+1           Thats how I feel about all this

I posted at link to Whittaker's web-site some where in this mess of a thread.  Anyway, I went down there today (was wanting to pick up another RRA stripped .223 lower, had pistol only) and checked out the price on the AR-10T.  $1679.  If thats what you want, you can probably have it shipped to your local FFL, and the paperwork completed for another $25-$40.  Or least use his price to lower the local guy if he is higher which I would imagine he is.

Our, you can buy a DPMS and the FAL, or buy just the DPMS and 1000 rounds of .308 ammo to tinker with.

I decided on an AR-10 after looking at and shooting several weapons that belonged to friends.

Then I posted this. Only got a few answers.
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=62&t=350301


I also posed the question to Jim Rawles at www.Survivalblog.com and got this answer.



Letter Re: Advice on Buying AR-10 Rifles

James,
I live outside of Boise, [Idaho] on 40 acres with a deep well and have most everything ready for a jump to my brother’s new ranch in Montana, if (when) the SHTF. While my place will be occupied by my friends that don’t have anywhere to go and /or want to stay in the area. I will leave for a better Bug Out Location where I and my family can better survive long term. I only live here because it is a good job and I can’t find anything even close to pay in the part of Montana that my brother lives in. He is a doctor and can afford the remote life style.

I would like your input,. My brother and I are getting ready to buy a pair of .308 semiauto rifles and for the most part I like the Armalite AR-10 with an ACOG scope. This would be our defensive long range (250 to 500+ yard ) rifle. Any recommendations as to something “better” than a factory model, do you know of someone else building something with .308, reliable magazine design. While rails and collapsible stocks are cool and I would like them, they are not necessary for the intended purpose. I have looked at [the] DPMS [AR-10] but I also here a lots of complaints from people who actually own the weapon. Thanks, E.

JWR Replies: Aside for Eugene Stoner's relatively dirty gas tube action (which can be mitigated with regular cleaning), the only drawback to most of the AR-10s on the market is the high cost of extra magazines. Most AR-10s use variations of M14 magazines which can cost up to $40 each. However, a few brands of AR-10s use standard FAL magazines which can often be found for under $8 each! So, with that in mind, I would recommend the Brushmaster AR-10 (now out of production) and the RRA (Rock River Arms) LAR-8 A SurvivalBlog reader was recently told by a Bushmaster customer service representative that Bushmaster sold its tooling and rights for their .308 rifle about a year ago to Rock River Arms.

The AR-10 is a fine rifle choice for your circumstances. They can be quite accurate, so they are ideal for open country--like the majority of Montana. Just be sure to get at least one of your AR-10s set up for long range shooting. Get a full length (20") barrel and fixed stock flat top ("A4") model that will readily take optics mounted low enough to provide a consistent cheek weld. The ACOG TA-01 or TA-11E would be good versatile day/night scopes. They are available from a number of Internet vendors including CGW. (I noticed that they currently have the TA-01 .308 BDC scope on sale.) But since you are planning on open country shooting, make sure that at least one of your long-barreled .308 rifles is set up a with an adjustable magnification Mil-Dot or ART scope in its primary configuration, with perhaps an ACOG as a spare if you can afford it.





I think with Gen II mags and with forged uppers (hopeing to move on) that I will have a good SHTF / TEOTWAWKI long range defensive weapon.

Quoted: Tell me one example of a DPMS extruded upper failing because it's extruded. Hell prove to me that any DPMS 308 upper receiver has ever failed. Didn't think so.

Indeed.  The top makers and the military use forged randomly.  It's all a conspiracy against vendors who wish to cut corners.  There really is no difference at all between extruded and forged.  None; whatsover...

Wait, uh...that's not quite right is it?  Jumping up and down and telling us that extruded AR's are equivalent to forged AR's merely exposes your failed rationalizations.

It IS a technical forum, and I've brought to light that extruded is widely known to be an inferior construction method in the world of AR's.  It's a fact.  Yet here we are still discussing it.  In fact, we've discussed I-beams too.  Even though I've never seen a 60' extruded I-beam on any AR before...

Stomp your feet or whatever, but even most other people who disagree with me about which to buy agree that forged is a superior manufacturing technique in AR creation.

Sorry.  Now you should probably just admit it, so we can move on.

By the way, I haven't seen any loose, sloppy, cast, cheap stock DPMS 308's yet. 3/8 MOA is 3/8 MOA no matter how you slice it, and only in your mind does the brand name have an effect on how any firearm shoots.

Top Shelf DPMS SASS

I'm curious, does DPMS warranty MOA or sub-MOA performance?  ArmaLite warranties that their AR-10(T) WILL shoot MOA or better, or they will make it right.

Meaning that if you get an AR-10(T) that shot 1.25" groups at 100yds using factory match ammo, ArmaLite will replace the barrel or tweak the rifle until it shoots 1" or better. So does GA Precision., and many of the true precision shops.  It's why people pay the money for those truly top flight products.

So does DPMS back their product in this manner?  Or if you get a 2 MOA shooter are you stuck with a $350 barrel replacement?

Make sure you read the link I added, look at the group sizes.  Remind yourself that a lot of people ONLY shoot at 100yds, and don't have the skill to shoot 200yds+.  So I wonder how many folks plopped down $2000+ on a DPMS SASS and got similar results?  I've heard of one other since I brought the subject up.  Start of a trend?

The DPMS is an economy rifle that happens to shoot well.  So does the AR-10, and it's guaranteed to do it.

Yet another reason why the ArmaLite (T) offers a superior edge to the economy line from DPMS.

If you want a precision AR, that is guaranteed to be precise, and offers superior construction for your hard earned dollars, then the AR-10(T) seems like the most solid investment.  Or better yet, for $300 more get one of the best shops to assemble you a semi-custom using a custom grade barrel @ $2200 base.

If you ultimately can't shoot MOA @ 100yds, or just want a "good enough" shooter for under $1000, and want it in .308 then the DPMS rocks that price point.  Go forth and prosper with your choice.

For heaven's sake, quit trying to make shit up about extruded being "just as good as" forged.  We ALL know it's not, and it's really starting to make a technical thread not so technical.

I'd hate to hear later on, that someone believed you about AR extrusions, just because they disagreed with what I had to say.  Extrusions are not equal to forgings in the AR world.  Period.

Not disputing your claims, so make sure you tell everybody with a DPMS GAP that it is a inferior product, and furthermore tell gap they are makeing two different lines of AR gaps the SUPERIOR line and the INFERIOR line. It is well noted you are a AR10 advocate, I however believe that both DPMS and ARMALITE 308's are great products, I have had both and dont see anything inferior about my DPMS.

Quoted: Not disputing your claims, so make sure you tell everybody with a DPMS GAP that it is a inferior product...

Psst, word has it the the 'smith @ GAP who does the .308 AR work prefers to work with the DPMS product.

I don't think he likes the AR-10 mags from what I have been told 3rd hand...

HHHMMMM...Just to change it up a bit...

No. 2 West Virigina just lost, Looks like No.1 Missouri is going to lose...

Quoted: No. 2 West Virigina just lost, Looks like No.1 Missouri is going to lose...

The Ohio State University anyone??

Quoted: Quoted: No. 2 West Virigina just lost, Looks like No.1 Missouri is going to lose... The Ohio State University anyone??

Nah, I think the BCS brains should let Notre Dame play Appliachain State...The winner could be the DI and DII champs

Isn't that so cool you can put up just the part of my post you want instead of the whole thing. I dont care what the reason,my point is if GAP has no problem makeing a DPMS and as you say prefer to build a DPMS ( I DONT KNOW WHAT THEY PREFER) then in my mind and most likely many many others DPMS IS NOT A INFERIOR 308! This all started when i said I would take the DPMS+FAL over just the AR10T and have know regrets. just my 2cents. Thats what the post was about.

Quoted: DPMS IS NOT A INFERIOR 308!

You're right!!!  Extruded uppers are superior!!

Just ask Colt, FN, LMT, Knights Armament, Heckler & Koch, ArmaLite, Bushmaster, BCM, Sabre Defense, LWRC, RRA, and CMT/Stag.  They will all confirm that forged is inferior to extruded.  Call and ask them why they use what they use.

I'm sure the first words out of their mouth will be, "Forging is a cheaper process that's better for AR parts."

Er, maybe not...

Quoted: Nah, I think the BCS brains should let Notre Dame play Appliachain State...

height=8

Quoted: height=8 Quoted: DPMS IS NOT A INFERIOR 308! You're right!!!  Extruded uppers are superior!! Just ask Colt, FN, LMT, Knights Armament, Heckler & Koch, ArmaLite, Bushmaster, BCM, Sabre Defense, LWRC, RRA, and CMT/Stag.  They will all confirm that forged is inferior to extruded.  Call and ask them why they use what they use. I'm sure the first words out of their mouth will be, "Forging is a cheaper process that's better for AR parts." Er, maybe not...hinking.gif

see now you are trying to say something i never said. you had nothing to say about my comments so you tried to make things up. stick to your ar10 i'll be open minded and try different things and continue to find like i have that there are other products out there that are fine products. bash DPMS all you want people who own them know better!

Quoted: see now you are trying to say something i never said. you had nothing to say about my comments so you tried to make things up.

If you are comparing two methods of making something...

One will be judged superior.  Making the second one inferior in comparison to the first; by default.  Is this really that hard to understand?

Quoted: ...stick to your ar10...

Thanks, I will.

i'll be open minded and try different things and continue to find like i have that there are other products out there that are fine products.

Congratulations?

bash DPMS all you want people who own them know better!

Indeed.  It's usually the same one's who end their thorough analyses with, "which makes it good enough."

two methods of makeing something makes them different. Is different always better or worse? when someone asks you to show where this has caused a problem you change the subject. When you say buy a gap and i point out DPMS GAPS and ask you if this makes them inferior, yep you got it YOU CHANGE THE SUBJECT. How hard is this to understand? you have one thing to say and when anyone tells you its not a concern you find a way to say the same thing in a different way and CHANGE THE SUBJECT. you dont want to do anything other than try to prove that ar10's are the best, well every one is different like it or not some DPMS rifles are better than some armalites and vice versa. I told you ive owned both and my DPMS IS BETTER, dont care if you agree.

All of my .308s are wood and steel.

That said, if I was going to go with an AR in .308 it would be an Armalite or a Knights/Stoner.

I will NEVER buy a DPMS product.

SHIVAN,I stand corrected all you do is try to piss people off! dont ever let anyone tell you you have no talent, I'll vouch for you.

If you like your DPMS and the extruded lower/upper then why worry about what Shivan has to say? I got into a mere discussion about the same with an employee a KAC last year at Biggerhammer about it. I brought up the fact that Armalite uses forgings and they are stronger/better. At that time (last I know they still do) KAC uses extruded recievers for the SR-25, he was quick to point out they didn't use castings. I said it still ain't as strong as a forging and he didn't disagree. Point is the SR-25 is a wonderful rifle and I love the looks of it too. Prettiest .308 AR there is and I drink Armalite Kool Aid. Here is the deal though, bottom line forgings are stronger and that means their better for weapon applications, that's not saying a extrusion can't be used safely. I highly doubt your DPMS or anyone else's SR is going to blow up one day. You made your choice, now be happy and go burn some powder with that bad boy...

height=8

Quoted: If you like your DPMS and the extruded lower/upper then why worry about what Shivan has to say? I got into a mere discussion about the same with an employee a KAC last year at Biggerhammer about it. I brought up the fact that Armalite uses forgings and they are stronger/better. At that time (last I know they still do) KAC uses extruded recievers for the SR-25, he was quick to point out they didn't use castings. I said it still ain't as strong as a forging and he didn't disagree. Point is the SR-25 is a wonderful rifle and I love the looks of it too. Prettiest .308 AR there is and I drink Armalite Kool Aid. Here is the deal though, bottom line forgings are stronger and that means their better for weapon applications, that's not saying a extrusion can't be used safely. I highly doubt your DPMS or anyone else's SR is going to blow up one day. You made your choice, now be happy and go burn some powder with that bad boy...Very well said

Quoted: SHIVAN,I stand corrected all you do is try to piss people off!

If you are getting "pissed off" while discussing a topic on the internet, you might want to go shooting or something.  Seriously.

Quoted: If you like your DPMS and the extruded lower/upper then why worry about what Shivan has to say?

Precisely what I've been trying to say....

Buy whatever the hell you want, but stop trying to tell us that what you bought has the best features when they clearly don't.

Quoted: At that time (last I know they still do) KAC uses extruded recievers for the SR-25, he was quick to point out they didn't use castings. I said it still ain't as strong as a forging and he didn't disagree.

I did not know that, I was told that they used forged uppers in their SR-25's, from what I thought was a reputable source, though not KAC itself.

Wonder if Trey Knight will answer an email?

Quoted: Indeed.  The top makers and the military use forged randomly.  It's all a conspiracy against vendors who wish to cut corners.  There really is no difference at all between extruded and forged.  None; whatsover...

So basically you're talking out of your ass again. I asked you to provide an example, YOU COULDN'T DO IT!
By the way, tell me where I once said extrusions are equal to hammer or drop forgings. Again, didn't think so.

Wait, uh...that's not quite right is it?  Jumping up and down and telling us that extruded AR's are equivalent to forged AR's merely exposes your failed rationalizations.

Tell me once where I said they were equal. I didn't. You know that though, this is just your way of trying to get out of making yourself look ignorant. You can try and twist my words all you want, because that's the ONLY way you even have an argument.

It IS a technical forum, and I've brought to light that extruded is widely known to be an inferior construction method in the world of AR's.  It's a fact.  Yet here we are still discussing it.  In fact, we've discussed I-beams too.  Even though I've never seen a 60' extruded I-beam on any AR before...

Forgings are superior, but extrusions aren't junk as you like to think. KAC, FN, Magpul, the list goes on. There are tons of companies who make products superior than both the DPMS and Armalite rifles that use extrusions. I guess you had better start telling people SR25's, Masada's, and SCAR's are junk. By your logic practically all rail systems are junk too. You better go tear your house down and get the extruded supports out of it too.

Stomp your feet or whatever, but even most other people who disagree with me about which to buy agree that forged is a superior manufacturing technique in AR creation.

Again, another pathetic attempt at putting words in my mouth. Come on Ed, I know you can do better than that. Well, at least at one time I thought you could. The fact you've done the same thing to multiple other people in this thread and been called on your bullshit should be a pretty healthy sign that maybe you should shut your mouth and go offer advice in a topic where you have at least some clue of what it is your spouting out.

Sorry.  Now you should probably just admit it, so we can move on.

Admit what? Really, I'd like to know.

Top Shelf DPMS SASS

Wow. One article done by a magazine that has a bias against DPMS so harsh it isn't even funny only gets a 1MOA 10 shot group from one certain rifle. That's really proving something.

I'm curious, does DPMS warranty MOA or sub-MOA performance?  ArmaLite warranties that their AR-10(T) WILL shoot MOA or better, or they will make it right. Meaning that if you get an AR-10(T) that shot 1.25" groups at 100yds using factory match ammo, ArmaLite will replace the barrel or tweak the rifle until it shoots 1" or better. So does GA Precision., and many of the true precision shops.  It's why people pay the money for those truly top flight products.

Well, other than a few rare cases, I don't think it's common for any DPMS stainless barreled rifle to shoot over 1MOA.

So does DPMS back their product in this manner?  Or if you get a 2 MOA shooter are you stuck with a $350 barrel replacement?

Buy one and find out for us Ed. I don't know, but I'm not going to ASSume everything like you do.

Make sure you read the link I added, look at the group sizes.  Remind yourself that a lot of people ONLY shoot at 100yds, and don't have the skill to shoot 200yds+.  So I wonder how many folks plopped down $2000+ on a DPMS SASS and got similar results?  I've heard of one other since I brought the subject up.  Start of a trend?

Well it sure isn't common. You'd think if DPMS rifles were as inaccurate as you say they are, we'd hear a lot more problems now wouldn't we.

The DPMS is an economy rifle that happens to shoot well.  So does the AR-10, and it's guaranteed to do it.

Yet another reason why the ArmaLite (T) offers a superior edge to the economy line from DPMS.

What's real funny about all that is I've seen you recommend AR15 rifles that have no accuracy guarantee. How come you don't blow up and cry like a litte school girl about Colt and LMT not having accuracy guarantees?

If you ultimately can't shoot MOA @ 100yds, or just want a "good enough" shooter for under $1000, and want it in .308 then the DPMS rocks that price point.  Go forth and prosper with your choice.

So because of one magazine's testing, you're claiming all DPMS rifles can't shoot MOA. You truly are an idiot of epic proportions Edward.

For heaven's sake, quit trying to make shit up about extruded being "just as good as" forged.  We ALL know it's not, and it's really starting to make a technical thread not so technical.

I never said extrusions were better than forgings, jackass. Go back and look. I find it incredibly pathetic that 99% of your arguments are just sad attempts at putting words in people's mouthes. Really, it is pretty funny from the outside though. I just love reading your John Kerry replies.

I'd hate to hear later on, that someone believed you about AR extrusions, just because they disagreed with what I had to say.  Extrusions are not equal to forgings in the AR world.  Period.

More bullshit from Edward "I know they're worse but I don't even know how they're made" SHIVAN.

Tell me Ed, does it really throw a wrench in your pathetic little world to learn that the KAC SR25 is made from extrusions too?

Look at your replies in this thread. Honestly, how can you read your own replies and not feel that you should seek medical attention. You're flipping out, outright telling lies, making things up, trying to convince people they said things they didn't, and all around making yourself look like a head case. Get over it Ed. You're completely out of line, and the fact that people who aren't even supporting DPMS agree with me should really tell you something.

By the way Ed, I don't know if you consider Bigger Hammer a good resource, but it says the information was acquired from Armalite.

www.biggerhammer.net/stoner/sr25var10/ar10vsr25.html


And because you're being so pompous and I've seen you say multiple times that the SR25 is the best 308 AR, let me be the first to say........


HA-HA!

SR-25 uppers are currently forged, as confirmed by Knights via IM today.  Which is why they are among the very best .308 autoloaders available.  The way to tell an extruded SR-25 is based on the shell deflector.  If the shell deflector is integral, it is forged.  If the shell deflector is a bolt on, they are extruded.  I was not given a timeline of when they made the full switchover.

If price is of concern, Noveske, GAP, and ADCO can build up a weapon system that will rival an SR-25 for about 1/3 to 2/3rds the cost of a new SR-25.

I believe ADCO and Noveske use ArmaLite parts only, while GAP will use both.  I'm sure they would build one using Bushmaster or RRA parts if you pressed them.

For a quality, accuracy and cost balance the custom smiths provide more for each of your dollars.  Most likely due to lower overhead than KAC carries.

A quick rundown of my recent AR-10 "precision build":

Bolt and Carrier - $257
Upper - $275.00
Noveske 18" Heavy - $533
Lower - $187
Parts Kit w/ 2-stage - $150
PRS - $210
LaRue 13.2 - $315
MIAD - $45
Slash Rifle Buffer - $153
Gasbuster - $80

Total is $2205, and I've used all the "best" parts available.  Since I can assemble an AR pretty easily, and since John pins the gas block on precisely aligned, there is very little that can go wrong.

If you shop around a little, buy used where you can, or substitute in cheaper parts than the PRS or LaRue or Noveske barrel, you could get one hell of a shooter for under $2000 that's completely customized and extremely capable.  I understand that the WOA barrel and bolt combos that ADCO sells shoot lights out.  So at $575 you could save a couple hundred over my list.

We'll see how it shoots when I get it out to 100yds, but for now it will touch 10 shots at 50yds using no rear rest, a wobbly ass table, and PMC 150gr FMJ.

If you're just poking paper under 300yds though, it would probably represent a better relative value to get a 5.56 rig like the ArmaLite, Bushmaster, RRA or similar.

This probably has been covered, but here goes:

"One significant departure from the original AR-10 and the AR-15/16 series rifle is that the flat-top upper receivers of the SR-25 are produced from solid extrusions, rather than forgings, as, during initial development, it was found that tooling costs were considerably less for extrusions than they would have been had forgings been used."..."Another issue with forgings is that they tend to hold internal stresses, which have to be relieved prior to the final machinging cuts.  Knight's lower receivers are forged, and a process was developed whereby, after an initial series of roughing cuts, the semi-finished parts are left to set for a period of time prior to final machining."

taken from The Black Rifle II, Christopher R. Bartocci,pg 164, copyright 2004

Quoted: By the way Ed, I don't know if you consider Bigger Hammer a good resource, but it says the information was acquired from Armalite. www.biggerhammer.net/stoner/sr25var10/ar10vsr25.html And because you're being so pompous and I've seen you say multiple times that the SR25 is the best 308 AR, let me be the first to say........ HA-HA!

What's the point of a 8 y.o. tech note when we are comparing the rifle available today?

Another point of note is that you can get one weapon and serve both rolls outlined in the original comparison.

Let's say you buy the DPMS LR308 or SASS.  If you stick to a quality collapsible stock, you could swap in a carbine upper of your choice and serve the same roll as an FAL would...

Based on my searching it looks like KAC switched over to forgings for the M110. I couldn't find a Mk11 with a forged upper, but that's not exactly easy information to obtain with Google. I'd be amazed if KAC still used any extrusions now that they have forging machinery.

Not that it's important, but I know both ADCO and Noveske have built LR308's before. I've seen Steve say a few times that he refuses to work on the Bushmaster 308's, but he had a pretty wicked LR308 in his builds gallery at one point. I'm sure that will probably change a bit if/when RRA gets the platform cleaned up a little.

Earlier I agreed that DPMS used a cast steel upper receiver. I looked at their catalog last night and it's not cast, but actually billet 4140 steel. So apparently DPMS doesn't offer any cast receivers for their 308 line.