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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR kaboom (Page 2 of 4)

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:28:33 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
First, glad to hear you are ok and are talking about it. That case looks like it was segmented, could bushmaster have done this to inspect the inside of the case? I do not know if anyone would expect Federal to accept liability when you openly admit to using handloads prior to your accident. Many things can appear as a high pressure overload such as an obstruction in the bore. Also a heavy bullet mistakenly loaded over the charge. Not saying any of this is what happened only that in almost every incident like this handloads are the cause in one way or another.

I would think further inspection of the barrel may rule out a stuck bullet or obstruction prior to the accident because even if both bullets make it out, it usually will show a bulged spot in the barrel if not visable, detectable by gauging the bore.

Hope it all works out for you, I wish you a speedy recovery.

Read the original post. No squibs. Last shot was seen to hit the target. The barrel is ok the barrel extension is not. The only reason I mention hand loads is 1) I've never had a problem with my own ammo, 2) I had been shooting them prior to the incident but the round that caused the failure was a Federal manufactured cartidge.

I gave Bushmaster specific directions to recover the case and send it to me. I don't see why they would do anything to the case when they know I need it to prove fault.

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:28:43 AM EDT

[#2]

Holy crap dude! Glad you are ok and I hope that you can get this resolved quickly.

Oh yeah, TAG

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:31:05 AM EDT

[#3]

Holee Schnikees!!!!

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:31:16 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Looking at that case.. with the only real noticeable damage being a nearly perfectly seperated head...

Classic case failure. Reminds me of all things of the Glocks that would blow the crappy federal .40 brass.

XM193 is factory seconds. XM193PD is factory thirds. And, there is a very good reason for them being 2nd's and 3rd's. So, expect Federal to point that out to you, even if it is their fault for putting out a crap batch of ammo.

Glad you alright buddy, hope you get this taken care :)

Interesting .... I didn't know that what I was shooting was "seconds". Just the same, it's a Federal product so they still should be responsible for it ... right?

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:33:28 AM EDT

[#5]

Tag

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:33:39 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Was this factory ammo or a personal reload? I thought kevatc stated in his first post it was reloaded ammo he had done himself? If so, what would a lawyer do for him? It was his ammo.

I'm also not sure why Bushmaster would cover this. No AR is going to stand up to this kind of ammo failure. It was not the weapon that failed.

Just asking.

Re-read the original post. It was a factory manufacturered Federal round. I had been shooting my own handloads but the failure occurred with a Federal round.

Posted: 12/10/2005 12:07:01 PM EDT

[#7]

For all those in the know, is this just an ammo related failure or is it possible for this to be a bolt failure?

Posted: 12/10/2005 12:55:02 PM EDT

[#8]

Glad you're ok. Thanks for sharing your experience. Keep us updated.

Posted: 12/10/2005 1:29:33 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Looks like a high pressure load. See how much brass flowed back into the ejector hole.

+1

I have to agree with Bushmaster on this one. It looks like high pressure to me. The amount of brass that flowed into the ejector hole is impressive. The small piece of the case head blew out from underneath the extractor. There is a lot of sooty residue around the outside of the primer pocket, and the inside of the primer cup is flared out like it was hit with a ball peen hammer. I can't see any of the case web. Perhaps it's folded back into the primer cup. It is interesting to note that the damage to the case, extractor, and bolt carrier is very similar to the damage suffered by SBR7_11 in his pictures. I think the case head separation is a result of the problem, rather than the cause.

Glad you are OK. Let us know what the final results are.

Posted: 12/10/2005 2:51:14 PM EDT

[#10]

A separated case head will cause a load with normal pressures to impart that level of damage on your rifle, easy. It's likely you had weak brass or a flaw in that one case that caused 50,000 psi to blow back into your action.

This was a MAJOR problem in the early days of metalic cartridges. Many actions contain things like pressure relief holes and gas vent holes to deal with separated case heads. The M1903 action was known for blowing to bits by a combination of weak brass, brittle metal, and the lack of a pressure relief hole. The AR-15 lacks any serious design elements to deal with excess pressure, therefore your results.

It's the ammo, it's a flaw, Federal should be liable to pay for repairs to your rifle and your medical bill unless they can prove that it wasn't their round. Since the bolt held together and stayed locked, it ain't Bushmaster's fault. The only thing I can imagine Federal doing is claiming it was your handload and not their loaded ammo. Good luck anyway. Count yourself luck you had no worse damage.

Posted: 12/10/2005 2:53:24 PM EDT

[#11]

For the record, I wanted to state my opinion on this:

1) you CAN'T double charge a .223 round. There isn't enough room

2) a separated case head WILL cause that level of damage

3) the Bushmaster rifle acted as it should when faced with a separated case head

Verdict, bad brass.

Posted: 12/10/2005 3:06:25 PM EDT

[#12]

I remember reading in an old Speer reloading manual that a light charge of rifle powder can cause extreme pressure. This occurs because the powder is designed to burn in a column. A charge so light that it fills less than 1/2 of the case burns across the entire resulting surface (the length of the case) simultaneously. Perhaps the round that caused the damage was grossly under charged at the Federal ammo factory.

Posted: 12/10/2005 3:13:33 PM EDT

[#13]

Did you shoot your handloads until the gun was empty, or did you unload the handloads and load the factory ammo?

Posted: 12/10/2005 4:30:12 PM EDT

[#14]

Just wanted to know, what brass were you reloading? Fedral brass in horrible! They use a very hard brass mixture that gets weak after it has been fired and resized. Stick to winchester for low end plinking loads, and Lapua for match loads.
Icon

Posted: 12/10/2005 4:40:00 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I remember reading in an old Speer reloading manual that a light charge of rifle powder can cause extreme pressure. This occurs because the powder is designed to burn in a column. A charge so light that it fills less than 1/2 of the case burns across the entire resulting surface (the length of the case) simultaneously. Perhaps the round that caused the damage was grossly under charged at the Federal ammo factory.

the wisdom-fu is strong with this one ...

Posted: 12/10/2005 5:06:11 PM EDT

[#16]

Tag for outcome. Please keep us posted.

Posted: 12/10/2005 5:08:36 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Prepare yourself....Colt lovers are inbound

"If you had been using a COLT this wouldn't have happened."

Well, duh!

Rmpl

Posted: 12/10/2005 5:45:35 PM EDT

[#18]

Well it could have been worse for you. Hope Federal makes it right with you.

Posted: 12/10/2005 9:06:37 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Looking at that case.. with the only real noticeable damage being a nearly perfectly seperated head...

Classic case failure. Reminds me of all things of the Glocks that would blow the crappy federal .40 brass.

XM193 is factory seconds. XM193PD is factory thirds. And, there is a very good reason for them being 2nd's and 3rd's. So, expect Federal to point that out to you, even if it is their fault for putting out a crap batch of ammo.

Glad you alright buddy, hope you get this taken care :)

Interesting .... I didn't know that what I was shooting was "seconds". Just the same, it's a Federal product so they still should be responsible for it ... right?

Yeah, the XM193 stuff is considered "seconds", rejected by QC to be used by the military so they box up the nicest of the rejects and sell them as XM193(instead of plain old M193). The worst of the lot ends up in loose boxes/bags/cans and sold as XM193PD. Usually these ones have a lot of dings and even some cracks and damage to the brass.

Posted: 12/10/2005 9:38:59 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Did you shoot your handloads until the gun was empty, or did you unload the handloads and load the factory ammo?

Not sure if I understand your question. I shot my own handloadsin two different mags. Set the AR down, shot my Storm for awhile then loaded up some Federal ammo. No alternating or interchanging of ammo.

Posted: 12/10/2005 9:40:57 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Just wanted to know, what brass were you reloading? Fedral brass in horrible! They use a very hard brass mixture that gets weak after it has been fired and resized. Stick to winchester for low end plinking loads, and Lapua for match loads.
Icon

Reloads have nothing to do with the blow up. It was a Federal manufactured round.

Posted: 12/10/2005 9:48:53 PM EDT

[#22]

I sure hope everyone from here on out that want's to weigh in on this will READ THIS FIRST:

It was a Federal manufactured round that caused the blow up. Not my handloads. The handloads have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the blow up.

It was a Federal manufactured round that caused the blow up. Not my handloads. The handloads have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the blow up.

It was a Federal manufactured round that caused the blow up. Not my handloads. The handloads have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the blow up.

Is that clear enough? Sorry to be an A--hole about this but it seems like some are not reading the original post.

Once again: It was a Federal manufactured round that caused the blow up. Not my handloads. The handloads have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the blow up. They just happened to be what I was shooting immediately prior to the blow up.

Posted: 12/10/2005 9:53:08 PM EDT

[#23]

My question is did you shoot till your magazine of handloads until they where emtpy and then reload the gun with the other ammo, or did you unload the gun manually and reload it with the other ammo?

Posted: 12/10/2005 10:04:56 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
My question is did you shoot till your magazine of handloads until they where emtpy and then reload the gun with the other ammo, or did you unload the gun manually and reload it with the other ammo?

+1... could the bore have been obstructed when the Federal round went off ? Seems strange it was the first round after you finished with your reloads.

Posted: 12/10/2005 10:16:09 PM EDT

[#25]

How is the lower receiver of the gun that blew to hell?

Reason I ask is because magazine wells have been known to swell with truely disasterous kBs. It's only a small reason why I own 3 AR15s, here in California I am up shit creek without a paddle if one of my registered AR15s goes KB. But the good thing is if one goes tits up like this, I have other guns to switch over to. Not that I wouldn't cry for a month if I lost use of one lower that bent to shit in a kB.

If I lost a lower, I'm not sure I could get Bushmaster to manufacture a new one with the same serial number as the lower that went tits up. Though there is hope they would do it so I could get back a functional lower already registered with California.

atleast you weren't this guy...

Handloader who mixed powders by mistake, likely a full charge of handgun powder. Thing did it's best impression of nuclear fission.

Posted: 12/10/2005 10:16:31 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Just wanted to know, what brass were you reloading? Fedral brass in horrible! They use a very hard brass mixture that gets weak after it has been fired and resized. Stick to winchester for low end plinking loads, and Lapua for match loads.
Icon

Reloads have nothing to do with the blow up. It was a Federal manufactured round.

I know it was a factory round, but for future refrance, do you reload fedral brass? If so stop, because this may happen to another one of your firearms, but this time it WILL be one of your handloads.
Icon

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:00:58 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
"If you had been using a COLT this wouldn't have happened."

happens with USGI weps too, typical high pressure blow.

Quoted:
For all those in the know, is this just an ammo related failure or is it possible for this to be a bolt failure?

Solely ammo, bolt is intact. Brass always blows under the extractor, case head separated after the bolt opened from being radially stressed too much , noticed the brass plug extruded into the ejector pin hole.

Light loads can cause this tho it can't be (hasn't been) replicated in the lab. Am looking for a copy of a book referenced in Hatcher's Notebook that he indicates has plenty of information on light loads causing kBs.

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:33:55 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
My question is did you shoot till your magazine of handloads until they where emtpy and then reload the gun with the other ammo, or did you unload the gun manually and reload it with the other ammo?

+1... could the bore have been obstructed when the Federal round went off ? Seems strange it was the first round after you finished with your reloads.

Oh good grief! Did you guys read the original post? No the barrel was not obstructed. I shot 42 rounds, set the gun down, shot another gun, came back to the AR loaded up some Federal and the first shot of the FEDERAL ammo blew my gun up.

The round that immediately proceeded the blow up was seen to hit the target. As per Bushmaster they concur as there was no barrel damage and the round that blew up setn it's slug out the barrel.

Posted: 12/10/2005 11:37:36 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just wanted to know, what brass were you reloading? Fedral brass in horrible! They use a very hard brass mixture that gets weak after it has been fired and resized. Stick to winchester for low end plinking loads, and Lapua for match loads.
Icon

Reloads have nothing to do with the blow up. It was a Federal manufactured round.

I know it was a factory round, but for future refrance, do you reload fedral brass? If so stop, because this may happen to another one of your firearms, but this time it WILL be one of your handloads.
Icon

I have reloaded Federal brass from the case of ammo that I have shot. Some of it has been reloaded 1-2 times. Seems to me Federal uses Lake City brass don't they?

Posted: 12/11/2005 12:42:04 AM EDT

[#30]

lots more kBs

scroll down to the bottom, viewable by TMs only

Posted: 12/11/2005 12:45:57 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Just wanted to know, what brass were you reloading? Fedral brass in horrible! They use a very hard brass mixture that gets weak after it has been fired and resized. Stick to winchester for low end plinking loads, and Lapua for match loads.
Icon

From what the OP said, this round was not a reload, it was xm193, which also means it is not a Federal case- it's Lake City.

Posted: 12/11/2005 7:34:42 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

I have reloaded Federal brass from the case of ammo that I have shot. Some of it has been reloaded 1-2 times. Seems to me Federal uses Lake City brass don't they?

Lake City brass is different (good) than commercial Federal brass (bad).

Posted: 12/11/2005 8:03:01 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Glad to hear that you survived this with relatively minor injuries. Had the headspace on the rile ever been checked at any time prior to this incident? The cartridge case looks like a total case head separation, without really high pressure signs being apparent on the primer. Maybe a cartridge case that was not to spec in terms of case length was fired in a chamber that was in spec? Take care. Charles the Gubsmith.

+1 on the headspacing. That's what I was wondering.

Posted: 12/11/2005 9:13:46 AM EDT

[#34]

Since you won't answer the question. I'd bet 100 to 1 you pulled a bullet when you unloaded the gun, then the new round was jammed back into the case when you loaded. The pressue was cuased by the two bullets needing to be pushed down the barrel and the fact that one bullet was in the case.

Both bullets would leave the barrel and no marks would be found from a squib as they started out touching.

Posted: 12/11/2005 9:35:45 AM EDT

[#35]

Kevatc,

Glad your OK.

Come to the Oregon hometown forums, click on hometown tab, then OREGON.

Posted: 12/11/2005 9:47:47 AM EDT

[#36]

I'm glad you're OK. That case head separation is so clean it looks like it was removed with a lathe.

Posted: 12/11/2005 9:48:05 AM EDT

[#37]

Did you receive this in a SEALED Federal XM193 brown 20-round cardboard box, or was it just loose when you purchased it?]

And WHERE/from WHOM did you purchase said ammunition?

There have been individuals on gun broker and other places selling reloaded LC XM193 brass and trying to pass it off as Federal XM193, which it is not.

I re-read the whole thread, but all you say is that is was Federal factory ammo, apparently non-PD XM193.

Unless it was in sealed 20 round Federal XM193 boxes, you could not know this, I just wanted to confirm.

Posted: 12/11/2005 9:50:14 AM EDT

[#38]

Ouch.

Tag.

Posted: 12/11/2005 9:57:19 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Since you won't answer the question. I'd bet 100 to 1 you pulled a bullet when you unloaded the gun, then the new round was jammed back into the case when you loaded. The pressue was cuased by the two bullets needing to be pushed down the barrel and the fact that one bullet was in the case.

Both bullets would leave the barrel and no marks would be found from a squib as they started out touching.

I thought an obstruction would leave a ring around the barrel.

Posted: 12/11/2005 9:59:52 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

"If you had been using a COLT this wouldn't have happened."

Not true, I saw the results in the early 90's of a Colt Goverment Carbine that Kaboomed! Colt said it was the Ammo, PMC said it was the firearm.

As soon as the question was asked " Who is your product liability insurer? My lawyer wants to contact them." They took action & replaced the complete upper. PMC, if I recall, stuck to their claim that it was the firearm. It wasn't, what it was was soft cases & a powder issue

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:06:40 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:

"If you had been using a COLT this wouldn't have happened."

Not true, I saw the results in the early 90's of a Colt Goverment Carbine that Kaboomed! Colt said it was the Ammo, PMC said it was the firearm.

As soon as the question was asked " Who is your product liability insurer? My lawyer wants to contact them." They took action & replaced the complete upper. PMC, if I recall, stuck to their claim that it was the firearm. It wasn't, what it was was soft cases & a powder issue

I think this was his feeble attempt to insult Colt enthusiasts, obviously with no reason since no one has claimed this.

There is always someone with a Colt inferiority complex trying to stir the pot.

Here is how his post read:

Quoted:
Prepare yourself....Colt lovers are inbound

"If you had been using a COLT this wouldn't have happened."

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:07:08 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I thought an obstruction would leave a ring around the barrel.

Not if they started as stacked bullets. To make a ring one needs to get moving and then get "stopped" for a moment by the other.

people have even loaded stacked bullets on purpose, but of course they were lighter.

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:09:25 AM EDT

[#43]

holy crap, glad you are ok.

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:18:09 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My question is did you shoot till your magazine of handloads until they where emtpy and then reload the gun with the other ammo, or did you unload the gun manually and reload it with the other ammo?

+1... could the bore have been obstructed when the Federal round went off ? Seems strange it was the first round after you finished with your reloads.

Oh good grief! Did you guys read the original post? No the barrel was not obstructed. I shot 42 rounds, set the gun down, shot another gun, came back to the AR loaded up some Federal and the first shot of the FEDERAL ammo blew my gun up.

The round that immediately proceeded the blow up was seen to hit the target. As per Bushmaster they concur as there was no barrel damage and the round that blew up setn it's slug out the barrel.

you should probably add this to your original post too.

I admit I have been guilty of clicking on "Last Post" from the Active Topics page.

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:21:07 AM EDT

[#45]

It has been theorized for some time that small charges of smokeless powder can
Detonate instead of burning.

Can't link to much data right now , but heres an example...

www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109617731/ABSTRACT

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:30:25 AM EDT

[#46]

I was having some difficulty with Federal 308 American Eagle brand. The cases showed signs of over-pressure and there were heavy extractor marks on the case rims. At times the rifle (AR10) would jam as there were extraction difficulties. I decided to pull the bullets from some of the ammo to inspect and weight the powder charges. The powder from some cases poured out in clumps, some would not pour at all. The powder was one solid mass. Federal claimed that the ammo had probably been stored in excessive heat. Since they had no control over storage after shipment, they assumed no responsibility.

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:36:44 AM EDT

[#47]

Tag... scary stuff.

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:43:20 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My question is did you shoot till your magazine of handloads until they where emtpy and then reload the gun with the other ammo, or did you unload the gun manually and reload it with the other ammo?

+1... could the bore have been obstructed when the Federal round went off ? Seems strange it was the first round after you finished with your reloads.

Oh good grief! Did you guys read the original post?....

you should probably add this to your original post too. ...

I admit I have been guilty of clicking on "Last Post" from the Active Topics page.

Actually the question StealthyBlagga and RAGNAR asked hasn't been answered. I'll rephrase it: "When you stopped shooting the reloads, was your magazine empty and did the bolt lock back? Or did you decide to quit after the rifle had chambered a round and then manually ejected that round?" See the issue here? If a round of reloads had been chambered, it's possible that the bullet stayed in the rifle after the case was ejected. Not likely; a reloader knows what powder looks like and is likely to notice a case full of it spilling all over the place. But Federal's suits WILL want to assert that the problem was caused by a bullet left in the chamber through this mechanism. Be 100% certain you're prepared to answer that question WHEN it comes up.

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:50:46 AM EDT

[#49]

you can yell all you want, makes you sound like a child though.

The last round fired has nothing to do with the barrel being blocked by a round you unloaded whos bullet stayed in the throat.

Since you refused to answer the question as asked more than once, I can only assume you already knew what I was getting at.

Case heads can fail for multiple reasons. A case head that fails becuase of only the case head and not from overpressure and not from a faulty gun does not ussually cause significant damage to the gun as the pressure is reduced, do to the case head failure.

For a failure like yours to happen their needed to either be a gun problem or a pressure problem.

You can't get enough powder in a 5.56 to cause what happened to your gun. So either a bullet was in the throat, or somehow the bullet in the round was pushed back into the case. Regardless of what bushmaster says you can't get too much pressure in a 5.56 unless something else happens.

I've been teaching the M16/Ar system for 20 years in Ranger Batt, SF, Gunsite and with my own company. I have actually watched millions of rounds go down range times three or four minumum. Everybodies reload are perfect, of course they are, thats why 99% of the time when we see a gun blow up, or a squib, or a pulled round it is a reload.

So bushmaster tell you it the ammo and you decide they are right. Federal tells you it can't be the ammo and you decide they are wrong.

Posted: 12/11/2005 10:57:40 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
It has been theorized for some time that small charges of smokeless powder can
Detonate instead of burning.

Can't link to much data right now , but heres an example...

www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109617731/ABSTRACT

I have stayed out of this thread, watching mind you at how some people should just not post what they are thinking...

But, I will chime in on this. I am in the "can detonate" camp, much of my military background is is exlosives/demo and I do know of some tests that have demonstrated this. The difference between conflagration and detonation is a big difference -- in layman's terms, one is the self substaining and super rapid burning of a fuel while the later is the sudden and total release of all stored energy.

Chemistry students can attest to the possible release of stored energy when the nitrogen (common) bond is broken... when you have true detonation, the brisance is much higer and much more destructive. The shock wave on non-nuclear explosion can travel above 30,000FPS and plastisize nearly any solid they encounter.

The volume of the container... type of material in consideration and many other factors are in play. The initiation versus detonation step, sypathetic responce, ability for free movement, etc...

That said... I have to bite my tonugue on a few things people think about the pictures of the damaged rifle, but I will say that the level of damage is neither sufficient or consistant with a true detonation.

eta: oh what the hell, I've tried not to throw facts in the face of some people on here, but RAGNAR and Tweak and others already have said this. That is clearly overpressure, the failure has all the markings of high pressure and as stated the only way to reach this level is (1) Bullet setback or bore obstruction (2) Wrong cartridge components.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR kaboom (Page 2 of 4)

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