across a thread where one of their higher ups was apearantly exhibiting some less than upstanding sales tactics. Any developments on this brand since then?

I read your thread on Spike's forum in the industry section here. So you're saying Spike's sucks because you ordered one of their lowers from your LGS and it was on backorder? There's a lot of other dealers that carry them. So their LPK is a "hunk of shit" because it was missing the hammer spring? Did you call Spike's and have them send it out to you? Was it a "hunk of shit" after you received it and assembled it? Good luck with DPMS and Shrubmaster.

BS. You certainly don't have to like them but "worthless hobby brand" is very far from the truth.

And m200, your assessment and solution makes no sense.

By the way you guys are hating on these brands, I'm starting to think you're all a bunch of communists.

Being a newbie here, I had the same concerns about raising a ruckus about the sponsors, but I figured that we could have an open discussion about the subject. I had no ill intent towards them when I started this thread...

There are several websites that offer unnamed kits or parts. Would ya'll avoid those at all costs? Or if they say they are mil-spec should that be good enough and I can replace troublesome parts if needed as the kits themselves are pretty cheap? I would assume the upper & lower receivers are pretty standard. The barrel & BCG should are parts I think I would should most be concerned with. If the bolt or charging handle break does that cause any harm to the rifle, or is it just a broken part to deal with? I'm thinking run whatever comes in the kit and if it breaks upgrade to a Bravo Co. or the like.

One of the managers at my LGS who knew all the armorers for SEAL team 6 told me the exact same thing ... swear!

Thanks for the laughs guys, a great way to start  a monday, ... but wait lets not stop here cuz theres so many more we could trash if we just try a little harder. I would like to add to the list the dreaded ball buster 3000, cuz my cousins uncles brothers, son inlaws friend saw one explode at the range when a guy tried to shoot lightning bolts from it !!! blue

^^^ I haven't been on this forum for about two years because of stuff like this.  I guess my Spike's SBR should be thrown in the trash!!!  

A lot of us have experience with shit brands.  I've personally gotten tired of wasting my money, and I try to help others not waste theirs.

send it to me, I'll happily put thousands of rounds on that hunk of shit.

Source?  By prep do you mean the armorer (half the time just another grunt on profile) opens the crate in supply, issues the weapon to Joe, tells him to clean it, and then Joe takes it out to the range to zero and qualify?  Then after approximately 58 live rounds the weapon is thrown down on the floor of a HMMVW or back of a 5-Ton, taken back to barracks and overcleaned for 2 days, which usually includes a hot shower and perhaps some Simple Green?  The weapon is then jumped, fast roped, low crawled, IM drilled, SM drilled, and has hundreds of dirty blank rounds fired for every live round for the next 5-7 years before finally getting rotated out of service and sent back to 3rd shop for overhaul before being reissued to a Reserve/Guard unit or the Marines .

My point is your full of gun store BS.  While you were running around NJ I was crawling through the mud at Bragg and turning in my 7 year old, beat to crap Colt M16A2 for my brand new out of the factory box Colt M4.  I just described from first hand experience what happens when a new weapon is issued.

I've been issued and relied on Colt weapons (and some FN and S&W) professionally since 1992.  I have NEVER seen a Colt weapon with a chamber that was too tight, a canted FSB, a barrel nut work loose shooting, a bolt with less than 5K rounds break lugs (never at the cam pin hole), a gas key fail under 5K rounds, a receiver extension come loose, or any other malfunction that wasn't related to either a bad magazine or some dipshit trying to run the weapon with 3 drops of CLP "because it's easier to clean."  Over 20 years that is conservatively over 1000 Colt rifles I have been around at ranges, classes, field exercises, training, etc.  Maybe I've just been lucky.

I have seen all of those problems from factory RRA, DPMS, Bushmaster, Delton, Doublestar rifles and various home builds at different schools, matches, and trainings I have attended/taught/competed in over the last 13 years I have worked in local LE after leaving the military.  It cracks me up when the guy who has been talking smack about my "overpriced" Colt  has his RRA/DPMS/Bushmaster/Delton/CMMG, etc choke because of popped primers, broken bolts, loose gas keys,or whatever other reason.  Yeah, saving that $50-100 (maybe) sure was a good deal for that rifle that is always described as "just as good as" .

Colt, and every other company out there, has, and will continue, to ship out POS rifles that somehow slip through QC for whatever reason.  But Colt is the only company that builds to a known standard, from a TDP that they developed and everyone else reverse engineers.  There are companies like BCM, Daniel Defense, LaRue and Noveske that build to a higher standard but most commerical brands choose not to even attempt to meet that mininum standard.  Buying a "professional grade" over a commercial grade weapon just increases the odds that your weapon will function correctly out of the box AND hold up under hard use/abuse.  And the price difference is usually less than the cost of 100-200 rounds of ammo.....

Just my .02,
Rob

Excellent post RobNC and this mirrors my experience as well.
Guys on this board that buy rifles and shoot 100 rounds a year can get away with the lower end builders.
Guys who do this professionally, attend courses, train regularly and take it seriously know that you spend more to get more. I know and work with lots of guys who carry a carbine as part of thier daily life. I carry a carbine as part of my daily work and personal life. If the rifle is issued, it tends to be a Colt, HK or SR. If its a personal buy it tends to be a Colt, SR, DD, BCM or  LaRue. There is a reason for that.
My work carbine: Colt. My personal Carbines: Colt, BCM, LaRue.

Bravo!

Propably the best post I've red for a long time.

Best regards,
The man without any Colt made products.

Your assertion is nonsense. Colt does not and has never dictated sales prices or margins on their firearms.

Gun shops and Gun buyers began a Colt boycott in 1998 after Colt President Ron Stewart said that he favored a federal permit and registration system that requires testing and training for gun owners.

That interview Was published in The Washington Post and is referenced: Brown, Peter H.; Abel, Daniel G. (2003). Outgunned: up against the NRA : the first complete insider account of the battle over gun control. Simon and Schuster. pp. 63–65. ISBN 978-0-7432-1561-9.

Editorial Written by Colt CEO Ron Stewart
Published December 18, 1997
American Firearms Industry Magazine



This Month's Guest Editorial by Ron Stewart, CEO and President of Colt's Manufacturing

Millions of American citizens own firearms. For the most part these citizens enjoy the use of their firearms in a safe and responsible way for hunting, skeet shooting, trap shooting, target shooting and other recreational sports. Over the last few years, however, the "gun control issue" has gained center stage due to the relentless, negative campaign launched by the gun control lobby. They want to put us all out of business, manufacturers, dealers and distributors, and eliminate our Second Amendment rights. Ironically, with the exception of the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban which passed last year, no gun control legislation passed in Congress this year and the much-touted Washington State referendum failed.

Given this recent reprieve one could almost believe the debate has ended and the gun control lobby has been silenced. Unfortunately, a November 20, 1997 article in the Wall Street Journal entitled "Big Guns in the Media Take Aim Against Firearms" reminds us that the gun control lobby is more determined than ever to put firearms manufacturers out of business, and they are devising new methods to achieve their goals. The reality is that we are about to be hit by a new wave of attacks on our industry and the key battleground is that of public opinion. Failure to address this issue aggressively could be devastating.

The question that begs to be answered is why is the gun industry being so singularly targeted when statistics and public opinion appear to be on our side? In my opinion, the answer is simple: the anti-gun lobby argument focuses on the fact that innocent people, including children, are occasionally the victims of firearms. The gun control lobby has become dangerously adept at using manipulative public relations campaigns and high powered public relations firms to portray the firearms industry as villainous and self-serving.

By contrast, the firearms industry has consistently and arduously taken the lead in advocating and implementing strong measures to improve weapons safety. Despite this fact, we have not been successful in presenting our case to the public. We have allowed ourselves to sit back and ignore the problem, thus becoming part of it. Silence is acceptance. Our responses to the anti-gun lobby are ill-postured, defensive and pathetically inadequate when we accept watered down versions of their agenda and nod our heads in agreement to their publicity stunts while, we as an industry, do abhor the unsafe use of handguns.

It would be a grievous mistake to allow the next wave of attacks by the gun control lobby to back us into a corner and for us to respond as we have in the past. The time has come to take the high ground and pre-empt their next strike. We need to focus on two fronts: advocate programs that promote safe firearm practices and take the lead in developing new technologies to improve firearm safety. Today's reality requires that consumers and industry work together to responsibly address the issue of gun safety.

Given the skillful manipulation of public perception by the anti-gun lobby, we need to rally our large base of support to make certain that our message and, most importantly, our actions, are getting through to the public. To accomplish it I offer the following five courses of action.

(1) The creation of a research and development program to further firearms technology toward more advanced methods that promote safety (such as personalized firearms). While technology such as this should not be mandated it should be an option for the consumer. If we can send a motorized computer to Mars, then certainly we can advance our technology to be more childproof.

(2) The passage of a comprehensive federal firearms law, including the creation of a federal gun permit, that would pre-empt the hodgepodge of existing state laws and local ordinances. I heard several manufacturers complain to the Attorney General in Massachusetts that we already have serial numbers on our firearms so why do we need a second set of serial numbers. If he and the others mandate hidden serial numbers then we would likely have to live with 50 different state regulations. Why not federalize this standard - isn't that a protective measure that prevents illegal ownership of a firearm?

(3) Emphasize responsibility and accountability where it belongs. We ought to give serious consideration to a gun permit requirement that would necessitate each permit holder to undergo thorough firearms training and pass a uniform examinations. The law also should require that dealers qualify as certified firearms instructors and actively participate in training the public concerning the safe the appropriate handling of guns. The distribution chain should embrace this as it should stimulate sales.

(4) We believe that legislative reform should ensue to prohibit the bringing of so called "defectless" product liability cases, such as the Hamilton case, against the firearms industry. We as defendants, need to take the offensive in gun cases, which remedies should include obtaining sanctions against certain plaintiffs for bringing frivolous lawsuits, and, when warranted, seeking redress against those persons failing to safeguard weapons used to cause wrongful injury or death. (5) The creation of a joint industry committee to study firearms technology and safety mechanisms.

Are there any brands that just don't mix and match.  I "heard" that DPMS doesn't almays mix with other brands although mine does with S&W and Colt.

There are several patterns of .308 AR's with parts that do not match. DPMS/SR25, Rock River, and AR10B.

Dictated?  No, of course not.  I never said they dictated anything.  

However, from what I have seen working for a dealer - one dealer mind you, so I can only speak for that experience - but Colt's distributor price is closer to MSRP than other manufacturers.  Can they dictate?  No.  But they can post and advertise their own MSRP.  

Under those circumstances - as a dealer, you have two choices - sell way above MSRP to maintain your "set" margin on a given product, which may discourage shoppers who are aware of posted MSRPs and competitors prices - or sell near MSRP and simply accept that you have a smaller margin than most other firearms.  

I do appreciate you're actually posting a reference, though.  It makes it far easier to have a discussion, so - cheers to you.  

As I mentioned before - I don't expect everyone to agree with everything Colt has said or has done.  Would I be correct in assuming you also "hate" Ruger as well?  

The Colt of 1998 is not the Colt of 2012.  Without going into the history of the company, I think it would be fair to say - like all companies, it's evolved over the years and made good decisions and bad decisions.  

What is the statute of limitations to you on when a company outgrows the words and deeds of past iterations of the company?  Ten years?  Twenty years?  Fifty years?  Never?  

Do you refuse to buy BMW or even Ford cars, or refuse to take Bayer asprin on principle because you refuse to support Nazis?  If you do, that's fine, your opinions are certainly sacrosanct, and I wouldn't interfere with them.  

I on the other hand do not think it's worthwhile or sensible to continue to blame a company for what one high ranking executive said over a decade ago when they were in a political and media hot-seat.  As I've mentioned before - even today - ask a non-gun owner to name five gun companies.  I guarantee you Colt will be in the top five.  They're very high profile - very well known.  I'd only give a half chance to Bushmaster being named - and not a bit to DPMS, BCM, Daniel Defense, or whatever other companies that have made their names on ARs and AR associated products.  Karl Lewis and Jerry Drasen could beat their drums all day and night about the sanctity of the Second Amendment in 1998 and no one would have blinked an eyelash.  The media was calling for Colt's immediate castration - the "assault weapons manufacturer."  It's nevertheless unfortunate that Ron Stewart kowtowed to the pressure of the enemies of the Second Amendment to such an extent, and personally disgraceful for him.  The company too suffered a commercial boycott then.  The buying public let Colt know that they were unhappy - they nearly went bankrupt, they cleaned house (though whether you like the new management or not is again - a personal opinion - but is Cerberus any better?).

I was not a gun owner or gun buying in 1998 - I make an assumption that you were?  Perhaps being disconnected from the situation in that way allows me to hold less residual anger over the it.  Maybe I would feel differently if I was a gun owner back then.  

While the '98 editorial is an interesting piece of history, I don't think it has much relevance in today's Colt "hate" that we see on ARFCOM, except perhaps it adds to the motivation for the gun shop tales of the horribleness of Colt.  Possibly many shop proprietors remember, like you, these dark days for the company.  

Yet, most of the current Colt "haters" here don't even know about it, I myself was somewhat aware of it, but had never read the actual editorial.  

If this is your reason for hating Colt - I have no problem exempting you from my description.  I wouldn't try to push a Colt on you any more than I'd try to get a WWII vet into a BMW if he didn't want to.  You have your reasons, I might not agree, but I can't fault you for them.  

Me - my last car was a Ford, I'd buy a BMW if I could afford one, I keep a bottle of Bayer in my aid bag, and I like my Colt rifles.  

~Augee

I had an RRA lower that would not accept a Noveske upper.



 

For what it's worth, my A4-gery started out as an Olympic Arms PCR (Politically Correct Rifle, basically an AWB built gun without the "evil features"). The only original parts left on the thing are the lower and the LPK. Basically, when it was in it's original configuration, it worked fine. Mag dumps never hiccuped, even with Tula and Wolf. Now that I got a Sherluck upper (local company in Ohio that does economic, well-functioning uppers, the Olympic bolt riding in it head spaced fine, and has never jammed nor malfunction after probably 1500 rounds of reloads, brass cased Federal, and Wolf/Tula. From what I've heard, I'm lucky.

I recently just traded a PSL for a Stag Model 1, and have a TA01NSN sitting on it. Stag and Rock River use the same company for their parts, it's just one is more pricey than the other. Weird in my opinion. That is the extent of my first hand AR knowledge. Buy a Stag with confidence, as it's worked for me on my college kid budget.

I boycotted Colt, S&W, and Ruger until they had management changes subsequent to their faux pas. I currently buy the best available product for my needs and budget. I was merely pointing out that folks did have a reason beyond pricing to eschew Colt firearms, and that they have every right to make buying decisions based upon whatever criteria they wish. I bought a 6920 back in June, 2012. It was one of 3 purchases this year and brought the number of Colt's I own to three. I own stock in Ruger, and own 5 Smith and Wesson's. Cerberus seems to be pro-profit and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as they realize that when any conpany allows its long term goals to diverge from the long term goals of its customers, it does so at its peril!

Cheers, then. It sounds like we agree. Again, I've stated multiple times in the past - there's enough reasons to dislike Colt that are legitimate if you're familiar with the company's history - but there are for almost all companies.  A symptom of profit motive, which, while not inherently bad, is not always altruistic, and sometimes morally ambiguous... fact of life, I'm afraid.

My original post that you responded to was a semi-sarcastic generalization about the majority of Colt "haters" that I've seen on ARFCOM in the past six years I have been a member here, and was never intended to be a "catch all" description.  

~Augee

I have had great satisfaction with the following parts and companies:

Model 1 Sales,  Unbelieveable accuracy from their 16 inch heavy mid-length unlined.  Finish not perfect.  I recrowned each.  100 yard nickel sized groups right out of the box on last three I ordered.

PK,  Great prices, ships fast, great customer service.  If it is shown on their web page it is in stock and shipped as soon as you order.

Rock River Arms,  Perfection in fit and quality.  Orders are shipped fast if they have it as demand is great.  Accuracy, quality, durability and great service.

Magpul,   First quality and fit for a small price.  I have never ordered a part that wasn't better then I expected for the price.

Armalite,  Best of the best.  You get what you pay for and service is first class.  Working with their service dept. the few times I have needed to they treated me like I was bringing my Rolls Royce in for service when I actually bought their bottom of the line product.

Midway,  Great service, selection and fair prices.  Ships real fast.  Back orders take a real long time but eventually arrive.  If you have a problem they fix it.

DPMS,  Good quality parts and service.  Never hesitate to buy from them.

DSA,  They are doing something right as I can't go a day without someone saying good things about their parts and service and prices.

I can't believe the amount of Oly fanboys that show up during a thread like this one.

And yes I've owned Olympic Arms CRAP!

Link to the Aimless list of Oly posts....Link

It is always refreshing to find another individual who is more interested in celebrating our common interests as well as cherishing the right to have differing views. When those who love liberty fall into the trap of taking offense at dissent, lumber headlong into giving characteristics reserved for the living to inanimate objects, and revile objects and opinions, instead of acts and ommissions, we give our progressive adversaries opportunities to incite, beguile, and maneuver that they would not have otherwise enjoyed. Cheers indeed!

psa. avoid them like the plague. no customer service and you wont get your order until christmas next year. quality of parts is hit and miss from what i have seen/owned.

It amazes me that people get so caught up in the brand vs. brand.

About 7 years ago, Rock River Arms was hailed as the pinnacle of quality on this forum as they had the DEA contract and beat out the other major manufacturers at the time.  Now you get guys that say they are throwaway garbage because they don't have another preferred brand on the side.  How much of this is marketing and how much is hype?

There are some people that will argue that parkerizing under the gas block is essential to a firearm because the Mil-Spec standard from the 1950's required it.  If you really want to inform yourself, look up the Mil-Spec processes and then study how CNC machining and metallurgy has evolved in the past 60 years.  Batch testing is typically done at most manufacturers rather than individual part testing at x point because the rejection rates are about the same and the costs are ultimately passed on to the customer.  Any bad batches that make it through in the batch or individual part testing can be typically replaced under warranty.  

I implore anyone interested in a brand to take a look in the Industry Forums here for that brand and see what issues people are having and how they are handled.  Any piece of machinery can fail and some may not be right out of the box... most companies that have been around here for a while will take care of the customer, otherwise they would be out of business if their weapons were really as bad as some posters make them out to be.

rbread  to try and answer your question, i would just go and buy what best fits your budget from one of the brand name manufactors. If that should be the $497 dpms at wally then just get it and have fun. It will do all the plinking or coyote shooting or whatever you need it for.
There are a lot of inexpensive ar rifles on the market and if you stay with one of the name brand base models you should be ok for what you want to do. Bet you didn't think a simple question would turn into this. blue

Rohgarms.com

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=616613

low quality parts, questionable assembling, out of spec parts

After reading this thread, that may not be a bad idea.