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Link Posted: 12/19/2017 3:59:49 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
Does 2 Unique sell the wrenches? Cheaper than the linked Brownells?
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> a more affordable version of the jig. Key factor here.

2 Unique LLC makes the barrel wrenches that are in use at Windham Weaponry.
Does 2 Unique sell the wrenches? Cheaper than the linked Brownells?
Yes, they sell barrel wrenches. > Link. > Link.

They do not have a barrel extension torque tool that can be attached to a torque wrench like Brownells though.

The JC Machine and Motorsports  jig is $350.00 and that is the price to beat when 2 Unique comes out with their version.
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 4:29:24 PM EDT
[#2]
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That's really nice!

Magpul and Geisellie are rushing to the drawing board as we speak.
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Geissele does not like this style of system... Below is a quote from Bill Geissele from one of the many Reaction Rod threads.

"Something is going to lock up first with that thing. Barrel extension or receiver, it never will be both at the same time. Classical over constrained system."
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 4:41:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 4:56:26 PM EDT
[#4]
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That must mean that you got that price beat.

Damn you guys with welding ability and machinist friends!
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:22:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:24:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:43:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Standby and I'll get you a pic
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:45:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:45:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Here you go.
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:48:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:51:11 PM EDT
[#11]
NP, I'd rather go out in the garage and take pics than sit here and work on this leadership class anyway
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:52:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 6:16:24 PM EDT
[#13]
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NP, I'd rather go out in the garage and take pics than sit here and work on this leadership class anyway
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Hey OP, I have already looked for the pond on Google Earth. Is it possible that it has been filled in since your awesome find?

Not that I'm gonna go down there and start digging or anything.

Also, what would be your guess as to how old this jig is?
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 6:22:18 PM EDT
[#14]
It was one of these drainage ponds like the pic, not sure which one though as I used to run the golf course when I lived in the Security Hill barracks. As for age, I have no idea as I found it in 99 and it looked like it had been there a while and settled down in the mud at the bottom. I only saw it when the water was receded quite a bit.
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 6:31:59 PM EDT
[#15]
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I want a working model before I run my mouth.

(And I wouldn't be against helping a few out, if it's a viable tool.)
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Quoted:

That must mean that you got that price beat.

Damn you guys with welding ability and machinist friends!
I want a working model before I run my mouth.

(And I wouldn't be against helping a few out, if it's a viable tool.)
Your right, there could very well be a good reason it was thrown into that pond... I really have my doubts about that though.
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 6:40:48 PM EDT
[#16]
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It was one of these drainage ponds like the pic, not sure which one though as I used to run the golf course when I lived in the Security Hill barracks. As for age, I have no idea as I found it in 99 and it looked like it had been there a while and settled down in the mud at the bottom. I only saw it when the water was receded quite a bit.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/56078/Capture-395388.JPG
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Wow, the possible location of the actual mystery pond of before their time military armorer's tools!

Thank you for revealing it's secrets.
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 7:45:29 PM EDT
[#17]
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Count me in for one!
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That's really nice!

Magpul and Geissele are rushing to the drawing board as we speak.
Count me in for one!
Magpul already has one.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1015877615/magpul-bev-block-ar-15-action-block

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Link Posted: 12/19/2017 8:10:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 9:05:18 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
It was one of these drainage ponds like the pic, not sure which one though as I used to run the golf course when I lived in the Security Hill barracks. As for age, I have no idea as I found it in 99 and it looked like it had been there a while and settled down in the mud at the bottom. I only saw it when the water was receded quite a bit.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/56078/Capture-395388.JPG
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Very interesting that it would be there.  The only actual USAF gunsmiths are (or were) in a sketchy looking building on Medina Annex.

Now I gotta figure out what that small building is - or was.  That’s close enough to the flightline that it could have been ON the flightline ‘in the day’.

When and why it was dumped aside, that jig must have traveled quite a ways to wind up dumped there.
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 9:22:50 PM EDT
[#20]
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Yeah, but that one lacks the nostalgia and the "we build our own shit" character.
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Yeah, but that one lacks the nostalgia and the "we build our own shit" character.
The Magpul BEV Block also lacks quite a bit of upper receiver support compared to the mystery pond find.
Link Posted: 12/20/2017 1:26:04 PM EDT
[#21]
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Very interesting that it would be there.  The only actual USAF gunsmiths are (or were) in a sketchy looking building on Medina Annex.

Now I gotta figure out what that small building is - or was.  That’s close enough to the flightline that it could have been ON the flightline ‘in the day’.

When and why it was dumped aside, that jig must have traveled quite a ways to wind up dumped there.
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I used to work across from the CATM guys on Medina. My neighbor was actually CATM there a few years before I got there and had never seen anything like this. Since it was on Kelly I'm wondering if it was something from the CATM shop on that base instead of from Lackland.
Link Posted: 12/20/2017 9:18:57 PM EDT
[#22]
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I used to work across from the CATM guys on Medina. My neighbor was actually CATM there a few years before I got there and had never seen anything like this. Since it was on Kelly I'm wondering if it was something from the CATM shop on that base instead of from Lackland.
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That makes sense, but the old Kelly AFB CATM shop wouldn’t have been there, it would have been where the old cop shop was - or nearby anyway, and associated with their armory, because it didn’t need to be anywhere near the size of Lackland’s shop.

I think the old SP headquarters had been on the other side of the flightline, more like around the old Finance building (though I could be quite wrong - they moved everything around to mess with me )
Link Posted: 12/21/2017 12:07:41 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:
Yeah, but that one lacks the nostalgia and the "we build our own shit" character.
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Yeah, but that one lacks the nostalgia and the "we build our own shit" character.
Rather have the BEV myself, but the only reason I pointed it out was due to some one mentioning Magul will be all over it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2017 1:06:05 PM EDT
[#24]
@Tigwelder1971

Any updates?
Link Posted: 12/21/2017 1:26:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 12/21/2017 3:26:52 PM EDT
[#26]
Awesome tool I've never seen one. It was SOP to dispose of all kinds of things in ponds on military arsenals and bases so that's probably why it was there. Look forward to seeing the one Tig is building. Thanks for sharing.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 7:27:00 PM EDT
[#27]
I thought that I should post this here as well.

The 2UniqueLLC barreling jig is now available with a price of $175.00 here. > Link.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 7:40:30 PM EDT
[#28]
My guess... someone stole a rifle or committed a crime with one and needed to change the barrel for bullet finger printing reasons so they stole a tool and chucked the rest of the evidence in the lake that barrel you saw could have been used to murder someone
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 7:41:30 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
I thought that I should post this here as well.

The 2UniqueLLC barreling jig is now available with a price of $175.00 here. > Link.
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That's just a reaction rod basically
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 7:53:49 PM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:

That's just a reaction rod basically
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Basically it is, but it has the charging handle key feature which the Reaction Rod lacks.

Users of this improved tool will not have to deal with sheared indexing pins or badly misaligned sights due to damaged/enlarged indexing pin notches.

The standard Reaction Rod never took the upper receiver or the indexing pin into consideration and is basically only half of a good idea. The 2Unique barreling jig, which is based on the Windham Weaponry barreling jig is what the Reaction Rod should have been.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 8:43:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 9:25:07 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
Basically it is, but it has the charging handle key feature which the Reaction Rod lacks.

Users of this improved tool will not have to deal with sheared indexing pins or badly misaligned sights due to damaged/enlarged indexing pin notches.

The standard Reaction Rod never took the upper receiver or the indexing pin into consideration and is basically only half of a good idea. The 2Unique barreling jig, which is based on the Windham Weaponry barreling jig is what the Reaction Rod should have been.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

That's just a reaction rod basically
Basically it is, but it has the charging handle key feature which the Reaction Rod lacks.

Users of this improved tool will not have to deal with sheared indexing pins or badly misaligned sights due to damaged/enlarged indexing pin notches.

The standard Reaction Rod never took the upper receiver or the indexing pin into consideration and is basically only half of a good idea. The 2Unique barreling jig, which is based on the Windham Weaponry barreling jig is what the Reaction Rod should have been.
@556Cliff

Doesn't the Super Reaction Rod eliminate those "potential" issues? It removes any stress from the pin and keeps the upper receiver loaded to prevent movement.

BTW, I've had an original Reaction Rod for a few years now that I've used hundreds of times (I'm serious, I use it almost daily) and I've never sheared an index pin or stretched the pin notch in an upper. Maybe I'm just lucky. That, or I use my brain and realize the limitations of the tool.

That said, this pond find does look like an improvement over either Reaction Rod design and also wouldn't have to be mounted vertically. I'm betting Tigwelder1971 could fairly easily build these jigs and market them for much less than JC Machine's $350 jig, while still earning a good margin.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 9:36:45 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
All kinds of shit ends up in ponds.

Hammers,boat motors, pistols, and a swing set among the finds here.
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Is no one else wondering why someone would chuck one of these in a pond?.........?
All kinds of shit ends up in ponds.

Hammers,boat motors, pistols, and a swing set among the finds here.
Lots of stuff ended up in area lakes near Fort Hood in the early 70's. I remember cases of M14 mags and other stuff being dumped prior to inspections.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 10:17:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Magnet fishing anyone?
Sounds like you might find some cool stuff.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 10:18:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

@556Cliff

Doesn't the Super Reaction Rod eliminate those "potential" issues? It removes any stress from the pin and keeps the upper receiver loaded to prevent movement.

BTW, I've had an original Reaction Rod for a few years now that I've used hundreds of times (I'm serious, I use it almost daily) and I've never sheared an index pin or stretched the pin notch in an upper. Maybe I'm just lucky. That, or I use my brain and realize the limitations of the tool.
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Yes, the Super Reaction Rod does eliminate those issues but you can only apply torque in one direction at a time unless you reset the brass wedges between every tightening and loosening. It's really a pretty fiddly system to set up and it's not quick and easy to use like the standard Reaction Rod.

Most of the indexing pin shearing issues that I have seen with the Reaction Rod come from trying to remove a stuck/stubborn barrel nut, where the friction between the threads of the barrel nut and the threads of the upper receiver exceeds the clamping force between the face of the upper receiver and the barrel extension flange... Indexing pins shearing during barrel nut installation has happened too, just not nearly as much as during barrel nut removal.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 10:19:46 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
Magnet fishing anyone?
Sounds like you might find some cool stuff.
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Definitely could be some cool shit in there. If I was OP and found this jig and a barrel in there, I would've been going for a swim to see what else I could find. It's probably filled with a bunch of old M16A1 lowers. Aluminum doesn't rust, right?
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 10:22:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yes, the Super Reaction Rod does eliminate those issues but you can only apply torque in one direction at a time unless you reset the brass wedges between every tightening and loosening. It's really a pretty fiddly system to set up and it's not quick and easy to use like the standard Reaction Rod.

Most of the indexing pin shearing issues that I have seen with the Reaction Rod come from trying to remove a stuck/stubborn barrel nut, where the friction between the threads of the barrel nut and the threads of the upper receiver exceeds the clamping force between the face of the upper receiver and the barrel extension flange... Indexing pins shearing during barrel nut installation has happened too, just not nearly as much as during barrel nut removal.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

@556Cliff

Doesn't the Super Reaction Rod eliminate those "potential" issues? It removes any stress from the pin and keeps the upper receiver loaded to prevent movement.

BTW, I've had an original Reaction Rod for a few years now that I've used hundreds of times (I'm serious, I use it almost daily) and I've never sheared an index pin or stretched the pin notch in an upper. Maybe I'm just lucky. That, or I use my brain and realize the limitations of the tool.
Yes, the Super Reaction Rod does eliminate those issues but you can only apply torque in one direction at a time unless you reset the brass wedges between every tightening and loosening. It's really a pretty fiddly system to set up and it's not quick and easy to use like the standard Reaction Rod.

Most of the indexing pin shearing issues that I have seen with the Reaction Rod come from trying to remove a stuck/stubborn barrel nut, where the friction between the threads of the barrel nut and the threads of the upper receiver exceeds the clamping force between the face of the upper receiver and the barrel extension flange... Indexing pins shearing during barrel nut installation has happened too, just not nearly as much as during barrel nut removal.
I understand what you're saying about the Super Reaction Rod, but I disagree about it being "fiddly". In reality all you have to do between tightening a barrel nut and loosening one is to tighten one allen screw on the rod and loosen another. Tightening one screw moves one brass wedge out of the way and loosening the other allows it out to make contact with the opposite side of the upper's ejection port. I undersrand that these barreling jigs don't require any of that, but for home builders and even most armorers, they're just fine. None of us are on a line barreling uppers all day. For those guys, you have awesome barreling jigs like Windham Weaponry's.

I've removed quite a few barrel nuts on factory assembled PSA uppers that required me to use a four foot breaker bar and my 225lb ass hanging off the end and I've still never sheared index pins. Don't get me wrong, I've seen pics of these sheared pins, but I can assure you that it only happens when someone is being seriously stupid, the pin was soft, or something was seriously f**ked up.

Now, with all that said, I'd still like to have one of these pond jigs.

ETA: BTW PSA, I know your shop monkeys assemble 200 uppers a day, but please start having them grease the receiver threads, season them once or twice before final torquing of the barrel nut, and give them a torque wrench. I swear they must have gorillas in there installing the nuts on their FF handguard uppers. Dry as a bone and tight as hell. It's ridiculous.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 11:04:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 11:06:43 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:

I hear ya man!

More than a few BCM uppers too.
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>I swear they must have gorillas in there installing the nuts on their FF handguard uppers. Dry as a bone and tight as hell. It's ridiculous.

I hear ya man!

More than a few BCM uppers too.
I've never had trouble with BCM uppers, but that could be because I do 100 to 1 more PSA uppers. At least the BCM uppers are greased and haven't been dry as a bone. Now BCM taper pins can definitely be a bitch, IME. Lol

Make sure you post up any progress with the pond jig.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 11:15:23 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
I pulled this out of a pond on Kelly AFB 19
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In the Navy we called it throwing it over the side. AF half assing it I guess.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 11:17:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I understand what you're saying about the Super Reaction Rod, but I disagree about it being "fiddly". In reality all you have to do between tightening a barrel nut and loosening one is to tighten one allen screw on the rod and loosen another. Tightening one screw moves one brass wedge out of the way and loosening the other allows it out to make contact with the opposite side of the upper's ejection port. I undersrand that these barreling jigs don't require any of that, but for home builders and even most armorers, they're just fine. None of us are on a line barreling uppers all day. For those guys, you have barreling jigs like the WW one.

I've removed quite a few barrel nuts on factory assembled PSA uppers that required me to use a four foot breaker bar and my 225lb ass hanging off the end and I've still never sheared index pins. Don't get me wrong, I've seen pics of these sheared pins, but I can assure you that it only happens when someone is being seriously stupid, the pin was soft, or something was seriously f**ked up.

Now, with all that said, I'd still like to have one of these pond jigs.

ETA: BTW PSA, I know your shop monkeys assemble 200 uppers a day, but please start having them grease the receiver threads, season them once or twice before final torquing of the barrel nut, and give them a torque wrench. I swear they must have gorillas in there installing the nuts on their FF handguard uppers. Dry as a bone and tight as hell. It's ridiculous.
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Maybe I should have said that the brass wedge system was to fiddly for me... YMMV of course. I rounded out the hex drive slots in the two screws after 3 barrel installation jobs and I realize that this says nothing about the "fiddlyness" of the system but I would have to get some new screws to make it work again.

Maybe a lot of it really comes down to the quality of the indexing pins being used, but I wouldn't really want to rely on the quality of the indexing pin for anything more than the alignment of the sights on the upper receiver and barrel... The upper receiver's indexing pin notch will deform before the indexing pin shears, and if the notch becomes damaged there are ways to deal with that to "fix" your sight alignment but I would rather not have to mess with any of that.

I have heard that quite a few times about PSA assembled uppers, reading about the various issues with them on the forums their assembly quality seems to be pretty poor.
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 11:20:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 11:26:18 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:
Both me and a pal got BCM uppers about 3 yrs ago, neither had grease on the bbl nuts. His was so damn tight that he used a 3 ft cheater pipe to break it loose.  I was sure his clam shell was going to shatter.  He's a big boy too, 280 or so. New nut and some grease with the install, and zero issues. He is still shooting with both uppers.

As for the pond jig copy, I'll post an update once my ass sees some daylight. Gotta work in some 80 percent lowers next week...I have a 3 day window for the mill, then it's tied up on contract for 22 straight.
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Quoted:

I've never had trouble with BCM uppers, but that could be because I do 100 to 1 more PSA uppers. At least the BCM uppers are greased and haven't been dry as a bone. Now BCM taper pins can definitely be a bitch, IME. Lol

Make sure you post up any progress with the pond jig.
Both me and a pal got BCM uppers about 3 yrs ago, neither had grease on the bbl nuts. His was so damn tight that he used a 3 ft cheater pipe to break it loose.  I was sure his clam shell was going to shatter.  He's a big boy too, 280 or so. New nut and some grease with the install, and zero issues. He is still shooting with both uppers.

As for the pond jig copy, I'll post an update once my ass sees some daylight. Gotta work in some 80 percent lowers next week...I have a 3 day window for the mill, then it's tied up on contract for 22 straight.
Using the 5D? Then at least one headed off to braceman, I hope??!!
Link Posted: 1/17/2018 11:31:36 PM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 1/18/2018 12:55:02 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
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No, "cheating". Haas vertical mill. (I'm lazy and opportunistic).

Eta: as for braceman...I need to contact him. Sourcing one through him with engraving is a perfect solution.

Also, this is my virgin trek. Zero experience with 80s. Should be cool.
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Quoted:

Using the 5D? Then at least one off to braceman?!
No, "cheating". Haas vertical mill. (I'm lazy and opportunistic).

Eta: as for braceman...I need to contact him. Sourcing one through him with engraving is a perfect solution.

Also, this is my virgin trek. Zero experience with 80s. Should be cool.
Nice. Forgot I told you about him having them on hand. And I'd say the vertical is the right way to go and the 5D is cheating. Lol. Either is better than my first, which was done using a drill press. Nasty looking results, but fully functional. Has since been cut into about five pieces and properly recycled. Probably got turned into a case of beer cans.
Link Posted: 1/18/2018 1:09:09 AM EDT
[#46]
OP, mind posting this over in the retro section.  If you'd be willing to loan it out, I suspect someone in that forum would be interested in getting it in hand for exact measurements and might turn a batch or two out...John Thomas, NoDak,ect.
Link Posted: 1/18/2018 11:31:33 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP, mind posting this over in the retro section.  If you'd be willing to loan it out, I suspect someone in that forum would be interested in getting it in hand for exact measurements and might turn a batch or two out...John Thomas, NoDak,ect.
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A copy would work just fine, but I'd like to purchase the original from OP just to have it.
Link Posted: 1/18/2018 12:29:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP, mind posting this over in the retro section.  If you'd be willing to loan it out, I suspect someone in that forum would be interested in getting it in hand for exact measurements and might turn a batch or two out...John Thomas, NoDak,ect.
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Some measurements would be nice for those of us who might like to make one.
Link Posted: 1/18/2018 2:08:09 PM EDT
[#49]
It was locally fabbed in the USAF gunsmith shop Medina Annex, Lackland AFB. They've been used for decades.
Link Posted: 1/18/2018 2:15:03 PM EDT
[#50]
GHPorter, that sketchy building is a re-purposed hardened munitions maintenance and storage building.
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