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Posted: 1/6/2006 4:16:47 PM EDT
[#1]
I personally load 28 for basicaly the same reasons mentioned above and because it's what works best for me, I do not do something just because some expert says to do it but if you look around just about every expert recommends loading 28 so I do through some weight into what they say.
I understand that a 30red mag does easily hold 30rds but at times it can be difficult to load a full 30 on a closed bolt. If the time comes and I need to use my AR to save my life I want to try and eliminate any potential problems I could have and possibly not being able to reload a full 30rd mag could be a problem I do not wish to encounter. If loading 30 works for you great keep doing it, but for me it's 28 |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 4:30:53 PM EDT
[#2]
All my 30rd Thermolds and USGI mags stay loaded at 30. And still to this day no problems unless I shoot wolf.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 4:33:07 PM EDT
[#3]
We do it different. We load all of our 30 rounders w/ 25.
Why? Not function. It's math. We get all of our dept rifle ammo from Black hills, which come in 50 rd (in .223) boxes. One box is 2 mags. No problems getting the mags to seat in a rifle w/ a closed bolt, and it's easy to keep track of ammo use that way. Also, frankly, if we have to shoot more than 25 rounds with an AR (the most rounds fired in anger so far at my PD w/ an AR is 3 - by me), something has gone terribly wrong. Maybe the extra 5 would be good, but I really don't see it as to big of an issue. And it appeases the bean counters. Oh, and I keep a 20 rounder in my rifle, and 30 (er . . I mean 25) rounders in my tac vest (w/magpuls) for reloads. Simple, huh? 
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Posted: 1/6/2006 4:36:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Pat says 28........................for good reason, when it matters. Anybody questioning that has their head up their a$$.......................seriously. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 4:41:25 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 1/6/2006 4:41:36 PM EDT
[#6]
For the range I do 30, for carbine classes and training I do 28
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Posted: 1/6/2006 4:49:49 PM EDT
[#7]
as stated in the new s.w.a.t. magazine
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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:54:09 PM EDT
[#8]
+1 |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:01:34 PM EDT
[#9]
I do 30, except on my mags with ranger magpulls with green followers. They will not work with the bolt closed, but 29 does fine. I see no need to drop to 28.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:03:27 PM EDT
[#10]
This is a topic that comes up every now and then, so a year or more ago I asked a buddy of mine about it. He is a member of the U.S. Army Special Forces, and has spent a year in Iraq and a few other hell holes so I value his opinion highly. When I asked him about down-loading mags he said he had never heard of it. They have 30 round mags so they put 30 rounds in them. So if the Special Forces aren't afraid to load to capacity, then neither am I.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:05:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Then why is the guy who specializes in training Special Force types saying different? |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:15:02 PM EDT
[#12]
I've actually been starting to download the mags.... Helps to keep me from blowing throu the ammo cases....
 And yes it actually works..... Slap a happy switch on yours and give it a try... Usually: 15-18 in 20's 25-28 in 30's Although for anything else.... I wouldn't hesitate too load(no problems here) 20 in the 20's & 30 in the 30's..... |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:20:30 PM EDT
[#13]
I have no idea. I just know that my buddy (a Captain in the 10th SFG) and his team load mags to capacity. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:23:57 PM EDT
[#14]
I don't understand why. I took Pat's class and max loaded mags are a PITA to load on a closed bolt, sometimes impossible, something I'd NEVER want to happen anywhere, much less on a battlefield. If I drop a mag, I lose time; if your friend drops a mag, he's got a hell of alot more at stake. Pat's risk/reward description made perfect sense to me. Embarrassment was the only bad thing that happened to me when I fired my freshly "reloaded" weapon and felt my "freshly reloaded mag" hit my toes. YMMV. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:25:09 PM EDT
[#15]
30 means 30...
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:29:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Mongo, why did Pat say to drop 2 rounds to 28? Why not just drop one round to 29, that is all I need to do for my mags with ranger magpulls to load with closed bolt.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:34:41 PM EDT
[#17]
More assurance that the mag will positively seat on a closed bolt. The risk of not seating mag far outweigh the two extra rounds when your mag (with 30 rounds) is laying on the floor. It had little to nothing do with Magpul followers, but they do introduce their own level of uncertainty as far as capacity goes. It's simple, you either want you mags to seat 100% of the time during a tac reload and you do what is necessary to assure that happens OR You never do tac reloads, and love to slap the bottom of your mags with the palm of your hand, so it's a nonissue to you Take a class, shoot some run-and-gun competitions.......................get off the bench and really use the weapon. Most here saying "30 means 30" will change their tune. I'm sure of it. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:36:34 PM EDT
[#18]
I was assigned to 1st Platoon, Guard Company, Marine Barracks Guam as my first duty station. This was 1986. We were issued 54 rounds in wooden blocks from the armory window for duty. We loaded 2 magazines of 28 rounds each. The mags were old, and the springs/followers/feed lips were in pretty bad shape.
28 rounds helped ensure reliability. New mags would have been smarter, but Guam was not high on the money priority list. It was about half way through my tour that we finally got A2's, but I never did see any new magazines. Still, even downloading the mags, hardly a day went by that somebody didnt found a loose round or two in the bottom of a magazine pouch. I never did feel real comfortable carrying that little ammo on duty, but hell, Marine PFC's arent supposed to have any opinion except the one they were issued. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:37:20 PM EDT
[#19]
The reason to down load by 2 with USGI is for seating on a closed bolt. As stated this allows a tactical reload. You often see people do a tactical reload with 30 rounds and have to pound the hell out of the mag base to seat it or failing that you do occasionally see either a mag falling out or them fire one round and have to do a re-seat and rack to fire a second round. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:40:49 PM EDT
[#20]
This takes time and focus off your target, whatever that target is. Time and focus are two things that come at a premium in competition, or even worse, on a battlefield. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:41:39 PM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:46:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Yep, that's why my armchair commando ass spends his own time and money attending training. It would be foolish to plan for the zombie attack, load your mags to full 30rd capacity and have nothing to fall back on except adolescent range blasting and subMOA paper punching. Training is as close to a zombie attack as any of us are going to get to. Take your 30rd mags to a class and see. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:47:48 PM EDT
[#23]
30
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:59:49 PM EDT
[#24]
I understand the reason for it. My question was more of why it needed to be 2 rounds. Couldnt you do one round, putting some slack in the mag spring, but still have as much capacity as possible? |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:04:33 PM EDT
[#25]
um, don't know who pat is, but the USMC who's been around since 1775 says to use 30. IT's worked in countless firefights, if you want to question that logic go ahead, i'm sure this pat guy knows better than the centuries of combat experience of the finest group of killing machines stomp mudholes in heads across the globe |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:08:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Went to boot and SOI in 89 , TBS in 94 and EMP instructors course in 04, at all 4 places was trained 28. Having been part of the gun club for quite a while, I can say Pat knows more than about 95 percent of his follow devil dogs when it comes to gun fighting. Most Marines know how to shoot, but they don't know much about gun fighting. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:11:16 PM EDT
[#27]
dude you're old
 anyways i went in 97, went to range coach school in 01 and small arms instructor course in 02, still used 30.. I did however talk to a buddy who was a Ranger adn they did 28 (BTW: Instant Messaging is the greatest invention in communication since the telephone) 
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:18:22 PM EDT
[#28]
You might want to read this: bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm Section I. a. M16 Series of Assault Issue #1: Magazines Discussion: The majority of the issues experienced with the M16 series rifles in theatre were attributable to the magazines. Most problems reported occurred from loading the M16 series magazine with 30 rounds. One problem was that the magazine is difficult to seat in the weapon with the bolt closed and the magazine tends to spread apart at the top, increasing the difficulty with insertion. Most soldiers relieved these problems by loading less than 30 rounds. One soldier recommended 25 rounds to ease the math associated with ammunition status. No one complained about the reduced capacity. Recommendations: In the short term, advise the AOR to fill magazines with a maximum of 28 rounds and provide units with magazines issued with RFI. In the long term, the quality and the design of the M16 series magazine must undergo review. Combat Developers should consider whether 30 rounds per magazine are operationally required. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 9:54:26 PM EDT
[#29]
30 here
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Posted: 1/6/2006 9:57:59 PM EDT
[#30]
I load 30 here.
Just a question for those who load 28. If you load up a 20 round magazine do you still stay minus 2 rounds and only load 18? |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:08:51 PM EDT
[#31]
You know, I've heard others mention that their USGI mags are only capable of holding 28. I gotta tell you, I have a ton of mags that I use, probably 50/50 green vs. magpul followers, and not one of them struggles to hold 30 rounds. This is probably 60 mags that I rotate for range use....older colts, labelle, sanchez, center industries, as well as newer DSG, NMTG, H&K, etc. I'm not forcing the rounds in, either. Just a normal effort. I guess I'm lucky. edit to add: for tactical reloads, a full 30 can be a struggle to seat with one in the chamber. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:46:16 PM EDT
[#32]
+99999999999999999999999999 |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:52:58 PM EDT
[#33]
21.596823 rounds.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 11:21:09 PM EDT
[#34]
im not a cop or rambo and just use my AR as a ranch rifle and for hunting so its no big deal for me. 30 rounds a mag for me and it works every time. this whole debate i think is petty at best, use what ever works for i say.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 11:31:24 PM EDT
[#35]
Pat Rogers |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 12:25:19 AM EDT
[#36]
Oohraa! 
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Posted: 1/7/2006 2:52:30 AM EDT
[#37]
A simple question for all you "30ers" out there is this:
Do you actually use your weapon where a tac reload is employed and necessary for some type of success - ie: you are reloading with a closed bolt you don't have the time or luxury to transfer your weapon from the ready position to slap the bottom of a magazine to ensure it seats. That's the core of this question. If you don't practice this and you are answering "30", you have no clue as to what or why. As always, YMMV. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:18:28 AM EDT
[#38]
That's funny
 I could only get 26 rounds in mine.  
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:23:46 AM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:26:40 AM EDT
[#40]
Nope, but have seen trouble trying to feed the first round into the chamber on a 30 rounds loaded 30 rounder. This was on a military, new, milspec rifle, ammo and mag. Not saying this malfunction is the rule, just saying i've seen it happen. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:41:11 AM EDT
[#41]
Just an observation from an "mature" person of some experience.
This applies ONLY if one is using a LULA. After I drop in and seat the last round in the mag, I flip the LULA lever like I was going to load another round. If it moves to where I can ALMOST load the next round, then I know the mag will seat on a closed bolt. If it barely moves then it won't. I have tried this several times and it works with both 20 and 30 rounders.  I will say that every new USGI "brand name" 30rd mag I have recently purchased with the latest iteration of Magpul followers installed, seats with "average" effort with 30rds on a closed bolt.  Does it seat as easily as it would on an open bolt? No, but neither does a mag loaded with only 28, 15 or even two rounds. There has to be some resistance when seating on a closed bolt. I have no idea what the actual resistance difference is in seating a mag loaded with 28 vs. 30 rounds on a closed bolt, but under "normal" stress, I can't tell. Just my $.02. 
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:43:59 AM EDT
[#42]
From the Marine Corps Close shooting POI
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:52:20 AM EDT
[#43]
+1 Trying to seat a mag with 30 rounds in my rifle with a closed bolt is a bitch. Have to slap the bottom of it HARD, and 50% of the time even that doesn't work. The mag falls out as soon the bolt is cycled. I say 28. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:53:12 AM EDT
[#44]
If your 30 round mag doesn't reliably hold 30 rounds, it's broken.
If your rifle doesn't reliably accept full 30 round mags, it's broken. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:08:44 AM EDT
[#45]
There. Fixed it for you. See STLRN below. Carry on.
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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:29:10 AM EDT
[#46]
On another list, we've been having this debate. So a couple of us did some testing.
I did mine today - good thing too, for when I was in the basement doing it, my water main started leaking all over my supplies! Nut just got loose I guess. Who would guess a test would turn into a crisis? I had intended to set the mag bottom on a scale, and push down on the gun to get a reading - but my scale wouldn't handle that.  So, I have: 1 DPMS 1 Professional Ordnance carbon 15 1 Rock River Arms 3 Bushmasters 6 mags, 20 round, fully loaded 13 mags, 30 round, fully loaded All bolts were closed on all weapons. I selected one gun at a time, and inserted each mag and pushed on the bottom until it seated. I removed the mag, tried the next, repeated until I finished the stack. No mags had to be slammed or hit to seat. All were just pushed. ALL MAGAZINES SEATED IN ALL 6 WEAPONS The RRA was a bit tougher, as was one of my Bushmasters. But we are talking degrees here. There was some variability between mags, and if the top bullet wasn't seated correctly that had an effect also. End Results were exactly what I expected - ALL MAGAZINES SEATED IN ALL 6 WEAPONS WITH BOLTS CLOSED So that's 6 guns x 19 magazines = 114 combinations/insertions - Paul |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:54:22 AM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 1/7/2006 7:14:47 AM EDT
[#48]
 ETA: No body is saying that loading to maximum capacity will not work... We are saying that loading to maximum capacity has been known to be unreliable... Ever hear of "Id rather be safe than sorry"? |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 7:35:03 AM EDT
[#49]
/shrugs/ not taught that way. I'm far too lazy to go look anything up on the net, and I didn't save the green monster, but 28, 29 and 30 are always loaded and always tracers. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 7:39:28 AM EDT
[#50]
well, I've got 4 of them, handled a hundred or so and they've all worked with 30... Maybe I've just got good luck, I mean I *AM* part Irish.
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