1500 rounds per person is a lot.  
That's 50 mags per person, 7500 mags per company, 450 ammo cans... 225,000 rounds total
Considering each guy carries about 10 mags, that means each mag got used 5 times.  
Did you guys have your own personal mag loaders?  

I don't ever remembering shooting that much while I was in.  Back then I though 210 rounds in one session was a lot.

Oh boy another one that went 15k rounds without a clean or bolt swap.  Man I really think Crane is wrong and should really consult  Arfcom about AR bolt failures.    6-10k is way too low.  Everyone on Arfcom goes 15-20k easily, maybe it's because Crane uses Colt and Arfcom uses Bushmasters?

I change my own oil, yes.

Best of luck to Robinson, and the people who've bought their rifles, but I won't deal with Century anymore, and to hear the stories about the M96 gives me Century flashbacks.

George, there were 26 men in my platoon, no company involved. We each had 13 HK mags and 7 Beretta PVD mags.

My last comment in this thread - this is entirely believable - depending on the firing schedule.

Why last? I was hoping we could hit 22 pages.

You realize your 26 man platoon had more than half the number of rounds (39,000) then the captured stash of the entire NVA regiment at Hamburger Hill (~75k rounds).

Did you still have some left over after shooting 39,000 rounds?

Look, I don't know what your agenda is. I have nothing to prove to you. I've fired more in a few hours out of a Colt M4 than you have in the entire time you've owned your XCR.

Yes, we had Mk262 to use after shooting all the M855. Ammo was delivered to us by the pallet.

I am not doubting you, must be nice to shoot all that ammo and not have to pick up all that brass and not have to clean all those weapons.  39,000 rounds being delivered to one platoon for one range session must have been a God send.  

After reading your post I come to realize Crane don't know what the heck they are talking about.  M4's can easily go past 10k rounds, even Bushmasters.

Range call was over 2 hours that day, and we did clean our weapons afterwards. What's your point?

No point.  Just trying to find out more about today's military.  It amazes me that one platoon was given 39,000 rounds.  

1) Did you guys keep a detailed log of how much each and every weapons shot?  

2) How often did you replace your bolts?  Why stress your guns so much?  Why not just save them for a rainy day?  

3) Did each guy in your unit have more than one rifle? You guys carry extra bolts?

4) You mentioned HK mags, did everyone in your platoon had HK mags?  Colt mags were not good enough for you guys?

5) loading each mag 5 times, 1500 rounds much have been a lot of work in itself.  Did each guy have his own personal loader?

No log that I was aware of, we all pretty much shot the same amount. We were friendly with the armorer, though. I don't recall any of the weapons needing major service during the 9 months I was with this unit, though I'm sure they needed a rebuild at the end of the deployment.

We had to train for our mission (PSD), better a worn gun in trained hands than a new gun in untrained hands.

We each had a rifle and a pistol, no spare bolts, no broken bolts during the whole deployment, though we did keep abreast of broken bolt issues in units using the M4A1. We also had crew serves (M240, M2, MK19) and 1 SAW per vehicle and also 2 MGLs. I had a SAW and an MGL in addition to my M4 and M9. The SAW took up the vast majority of my weapons maintenance time. But I did love that weapon.

Once we switched to HK mags, 13 each, our malfunctions dropped off the face of the earth. USGI mags - very few were Colt - were unsat. However, once the HK mags wore out, they were done.

I had a picture of my hands after one range day, but I can't find it. Blistered, callused and small bleeding in some areas.

So in 9 months deployed, you went to the range 20 times?  And no bolt breakage?  No Barrel wearing out or throat erosion?  Did Crane know about this?  Maybe you should get them to give a new presentation.

The XCR does not bring anything new to the fight nor will it ever warrant the time and effort of a full blown CRANE test.  A CRANE report is a great resource to determine a baseline so the community is aware of capability and limitation.  Once this is released / known, then the process improvement comes into play followed by R&D, fielding, and then money (in-a-nutshell).  Interestingly, I have not come across any H&K piston CRANE reports, but then again I haven't looked too hard yet.  These have been fielded in small quantities among various .mil / .gov units (NOT JUST SPEC-OPS).  

A CRANE report on the XCR could surprise you, but more than likely will disappoint.  So we have a proven Colt M4 platform that shits where it eats, KISS concept, less moving parts, less weight, most accuracy potential AND A BASELINE with expected results if exceeded, set by the .mil/.gov.  Until I see the same .mil/.gov BASELINE on the XCR or other MFG's for that matter, I know what my choice will be...read NOT other MFG's with agenda's / smoke-and-mirrors.  

But I agree the XCR is a great example of a  "CASUAL-SHOOTER-SPEC", nice plinking rig that DOES NOT shit where it eats.  Any other talk of "just as good/better than AR/M4" is wishful thinking / wet dreaming.  

Maybe you could get the XCR baselined on "Future Weapons", which is way more comprehensive than anything else!

But Crane is wrong.  AR's can easily go past 6000 rounds.  Arfcom says they can easily go 20k rounds.

Again I disagree. DCM Competitors burn through tons of ammo every year and launch heavier bullets than 62 gr. out of their rifles with out bolt problems. I'm fairly sure my predecessors shot their M16s a lot in the republic of Viet Nam with out  breaking bolts as well.  I have seen with my own two eyes a dozen broken carbine bolts. I have broken a carbine bolt myself and have it on hand this instant. I have never seen or heard of a rifle bolt breaking other than some messages from the Army safety center about exploded rifles due to bore obstructions. My Search Fu is weak. Are there any threads with content alluding to rifle bolts failing like carbine bolts do?

My previous battalion shot 4.1 million round in its pre-deployment training.  The last 1 day of shooting I did for 10 shooter was 5000 rounds of 5.56 and 9mm, so each shooter shot 500 round of each in a day; we shoot more now than we ever did in the past.

And not a sinlge one of those places have any uppers in stock.........

l would love to own a first gen M16.  Do you know how much that would be worth if it was in good condition?  

Never said the XCR was a proven platform.......but the design of the bolt and operating sys is based off of well proven firearm.

I bet if it was another company such as one of the big AR15 makers, the reception to the XCR would be greatly different.  How many years has the Masada (ACR) been in the pipeline and people are all ready blowing sunshine up it's ass.  Why?  Maybe it has something to do with the reputation of the companies that are working on it?

Hmmm.... I know Stag had a few in stock just last week when I was looking (that list was from my research-for-parts-run last week)

Never implied you specifically said the XCR was proven... but that would be my point.

People blow sunshine where they like... I only blow lead with a copper or brass jacket... It has a better history.

Also, again, I never said a first gen M16 isn't worth something (a mint condition would be worth a lot of money) and to a AR15/M16 enthusiast, its historic value and what not would be incalculable. But a draw back to my original statement. I don't own guns just because they are "cool looking" or have "historic" or "personal" value. Such sentiments are reserved for old books and cups, not instruments and tools one which my life may depend. I don't care to spend money that could be going to ammo and parts on guns whose only duty is to be the equivalent of a restored trailer queen/show car.

However, should I run across such a gun... I'll snap it up for you and not let it go for too much a premium.

My previous points/questions to the XCR adocates stand. Why do you indicate the weapon is a step forward? Were I an XCR owner, putting forth the qualities you do, I would say the weapon is a durable, accurate gun with which to train new shooters or put down extra range time on a possible range of calibers (by barrel/bolt swaps) when the individual ammo sells at a reasonable bulk price. It requires low maintenance and has a track record of good "mileage" without part replacement. Thus, yes, I am implying that should a XCR run across my plate for a decent price and in good condition (if used), I would be interested in snapping it up for training, since I informally teach new shooters in my off time. Such a gun sounds like a winner in that role. It also boosts the gun's visibility and allows the platform to gain market time and build a parts base and fanbase large enough to fill all the points I put forward. Then, if the weapon is as claimed, it would be a step forward. And without worrying if the bridge you crossed (and over which your supply line runs) is going to burn of its own volition at an inconvenient time.

I could not, in good conscious, recommend the gun as a service weapon to someone who may be choosing between it and another platform which is in most ways its equal or better for performance and has the kind of technical information depth and parts/options depth that such weapons as the 1911, AR15/M16/M4, AK47, and others.

I read the whole thread, but will comment on your individual points.



There are LOTS of folks who have run QUALITY AR's absolutely filthy.  Just properly lubed.  They worked fine.  Why do you think AR's need to be kept scrupulously clean?



OK, so you have to clean your rifle less.  Is it really a problem to clean your rifle?  I dunno, I don't these as any real advantage, except as one of convenience.



Really?  Can you provide some evidence that it will make a significant difference in the life cycle of a rifle? I've heard this claim before, but I've only heard anecdotal "Cooler is better."  As long as you keep the rifle lubed, and teh temperature doesn;t raise so much that the heat treat is damaged, I am skeptical of the claim.  



Again, provide the evidence.  I can't remember any accelerated wear calculations related to temperature. Again, you made the claim, show the data...



Generally, so do I.  But I'm not convinced that a piston makes the weapon better.  Once the weapon has a track record (with real operators, not range commandos), and SHOWS that's superior, then I'll be a believer. Has Robison had any success getting it adopted by real-world operators?  If so, I'd be interested in hearing their feedback.  



Ah yes, us old farts who don't want one of them new-fangled pistons.  Puleeze. Pistons are older than DI as you well know. There's nothing particularly "new" about the XCR or any of the piston guns.  We've been wrapping new ribbons around old boots fro a long time now.  Like I said, I will likely own a piston gun in the future.... an LMT upper, LWRC, maybe even an XCR if the price is right and I like the set up.  But for my go-to guy, I'll want what's best for me.  

Where did you get that we went to the range 20 times? I have no idea how many times we went.

Did you also see the part where I said that I was sure that the weapons needed to be rebuilt at the end of the deployment?

Did you also see the dust test where every rifle involved had erosion issues, not just the M4?



If you look at the MRBF, the M4 has the best record of dealing with this issue. In a real test between real weapons. Ooops! What's your next argument based on faulty logic, George?

If you want to believe cooler and cleaner is not better, then I won't try to convince you otherwise.  Parts wear faster when they run hotter and dirtier, this is a fact, if you don't believe that, hen that is OK too.  If you don't want to believe the pages from the Crane Reports I posted on page 8, then that's ok too, Arfcom experts like yourself are far superior to Crane Research.

I would not say I meticulously clean my weapon, I leave dirty weapons in the safe for months at a time, in general I clean about every 500 rounds or so.  I have only shot about 400 rounds through the XCR because I have about 20  other guns that begs for attention.  Those around me think I shoot a lot, which is about 500 rounds a month.  But I know on the Internet I don't shoot that much at all, you guys all shoot 5000 rounds a month.  Even if you reload, that's still about $400 a month.  Also time is money so you got to factor in the time to reload, which is about 60 hours!  I guess I can make that much time if I wanted to, but I would rather sleep, hang out at bars, and/or watch tv with my free time.

Don't get mad at me, Crane was the one that said an M4 bolt is not expected to go past 10k rounds, not me.  Only on Arfcom where the mean failure rate for bolts go 2 times that of what Crane found.  If you want I can help you write a letter to them expressing your anger.

On the XCRforums, there is a post of "Ole Dirty", a parts gun FAL that went 15k rounds (and counting) without a clean and has not shown any signs of throat erosion ore excessive headspace.  The original post was on the FALfiles and this post was well documented with pictures.  Everyone that attended FALfest knows and have seen this gun in person.  I am now thinking you are the true expert and Crane has no idea what they are talking about, and those guys that shoot at FALfest must have collaborated "Ole Dirty", he is fiction and not real.

Ok, look.

Here's an actual test.

ALL 40 rifles involved in the test had headspace issues.

If you think one guy posting his dirty FAL on the internet is equal to a test conducted under scientific conditions, you are beyond help.

You have data for only ONE weapon from ONE source and are attempting to stretch this data to make EVERY OTHER weapon sound great even though Crane hasn't published a report on ANY of these other weapons.

The truth is you have no way to know what the XCR is capable of because you've hardly broken yours in and Crane will never take a glance at it. Crane is moving forward with the SCAR. Deal with it.

I only know of one Ole Dirty because I don't know too many guys that:

1) shoot 15k rounds through one rifle
2) willing to throw it in a muddy creek before shooting the 15k rounds
3) never clean the rifle in these 15k rounds

It is pretty cool that some guy at random just built this gun from a random parts kit, properly put it together, and it lasted this long without a clean and yet still hold tight groups.  This goes to show what an FAL is capable of.

I was losing much sleep that SOCOM chose the SCAR over the XCR, thanks to your counseling session above I am better now and am leaning how to deal with it.  For the record, I am not in love with any one gun.  I love them all and want to even own a SCAR one day.  I hope that is ok?

Wow, all I said is I have a old Bushy 20" that has 15,000 rds that has not been cleaned but it has been lubed, it HAS never been in combat.  On a side note I DONT like Bushy but it was cheap and it serves as a testbed.  All I have done is spray it down with Break Kleen.  Is the the XCR a PROVEN setup?    Also can you adjust the LOP on a XCR?

Thats wasnt aimed at you, I figure you do all your work, BTW I have GW, DSE and ATS on my 69

You are helping contributing to the AR legend.  Everyone on Arfcom gets 15-20k out of their AR bolts, even if it is a Bushmaster.

The XCR is proven to me.  I stress my guns hard, I did an artic test once, had to set the XCR down in the freezer to get some ice cream.  Amazingly the XCR did not fall apart.  I also low crawled across my living room floor and the XCR held up.  

Some guys on the XCR forums go 10-15k + rounds.   But what good does this do me?

LOP for stocks?  Yes and no.  If you are using an A2 stock for an XCR then you can not.  If you are using a CTR, then yes you can.  I believe same goes for an AR right?  But I am sure with your A2 stock on your AR's you can adjust LOP.  That's how badass is the AR is.

Ok... now I really can't resist.
Its not that you low crawled across your living room instead of somewhere else. Gotta practice somewhere I suppose. But what gun would fall apart while low crawling that wouldn't be... noticeably flimsy or weak just handling it?
As for putting a weapon in a freezer, I don't know what temperature your freezer holds but most found on your average fridge don't get cold enough to come close conditions found in winter in North CONUS, much less the surplus of humidity that can be the real enemy in cold environments. Liquid H2O expands right above freezing (37-34 deg F) before contracting again. That expansion is what cracks rocks and splits metal open. It isn't until the  -30s F that quality lubes and mechanical systems begin to suffer without better design.

I wish I had some better stories to tell you.  Like how I dragged my weapon across Iraq behind a APC using the same rope through 3 tours, and how I never cleaned it, and it shot 20k rounds in FA no problem... but unfortunately I don't have exciting stories like that.

Where are you getting this shit? You keep making stuff up instead of debating what is actually said.

You seem to have some sort of complex.

I'm not looking for stories. I'm having difficulty understanding what the story proves. I doubt anyone here is accusing the XCR of being such a poor weapon as to be suspectable to such conditions... Now, I do have a friend with a so-called "deep freezer" that gets very very cold (his claim is about -28 to -32 F)... At those temps and lower, one does need to guard their use of a weapon.

No I am not on Robinson's payroll.

If I should be on anyone's payroll, it should be LWRC.  I rave about their weapons more than the others.  I love LWRC because I love AR's, it is just a better AR that runs much cooler and much cleaner.  I love AR's because it is the system I am most familiar with.  I only prefer the LWRC over the XCR because I prefer the look of the AR, also LWRC can use my AR lowers, AR triggers, AR sites,  etc.   XCR only uses AR pistol grips, stocks, and sites.

I also love FAL's.  I prefer the FAL over the XCR because I just feel it is better built gun. I do like it that the XCR uses some features from the FAL, such as the folding stock and the location of the charging handle.  Some things I don't like about the FAL: changing a barrel is a PITA (timing, etc), and it is not really modular.  The DSA railed top cover and handguards are nice, but it is no where near as nice as the one piece railed upper of the XCR, or even the aftermarket rails of the AR.  Since I am not a rich guy, I like the price of the XCR better too..  ParaFAL retails about $2200.  XCR with sites retail for about $1550.

Only thing I think the old skool DI AR has going for it is the ergos.  It is a nice shooting weapon and is the most accurate semi-auto out there.  It is good for a professional Army as long as you regularly clean it.  I clean all my weapons when they have excessive gunk up, it just with an AR, the excessive gunk up occurs a lot sooner than an FAL, XCR, or LWRC... a whole lot sooner.  I doubt the AR's ability to with stand excessive heat with full-auto fire.  This is why Army TM really stresses controlled fire, they just don't want the gun to melt in your hands.  I don't have to worry about this though as  only own semi auto weapons.

So there you have it.  LWRC should pay me now!

Just for you, from now on I will save up all the stories I have heard.  I already got one story where a Bushmaster Bolt went 15k no problem with very little cleaning at all.  Also got another story where someone regularly shot 500-1500 rounds per session, and only cleaned afterwards, no sign of throat erosion or eroded gas ports.

For the second time.

Reread what I wrote.

If you do not acknowledge my statement about the weapons needing to be rebuilt at the end of deployment, we have nothing further to discuss. You live in your own little world and have a difficult time accepting anything that does not fit into that world. The truth is, the world has changed, the military has changed, firing schedules have changed, and you cannot accept this.

OK I don't want you to go so I will acknowledge that.  Yeah but they ran no problems DURING deployment with thousands of rounds and very little cleaning at all.

Yes, they ran fine, we cleaned them after the range sessions, and also when the outsides turned brown. We had no major issues and in fact no malfunctions once we switched to HK mags. This is actually a pretty common theme for everyone I've talked to who had good magazines. Their problems practically disappeared.

I never claimed it doesnt have wear, I just said it has 15,000 rounds through it.  Would I carry it into battle now NO, would I even rate it as my "go to rifle"  NO  All I said was I have a Bushy that Me and my friends have put 15,000 rounds through.  This was bought when Tom still answered phones, before the Bushy Gov contract.  My point was it still works, no internet hype, will someone else get the same results? Dunno, dont care, my point is simple the XCR IS NOT a battle proven platform.  Even if it was allowed in the trials would it have survived?  We will never know.  I do know that Robinson would never be able to produce whats needed.   You never did answer my question about adjusting the LOP.  I also like the FAL, its a proven platform, just because you take a proven desing and repackage do a little reengineering does not mean it will work in the long run.  So at best the XCR is a plinker, rifle to have fun with, but once it breaks all you have is a club, good luck trying to get parts if a ban comes along or your in a SHTF situation.  Everything mechanical will break sooner or later and it usually breaks at the worst time, and or when its pushed.  Its to bad there are not any full auto XCR's in circulation than it could really be used and see what happens, all the these comparisons are done against a M4, how would the XCR do with a happy switch when its pushed, beaten, dropped, and abused in other ways?  We dont have a base point for comparison nor will we.  So until we can give it a fair comparison its not nor ever going to be battle proven.

ETA, one of the things that makes a AK so reliable is loose tollarances, the bolt carrier really doesnt know whats making it work whether its hot gas, piston or a fricken hammer.  Look at how many nations do run the M16 platform sure some of them get them for free or next to nothing but if it was really that bad I doubt they would use them, or as bad as you want them to be made out to be.

And the Arfcom community thanks you for your Arfcom Service.  

Only Arfcom AR's (even Bushmasters) will go 50% over (and counting) the limits of the Mean Failure Rate as discovered by Crane.

First, off, I said show me that it matters to the service life of the rifle.  Just show me. I'm an engineer.  I do this kind of thing for a living.  Just show me the evidence.  If it's a  



Where did that Crane report say that the bolt failure was due to heat and dirt?  Hmmm?  Just what disicpline of engineering do you have a degree in?  And I work for NAVAIR, not NSWC.  


Now you're being an ass.  Face it, you're an XCR fanboy and to you it's the bestest gun in the whole world.  Fine.  But if your going to make that claim, I want you to back it up.  SO far I've heard you make a whole lotta vague hand-waving pronouncements. Baloney. A glance at the XCR forum shows me that the gun has a few problems to work out.

That's OK, but don't crow about how it's so much "better" just yet.

[/quote]

I build all my own ARs, and they all get milspec tubes. I use TangoDown PR-4s, they attach without removing the receiver endplate. You can too! Next?

I talked with someone online who built an AR (upper and lower) using only a set of pliers. At first I didn't believe him but the conversation went to IM and he made a believer out of me. Torquing the barrel nut, installing roll pins, everything. Impressive.

I have had to bang the buttstock on the ground. On a steel plate, once. No broken RETs. If you break a RET doing that, you're doing it wrong, way wrong.

Too many have complained about recent customer service for that claim to do anything but fall on its face.

Wow color me impressed with crayola's.  Another Engineer on the Internet.  On the internet I am a fox hole digger, are you impressed back?

You can call me believe I am an XCR fanboy all you want.  I already stated I love FAL's and LWRC's more.  Also I admit I love AR's because it is the system I am most familiar with, that is whey the LWRC is my favorite, just like an AR only runs cool and clean like an XCR.  But if you want to believe I am an XCR fanboy than I will even help.  What should I do for step one as an XCR fanboy?

Amazing how you are an Engineer but yet you don't know Cooler and Cleaner is better.  You know in the Army TM manual they really stress "controlled rate of fire" for an AR, they do this because they know an AR runs dam hot, and they don't want the gun in your hand.

Yeah, lemme tell ya, my SAW ran so cool that I could fire a dozen belts in a row and grab the barrel with my bare hand, I wouldn't even get a sunburn.

Three gun shooters.. oh yeah I know those guys.  Those are the 300 pound guys in all those tactical gear, right?  I know one thing, everything is a copycat league, once there is perception everyone else copies.  3 gun guys are good because they have skill gun has nothing to do with it.  They all seem to run JP rails and all their guns look alike.

Is Arfcommer a derogatory word?  Did I even imply that?  I have never once personally attacked anyone.  Only thing I said is I sure learn a lot from Arfcommers, like how the average Arfcommer bolt twice as long as what Crane found (the mean).  I hope you don't look down on me when I believe the "Crane Mean Average" over the "Arfcom Mean Average"

That's like saying "Race car drivers have skill the car has nothing to do with it"

I was a M249 gunner myself.  Even still have my weapons card.  Yes the SAW does run hot, but it takes a hell of a lot more rounds per minute than an AR to build up the same amount of heat.

Well I am a racer myself, motorcycles, and I am faster than 90% of the people out there no matter what bike I have.  But when you compete against the best every little bit helps, every little 10th of a second matter.  But you can have an R1 and I have a Goldwing and I will still beat you by 10 seconds (or more).

I did say an AR is the most accurate semi auto out there.  It is not lacking in accuracy.

Big words...