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Link Posted: 12/4/2005 3:55:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 4:27:13 AM EDT
Absolutely.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 8:01:16 AM EDT
M193 will out-penetrate M855 at close range because of the M193's increased velocity. It isn't until the 100 yard mark or so that the M855 starts to be superior. True M995 is almost non-existant in the private sector. Its extremely rare in the military. Originally, SAW belts were to be loaded exclusively with M995 and tracers, however the M995 being a true AP round, has poor terminal ballistics and doesn't have the size of the 7.62x51 to make up for lack of fragmentation.
I have seen SAW belts alternating between M995 and M855 every other round with the 5th round being a tracer. This would provide a much better anti personel and anti material capability than being loaded with just M855 or M955. The M995 that I have seen doesn't have a black painted tip. The bullet is enitrely black and is covered with a lubricant so it feels greasy. So, if you see "black tip" AP at the gun show, its not M995. You will probably not ever see M995 until its components are demilled years from now...besides, its illegal to own as its true AP ammo.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 8:40:55 AM EDT
Don't be so quick to discount the penetration potential of the 7.62. From the Fulton armory website:

"5.56 and 7.62 mm Armour Piercing Ammunition

The new-generation armour piercing ammunition from Bofors Carl Gustaf for assault rifle or machine gun is designed for full effect against modern targets.

The 5.56 AP round penetrates 12 mm armour plate of 300 HB at 100 m. The 7.62 AP round penetrates 15 mm armour plate at 300 m. It also penetrates 120 mm Plexiglas helicopter protection and is highly effective on brick and concrete walls and causes no barrel wear.

Cartridge, 7.62mm AP, M993 and the Cartridge, 5.56mm AP, M995 are similar in design. Both cartridges employ a tungsten core within a jacketed bullet envelope. The projectiles are crimped onto a brass cartridge case with a standard propellant charge. The shaped tungsten core provides enhanced armor penetration over the standard issue cartridges.

The M993 7.62mm AP round enhances the performance of the M60 and M240 7.62mm machine guns and the M24 Sniper Weapon System over the M80 Ball by effectively increasing the engagement ranges against lightly armored targets.

The M995 5.56mm AP round provides the 5.56mm weapon systems M249 machine gun, M16A2 Rifle, and M4 & M4A1 Carbine, with the increased capability to penetrate lightly armored vehicles and fortified positions at extended ranges. Currently, there is no AP cartridge in the 5.56mm cartridge inventory.

In today's world environment quick response to conflicts in different regions around the world necessitates a light and rapidly deployable combat force. These forces may face various concentrations of lightly armored threat forces with varying degrees of weapon sophistication. By providing our soldiers with these AP ammunitions, we increase the lethality of their current weapon systems and increase the number of systems that will be able to defeat these threats. Therefore, by increasing the firepower of our early entry forces, we increase their survivability."

Link Posted: 12/5/2005 10:05:46 AM EDT
just to add more info to the discussion...i was reading up on the NATO trials of the SS109/M855 in the 80s and the SS109 bullet was able to pentrate one side of a US steel helmet at a little over 1300m while the 7.62 M80 could penetrate it out to 800m
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 10:22:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
British use different bullet color coding. Black tip British is not the same as American black tip. American black tip is 995 and it is not pretty much the same as m855. Also as stated previously AP is illegal in 5.56 and 7.62 for civilians but 50BMG and 30-06 AP are specifically exempted.



Greek M855 is black tip as well.

Ballistics on M995 are 55gr@3280 from a 20" barrel, IIRC.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 10:23:31 AM EDT
Comparing SS109 to the M80 is like comparing apples to oranges. From http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#762

Q. Isn't 7.62 NATO much better for long range penetration than 5.56 anyhow? Why would I want to use 5.56 when I could send 7.62 downrange instead?
Well, yes and no. For some penetration mediums like mild steel, M855 is actually superior. Consider a recent research report:

The SS-109 can penetrate the 3.45mm standard NATO steel plate to 640 meters, while the 7.62mm ball can only penetrate it to 620 meters. The U. S. steel helmet penetration results are even more impressive as the SS-109 can penetrate it up to 1,300 meters, while the 7.62mm ball cannot penetrate it beyond 800 meters.

The current production 7.62×51mm NATO ball cartridge has remained unchanged since its adoption by NATO in 1953. As typified by the U. S. M80 ball and the Belgian M77 ball, this cartridge propels a 147-grain cupronickel-jacketed lead bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,800 fps (848 mps). Total cartridge length and weight are 2.80 inches and 386 grains, respectively. Utilizing a standard 22-inch barrel with a rifling twist of one turn in twelve inches (M14 rifle), the maximum effective range of the 7.62×51mm ball cartridge is listed as 620 meters (682 yards). The U. S. M80 and the Belgian M77 ball projectiles can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45 mm (.14 inch) thick steel plate up to a range of 620 meters and can penetrate one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 800 meters (880 yards). In barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 147 grain ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks.

The new SS-109 cartridge propels a heavier 62-grain semi-armor piercing projectile at an initial velocity of 3,050 fps (924 mps). The improved projectile contains a 10-grain .182 caliber hardened steel penetrator that ensures penetration at longer ranges.

The new projectile can penetrate the standard NATO 3.45mm steel plate up to a range of 640 meters (704 yards) and one side of the U. S. steel helmet up to a range of 1,300 meters (1430 yards). In tests of barrier and fortification penetration however, the steel penetrator of the SS-109 could not pierce any of the test building blocks.

The primary advantages of the intermediate power 5.56×45mm NATO cartridge are summarized as follows: (1) the penetration and power of the SS-109 version are superior to the 7.62mm NATO and more than adequate for the 300-meter average combat range documented in actual battle (ORO studies): (2) the lower recoil generated by the 5.56mm cartridge allows more control during full automatic fire and therefore provides greater firepower to the individual soldier; (3) the lesser weight of the 5.56mm ammunition allows the individual soldier to carry more ammunition and other equipment; (4) the smaller size of the 5.56mm ammunition allows the use of smaller, lighter and more compact rifles and squad automatic weapons and; (5) the lethality of the 5.56mm projectile is greater than the 7.62mm projectile at normal combat ranges, due to the tendency of the lighter projectile to tumble or shatter on impact. In summary, the 5.56mm NATO provides greater firepower and effectiveness than the larger and heavier 7.62mm NATO. 5.56-mm NATO ammunition weight only 47% as much as 7.62 mm NATO ammunition.

However:

These comparisons however, do not consider the fact that the SS-109 uses a semi-armor piercing, steel-cored projectile, while the 7.62mm ball uses a relatively soft antipersonnel, lead-cored projectile. A semi-armor piercing 7.62mm caliber projectile, using second generation technology as the SS-109, would easily outperform the smaller SS-109 projectile in penetration tests at all ranges. With respect to barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 7.62mm ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks, while the SS-109 semi-armor piercing projectile cannot penetrate a single block.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 10:23:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
Curious as to why the US military would switch to the M855 (as well as the rest of NATO with the SS109)?

I would think there would be limited circumstances when it would be beneficial over say a 62gr soft point. Except of course if the enemy would be wearing Level IV body armor. But does any of the current "enemies" of the US or NATO equip their troops (other than Spec Ops) with Body Armor?




The insurgents are occasionally wearing armor. M855 was chosen for its ability to penetrate a steel helmet at 600m.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 10:30:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 10:37:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Three 5.56 bullets tested for penetration through car doors.



Could you post the article? The site asks for registration
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 10:44:26 AM EDT
Someone send some steel plates to Old_Painless already so we can put this thread to rest.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 11:00:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
Someone send some steel plates to Old_Painless already so we can put this thread to rest.



+1
1/4" and 3/8" plates at 50m increments from 10m to 150-200m. Test out the different 5.56 rounds as well as .308, 5.45 and 7.62x39 while were at it
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 11:51:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Three 5.56 bullets tested for penetration through car doors.



Could you post the article? The site asks for registration



Sorry, I forgot about that.


Originally Posted By Disgustipated:
Sorry, no pics. The rounds we tried were XM193, M855 and SAAMI spec 75gr Hornady TAP. Car was a mid ninties Police Interceptor. Rifle(s) were 14.5" M4s, with 1/7 5.56 barrels. Distance to first door: 10' (approx.). Four shots of each ammo type were fired through pairs of doors, at a 90* angle. The glass was not in the line of fire.

Results:
M193 performed the worst. 1/4 actually made it through door two, the rest lodged against the last sheet steel panel.
Next best was M855. The penetrator went completely through both doors in all cases, but the holes were unimpressively small.
Best performer was the TAP. It left 1" long gashes in the second door. All rounds completely exited--one must have hit something very hard, because there was a 6" pattern of fragments, most of which exited. The others left only the one hole.

One thing is certain--all of these rounds had enough energy left when they were in the passenger compartment to cause significant injuries or death.

Even a heavy bodied car like a CVPI is concealment, not cover.

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:05:20 PM EDT
I have some steel targets that were made for me from armor plate. They are very hard and 7.62 and 5.56 FMJ's simply make splash marks on them. Only time any damage has been done is hitting very close to the edge. Haven't tried AP on them since I like them. Be careful if your shooting AP as I have seen jackets come back at considerable velocity.

If I really want to shoot through something I have a pretty good supply of WWII 3006 AP these were made with tungsten penetrators and shoot through a whole lot of stuff!!!! Much better than a steel penetrator.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 5:14:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 5:14:27 PM EDT by uglygun]
Loading the 30-06 163grn AP projectile into a 300WinMag or 300RUM is even more fun.

Then you start to approach capabilities of what a 50BMG AP projectile can do.

I've got a 1 1/4 inch steel plate that has absorbed around 30-40 hits of 50BMG and out of all those rounds only 4 of the 50BMG projectiles have completely penetrated.

Compare to my 300WinMag handloads with 163grn AP projos at around 3200fps. Same steel plate had absorbed around 20 shots while working up the handloads. Of 20 shots, one round managed to completely penetrate.

Distance for the 300WinMag was around 80-100 yards. Distance for the 50BMG was 100-200 yards on average.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:05:55 AM EDT

Loading the 30-06 163grn AP projectile into a 300WinMag or 300RUM is even more fun.


Wouldn't that be illegal?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:30:16 AM EDT
How do the ss109 rounds like GP90 and Hirtenberger penetrate compared with M855?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:59:18 AM EDT
AFAIK GP90 is a solid core projectile without a penetrator insert, so it's just a 63gr FMJ. Penetration is probebly similar to M193.


Originally Posted By quiettype:
How do the ss109 rounds like GP90 and Hirtenberger penetrate compared with M855?

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:20:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 7:20:56 AM EDT by JTinIN]

Originally Posted By quiettype:
How do the ss109 rounds like GP90 and Hirtenberger penetrate compared with M855?



The Hirtenberger steel core that was around in the '90s penetrated steel better than the USGI, Canadian or Israeli steel core SS109/M855 ammo. Even the good old boys shooting at old farm equipment noticed the difference.

For the Hirtenberger the X-rays found the tip of the penetrator to have a better shape (more a formed point than a sheared core), the hardness of the penetrator was higher and at the very least the velocity was at the upper end of the batch (do not have notes with me at this time).

However, the loading shoots a little over an inch different in (both windage and elevation) than USGI or Canadian M855 in my HBAR,
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 2:11:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GreenM4Guy:
it was a 6"x6" cold rolled steel plate 1/2" thick. OK im going out for round 2 tommorrow so ill try at 150yds and report back.



Did you ever re-do the test at 150yds?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 3:10:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 3:12:48 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:11:35 PM EDT
M855 and SS109 are one in the same both have the harden cores in the nose back up by lead . Some manufactures vary slightly but for the most part they are identical. NATO specs are a carbon copy of U.S. Spec's.

M855/SS109 can not pass thru a LAV (light armoured Vehicle) door 3/8 thick
7.62 standard AP can not pass thru a LAV door
.50 caliber standard AP about 50% of the time.
Hence they developed the SLAP round in .50 caliber to defeat LAV'S.

M193 will pass thru toilet paperh
M855/SS109's can only cause grave damage to someone if it hits a vital organ or bone. An organ speaks for itself, only after the projectile hits a solid mass will it tumble and fragment otherwise it is only as good as a .22. That is why the Specail Ops guy's hate the 5.56 and want a replacement. Its crazy, a lot of States will not allow you to hunt deer with a 5.56 (and deer do not shoot back) but yet our troops are fighting with it.

P.S. ATF is calling the M855/SS109 an AP round. Law prohibits AP'S for hand guns, since there are gun manufactures producing pistols in 5.56 the M855/SS109 will be outlawed. We had several dealers have their ammo seized by the ATF, in Ill's and in Texas, coming to a State near you!!!!

We had one shipment to a DOE site stopped, inpected at the freight terminal and the end user varified before releasing it.

More sad days to come.

Art - Silver State Armory

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:18:26 PM EDT
Point us to a ruling that states that the ATF has changed their mind on the SS109 then.

It used to be you could find the extemption on SS109 and M2 30-06AP online at the ATF webpage, can't find it now because either I am stupid and can't find it or because they removed it and are revising it.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:13:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 11:18:12 PM EDT by mcantu]

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By GreenM4Guy:
it was a 6"x6" cold rolled steel plate 1/2" thick. OK im going out for round 2 tommorrow so ill try at 150yds and report back.



Did you ever re-do the test at 150yds?



I went with him next day at 50yds - too much snow and cold for 150. Not sure why he never posted the pictures of the results. Kids these days

M855 from a 16" barrel went through the1/2" plate. The 3/8" steel was penetrated by the 14.5", and an 11.5" came damn close to penetrating the 3/8" too - the steel core of the bullet pierced and was sticking out the back, but did not go all the way through.


Next time, I'm sure I could easily shoot a group through the 3/8" steel with the 11.5" barrel, and I'm sure the same could be done with 1/2" and a 14.5" barrel. I bet it would take no more than 5 well placed shots to get a good sized hole.

It was interesting, but not nearly as fun as shooting through railroad rails with the black tip ammo from my M1 Garand.






So the same rounds that didnt penetrate the 1/2 plate the first time did penetrate it this time at the same distance?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:54:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:35:14 AM EDT
I think both M855/ss109 and its older brother M193 is all we need as far as penetration goes!
Why do use non military guys need m955 anyway
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:01:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
I think both M855/ss109 and its older brother M193 is all we need as far as penetration goes!
Why do use non military guys need m955 anyway




Sounds kinda like when people say "why does anyone need an 'assault rifle'?"
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