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Posted: 9/22/2023 8:09:22 PM EST
I came across a good deal on arfcom for a complete upper for 100 bucks with bcg and ch. It's a bca and I know they can be hit or miss but I wanted to see how cheap I could put one together sourcing everything except the lower from here.

137 for the upper and shipping and money order fees
38 for the lpk
52 for the buffer assy. And stock
59 for a PSA lower from my local store.  

All prices include shipping and taxes.

Put it together today and ran a couple mags through it just to check function.  Damn thing runs pretty good. No issues at all.  Fit and finish isn't quite as nice as a 1000 dollar rifle but it wasn't 1000 so. All in all I think it would make a great addition for someone who doesn't shoot a bunch but ones an OK rifle.  Anyway thanks arfcom. On to the next one.
PWS
Link Posted: 9/22/2023 10:07:58 PM EST
[#1]
Nice

I'm going to build a bunch of sub $300 ARs when Durkin Tactical has there black friday sale
Link Posted: 9/23/2023 6:39:05 AM EST
[#2]
Nicely done, now rattle can it!
Link Posted: 9/23/2023 7:20:44 AM EST
[#3]
Congrats!  Thats pretty darn amazing, and not even a plastic plum crazy
Link Posted: 9/23/2023 8:31:03 AM EST
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nicely done, now rattle can it!
View Quote


CD knows the drill. Rattle can all rifles
Link Posted: 9/23/2023 8:45:02 AM EST
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


CD knows the drill. Rattle can all rifles
View Quote

Especially low cost builds.
Link Posted: 9/23/2023 8:53:49 AM EST
[#6]
But it has pretty stainless fluted barrel!!!

Lol wish I could post a pic of it
Link Posted: 9/23/2023 11:40:29 AM EST
[#7]
It’s still kinda crazy to me that ARs and AKs have switched prices. Hell, a mid-tier AR cost less than what most people are asking for SKSs these days…

Even ten years ago I wouldn’t have believed you could build a decent AR for under $500. Now I’ve got a PSA/Anderson that was about $350 including the Sig red dot.
Link Posted: 9/23/2023 8:40:06 PM EST
[#8]
I had fun in the sub $300 threads.
Link Posted: 9/24/2023 10:25:48 AM EST
[#9]
As soon as I finish up the last few upgrades to my new 14.5", I want to switch gears and put together the cheapest AR I can. Something I don't mind loaning on the range and it getting thrashed. And fine tune my rattle can skills on it.
Link Posted: 9/24/2023 7:46:37 PM EST
[#10]
You can do a pretty cheap build right here
Link Posted: 9/24/2023 8:33:20 PM EST
[#11]
Anyone have a line on the cheapest stripped AR upper? I wasn’t to build a .22 pistol AR with a CMMG .22 conversion unit. Blemished would be fine.
Link Posted: 9/24/2023 8:37:37 PM EST
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Anyone have a line on the cheapest stripped AR upper? I wasn’t to build a .22 pistol AR with a CMMG .22 conversion unit. Blemished would be fine.
View Quote


I don't know about cheapest, but BCM currently has their blem stripped uppers on sale for $50. I snagged 2 for about $110 shipped with tax. I'll take that price for those all day.
Link Posted: 9/24/2023 8:46:40 PM EST
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I don't know about cheapest, but BCM currently has their blem stripped uppers on sale for $50. I snagged 2 for about $110 shipped with tax. I'll take that price for those all day.
View Quote


Thanks, I’ll check them out!
Link Posted: 9/24/2023 9:01:03 PM EST
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Anyone have a line on the cheapest stripped AR upper? I wasn’t to build a .22 pistol AR with a CMMG .22 conversion unit. Blemished would be fine.
View Quote

https://ar15discounts.com/products/anderson-am-15-stripped-upper-receiver/

15% off with code.
Link Posted: 9/24/2023 9:57:35 PM EST
[#15]
OP you got me beat…this PSA is $325 without the optic and light

PSA lower was $35, stripped.  PSA upper was $200 on the EE.  Rest of the parts brought the build to $325.  



Link Posted: 9/24/2023 11:20:24 PM EST
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Anyone have a line on the cheapest stripped AR upper? I wasn’t to build a .22 pistol AR with a CMMG .22 conversion unit. Blemished would be fine.
View Quote

There's THIS.  Shipping is free.
Link Posted: 9/25/2023 5:08:33 PM EST
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

There's THIS.  Shipping is free.
View Quote


PERFECT! Thank you @Dex223
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 7:38:30 AM EST
[#18]
Really want to see sub $300.00 with all new retail purchased parts.
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 8:46:55 AM EST
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:  Really want to see sub $300.00 with all new retail purchased parts.
View Quote


https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-300-AR-thread-for-Christmas-/5-2047298/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/The-reprise-of-the-300-AR-thread/5-2604979/

We've done it under Nixon, Ford, Carter, and Trump.  We can just about do it under Biden.
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 9:38:43 AM EST
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Really want to see sub $300.00 with all new retail purchased parts.
View Quote


That one's gonna be hard to do
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 1:21:23 PM EST
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That one's gonna be hard to do
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Really want to see sub $300.00 with all new retail purchased parts.


That one's gonna be hard to do


Maybe if we go to poly receivers.  Not ideal, but that little bit cheaper.  No chrome, no nitride, no sights...
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 6:36:39 PM EST
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Really want to see sub $300.00 with all new retail purchased parts.
View Quote

It can be done for a bit over that currently.

I wouldn't have much faith in the net results though.
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 6:44:25 PM EST
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


It can be done for a bit over that currently.

I wouldn't have much faith in the net results though.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:  Really want to see sub $300.00 with all new retail purchased parts.


It can be done for a bit over that currently.

I wouldn't have much faith in the net results though.


For a deployment in the sandbox by active infantry?  No.  For the casual American who just wants an AR-15 to plink & shoot home intruders w/?  After break in, it'll do fine.
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 6:45:55 PM EST
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


For a deployment in the sandbox by active infantry?  No.  For the casual American who just wants an AR-15 to plink & shoot home intruders w/?  After break in, it'll do fine.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  Really want to see sub $300.00 with all new retail purchased parts.


It can be done for a bit over that currently.

I wouldn't have much faith in the net results though.


For a deployment in the sandbox by active infantry?  No.  For the casual American who just wants an AR-15 to plink & shoot home intruders w/?  After break in, it'll do fine.

Maybe.
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 9:23:51 PM EST
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Maybe.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  Really want to see sub $300.00 with all new retail purchased parts.


It can be done for a bit over that currently.

I wouldn't have much faith in the net results though.


For a deployment in the sandbox by active infantry?  No.  For the casual American who just wants an AR-15 to plink & shoot home intruders w/?  After break in, it'll do fine.


Maybe.


For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 9:45:53 PM EST
[#26]
Nicely done, I had the same idea about 5 years ago so I put together the cheapest AR I possibly could. Most of the parts were sourced here.

DPMS complete carbine bbl for $50
No name upper for $30
Surplus carry handle from LGS bin for $20
Stripped Anderson lower for $40
Anderson LPK for $25
Complete A2 stock kit for $50
Toolcraft bcg for $50

Total $265, not too shabby.

Craziest thing was we took it to the range and it shot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with 55gr milspec ammo. I ended up giving that rifle away to my cousin who was in need, he appreciated it.
Link Posted: 9/26/2023 9:57:55 PM EST
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:  Nicely done, I had the same idea about 5 years ago so I put together the cheapest AR I possibly could. Most of the parts were sourced here.

DPMS complete carbine bbl for $50
No name upper for $30
Surplus carry handle from LGS bin for $20
Stripped Anderson lower for $40
Anderson LPK for $25
Complete A2 stock kit for $50
Toolcraft bcg for $50

Total $265, not too shabby.

Craziest thing was we took it to the range and it shot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with 55gr milspec ammo. I ended up giving that rifle away to my cousin who was in need, he appreciated it.
View Quote


That is the point of a $300 AR.  You make a new rifleman, who then upgrades parts, then has spare parts that become a new rifle for the kids or one for his brother-in-law.  Every new rifle in civilian hands makes a leftist cry.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 4:26:57 AM EST
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.
View Quote

I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 8:47:31 AM EST
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP you got me beat…this PSA is $325 without the optic and light

PSA lower was $35, stripped.  PSA upper was $200 on the EE.  Rest of the parts brought the build to $325.  
View Quote



What about shipping and FFL transfer fee for the lower?
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 8:56:08 AM EST
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

There's THIS.  Shipping is free.
View Quote



Is this place legit

I got and error code, twice,  when I submitted my order
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 12:33:50 PM EST
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 12:50:21 PM EST
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.

Your experiences obviously differ from mine.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 1:08:19 PM EST
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 1:12:57 PM EST
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?

Sub 3 hundo? Doubtful.

ETA: And not one that I'd stake my life on for certain.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 1:30:14 PM EST
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?
View Quote



You can build Durkin Tactical Rifles for less then $300 and they work every time

My bud gots thousands of rounds through his in less then a year, which is why I'm going to build 6 from their Black Friday Kits this year

Link Posted: 9/27/2023 1:32:02 PM EST
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Sub 3 hundo? Doubtful.

ETA: And not one that I'd stake my life on for certain.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?


Sub 3 hundo? Doubtful.

ETA: And not one that I'd stake my life on for certain.


No, not for $300.  Can you personally take a $300 Poverty Pony and turn it into a lights out rifle?  It's just a question of swapping out parts.

$300 gets a working Yugo of a rifle.  But unlike a Yugo, you can replace parts on an AR until it's a race car.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 1:47:44 PM EST
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


No, not for $300.  Can you personally take a $300 Poverty Pony and turn it into a lights out rifle?  It's just a question of swapping out parts.

$300 gets a working Yugo of a rifle.  But unlike a Yugo, you can replace parts on an AR until it's a race car.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?


Sub 3 hundo? Doubtful.

ETA: And not one that I'd stake my life on for certain.


No, not for $300.  Can you personally take a $300 Poverty Pony and turn it into a lights out rifle?  It's just a question of swapping out parts.

$300 gets a working Yugo of a rifle.  But unlike a Yugo, you can replace parts on an AR until it's a race car.

Gotcha, most definitely.

But the *most likely* imminent frustration of dicking around with a fuckey gun to start with is a large waste of time.

I'd much prefer to bridge that gap and start with something that runs reliable from the start.

I've turned several guys here at my shop onto ARs. 7 guys, most with multiple guns. I think 3 are single purchase/assembled guns.  So many bought the cheapest shit they could find, fought it, got frustrated and sold rather than fuck around.

All 5.56 except two, a .350L and a .450 BM.

The 5.56 would have been fairly simple to remedy had they been patient and willing to invest a bit more. Giving up was easier I guess.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 1:51:03 PM EST
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



You can build Durkin Tactical Rifles for less then $300 and they work every time

My bud gots thousands of rounds through his in less then a year, which is why I'm going to build 6 from their Black Friday Kits this year

View Quote

~340ish is the best I came up with. Side stepping transfer fees would help if one can.

I have only dealt with one from Durkin and it was a complete turd. That's been awhile back, no idea of current quality.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 2:45:57 PM EST
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Gotcha, most definitely.

But the *most likely* imminent frustration of dicking around with a fuckey gun to start with is a large waste of time.

I'd much prefer to bridge that gap and start with something that runs reliable from the start.

I've turned several guys here at my shop onto ARs. 7 guys, most with multiple guns. I think 3 are single purchase/assembled guns.  So many bought the cheapest shit they could find, fought it, got frustrated and sold rather than fuck around.

All 5.56 except two, a .350L and a .450 BM.

The 5.56 would have been fairly simple to remedy had they been patient and willing to invest a bit more. Giving up was easier I guess.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?


Sub 3 hundo? Doubtful.

ETA: And not one that I'd stake my life on for certain.


No, not for $300.  Can you personally take a $300 Poverty Pony and turn it into a lights out rifle?  It's just a question of swapping out parts.

$300 gets a working Yugo of a rifle.  But unlike a Yugo, you can replace parts on an AR until it's a race car.

Gotcha, most definitely.

But the *most likely* imminent frustration of dicking around with a fuckey gun to start with is a large waste of time.

I'd much prefer to bridge that gap and start with something that runs reliable from the start.

I've turned several guys here at my shop onto ARs. 7 guys, most with multiple guns. I think 3 are single purchase/assembled guns.  So many bought the cheapest shit they could find, fought it, got frustrated and sold rather than fuck around.

All 5.56 except two, a .350L and a .450 BM.

The 5.56 would have been fairly simple to remedy had they been patient and willing to invest a bit more. Giving up was easier I guess.


For $300, the chances of having to screw around w/ it to get it working increase - but the likelihood is that it will work if everything has been put in the right place.  If you don't screw on the buffer tube nut tight enuf, it might come loose - but you'll learn what the problem is & how to fix it.  Same w/ the bbl nut.  Same w/ badly staked gas key screws - the problem becomes obvious.  If somehow you end up w/ an undergassed bbl (w/ carbine gas) no less, a bit more difficult to solve, but you can literally type www.ar15.com into your web browser and start asking questions.  If you go so cheap as to go to polymer receivers w/o a reinforcing thumbhole stock, and something cracks - again, the crack is obvious.

I'm a liberal arts major, and I think the only malfs I've had on self- assembled rifles was a MagPul Gen 2 mag on a CavArms lower - a gift for a groomsman, easily fixed by Motown_Steve w/ a Gen 3, & my 27" pencil bbl w/ Rifle +3" gas, which was something of an experiment anyway.

In the National Guard, I was mostly issued Colts w/ Aimpoints & MaTechs - had one Colt that was a foot off the target from mechanical zero at 25 yds, an Aimpoint M4 that fogged up, and numerous MaTechs that would auto index themselves to whatever range they felt like under recoil.  So I'm not comfortable telling a noob just getting into the hobby to go drop $1k on a Colt & he'll never have issues - even Colt turns out a turd from time to time.  I will tell them the more they spend up front the likelihood of problems decrease - but if they want to build it themselves I'll walk them through it, and if they do go cheap all problems can be diagnosed through ammunition expenditure.  
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 3:33:15 PM EST
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


For $300, the chances of having to screw around w/ it to get it working increase - but the likelihood is that it will work if everything has been put in the right place.  If you don't screw on the buffer tube nut tight enuf, it might come loose - but you'll learn what the problem is & how to fix it.  Same w/ the bbl nut.  Same w/ badly staked gas key screws - the problem becomes obvious.  If somehow you end up w/ an undergassed bbl (w/ carbine gas) no less, a bit more difficult to solve, but you can literally type www.ar15.com into your web browser and start asking questions.  If you go so cheap as to go to polymer receivers w/o a reinforcing thumbhole stock, and something cracks - again, the crack is obvious.

I'm a liberal arts major, and I think the only malfs I've had on self- assembled rifles was a MagPul Gen 2 mag on a CavArms lower - a gift for a groomsman, easily fixed by Motown_Steve w/ a Gen 3, & my 27" pencil bbl w/ Rifle +3" gas, which was something of an experiment anyway.

In the National Guard, I was mostly issued Colts w/ Aimpoints & MaTechs - had one Colt that was a foot off the target from mechanical zero at 25 yds, an Aimpoint M4 that fogged up, and numerous MaTechs that would auto index themselves to whatever range they felt like under recoil.  So I'm not comfortable telling a noob just getting into the hobby to go drop $1k on a Colt & he'll never have issues - even Colt turns out a turd from time to time.  I will tell them the more they spend up front the likelihood of problems decrease - but if they want to build it themselves I'll walk them through it, and if they do go cheap all problems can be diagnosed through ammunition expenditure.  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?


Sub 3 hundo? Doubtful.

ETA: And not one that I'd stake my life on for certain.


No, not for $300.  Can you personally take a $300 Poverty Pony and turn it into a lights out rifle?  It's just a question of swapping out parts.

$300 gets a working Yugo of a rifle.  But unlike a Yugo, you can replace parts on an AR until it's a race car.

Gotcha, most definitely.

But the *most likely* imminent frustration of dicking around with a fuckey gun to start with is a large waste of time.

I'd much prefer to bridge that gap and start with something that runs reliable from the start.

I've turned several guys here at my shop onto ARs. 7 guys, most with multiple guns. I think 3 are single purchase/assembled guns.  So many bought the cheapest shit they could find, fought it, got frustrated and sold rather than fuck around.

All 5.56 except two, a .350L and a .450 BM.

The 5.56 would have been fairly simple to remedy had they been patient and willing to invest a bit more. Giving up was easier I guess.


For $300, the chances of having to screw around w/ it to get it working increase - but the likelihood is that it will work if everything has been put in the right place.  If you don't screw on the buffer tube nut tight enuf, it might come loose - but you'll learn what the problem is & how to fix it.  Same w/ the bbl nut.  Same w/ badly staked gas key screws - the problem becomes obvious.  If somehow you end up w/ an undergassed bbl (w/ carbine gas) no less, a bit more difficult to solve, but you can literally type www.ar15.com into your web browser and start asking questions.  If you go so cheap as to go to polymer receivers w/o a reinforcing thumbhole stock, and something cracks - again, the crack is obvious.

I'm a liberal arts major, and I think the only malfs I've had on self- assembled rifles was a MagPul Gen 2 mag on a CavArms lower - a gift for a groomsman, easily fixed by Motown_Steve w/ a Gen 3, & my 27" pencil bbl w/ Rifle +3" gas, which was something of an experiment anyway.

In the National Guard, I was mostly issued Colts w/ Aimpoints & MaTechs - had one Colt that was a foot off the target from mechanical zero at 25 yds, an Aimpoint M4 that fogged up, and numerous MaTechs that would auto index themselves to whatever range they felt like under recoil.  So I'm not comfortable telling a noob just getting into the hobby to go drop $1k on a Colt & he'll never have issues - even Colt turns out a turd from time to time.  I will tell them the more they spend up front the likelihood of problems decrease - but if they want to build it themselves I'll walk them through it, and if they do go cheap all problems can be diagnosed through ammunition expenditure.  

But then you are back to maybe. Possibly. A good likelihood.
And working on the assumption that one is:

•Willing to endure the hassle of troubleshooting/remedying an issue.
• Physically able to perform the above.
• Mechanically adept/has tools to perform tasks/or knows another that will do it for them.
•Posesses the patience to work through the *most likely * issues in store.

I've dealt with enough guys that got canted FSBs, dicked up chambers, feedramps that were not cut correctly, and loose bbl extensions that just said fuck it and gave up right out of the gate.

All were in that extreme lower budget range.

But yes, one can basement level budget a working AR, builds/kits/guns in that price range come with their risks though.

And every one in awhile a guy scores, like my PTAC build of yesteryear.

Bottom dollar, bare bones basic. Never a stoppage, nothing but cheap steel case ammo, accurate enough inside 100 yards, nothing has broken yet.

My nephew still owns it, beats it like a mule. Add oil and full mags and pull the trigger. IIRC, it's north of 8k rds now.

I'm still waiting for the first part to break. I'm anticipating an extractor or sheared bolt lug.


Link Posted: 9/27/2023 6:28:30 PM EST
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

But then you are back to maybe. Possibly. A good likelihood.
And working on the assumption that one is:

•Willing to endure the hassle of troubleshooting/remedying an issue.
• Physically able to perform the above.
• Mechanically adept/has tools to perform tasks/or knows another that will do it for them.
•Posesses the patience to work through the *most likely * issues in store.

I've dealt with enough guys that got canted FSBs, dicked up chambers, feedramps that were not cut correctly, and loose bbl extensions that just said fuck it and gave up right out of the gate.

All were in that extreme lower budget range.

But yes, one can basement level budget a working AR, builds/kits/guns in that price range come with their risks though.

And every one in awhile a guy scores, like my PTAC build of yesteryear.

Bottom dollar, bare bones basic. Never a stoppage, nothing but cheap steel case ammo, accurate enough inside 100 yards, nothing has broken yet.

My nephew still owns it, beats it like a mule. Add oil and full mags and pull the trigger. IIRC, it's north of 8k rds now.

I'm still waiting for the first part to break. I'm anticipating an extractor or sheared bolt lug.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?


Sub 3 hundo? Doubtful.

ETA: And not one that I'd stake my life on for certain.


No, not for $300.  Can you personally take a $300 Poverty Pony and turn it into a lights out rifle?  It's just a question of swapping out parts.

$300 gets a working Yugo of a rifle.  But unlike a Yugo, you can replace parts on an AR until it's a race car.

Gotcha, most definitely.

But the *most likely* imminent frustration of dicking around with a fuckey gun to start with is a large waste of time.

I'd much prefer to bridge that gap and start with something that runs reliable from the start.

I've turned several guys here at my shop onto ARs. 7 guys, most with multiple guns. I think 3 are single purchase/assembled guns.  So many bought the cheapest shit they could find, fought it, got frustrated and sold rather than fuck around.

All 5.56 except two, a .350L and a .450 BM.

The 5.56 would have been fairly simple to remedy had they been patient and willing to invest a bit more. Giving up was easier I guess.


For $300, the chances of having to screw around w/ it to get it working increase - but the likelihood is that it will work if everything has been put in the right place.  If you don't screw on the buffer tube nut tight enuf, it might come loose - but you'll learn what the problem is & how to fix it.  Same w/ the bbl nut.  Same w/ badly staked gas key screws - the problem becomes obvious.  If somehow you end up w/ an undergassed bbl (w/ carbine gas) no less, a bit more difficult to solve, but you can literally type www.ar15.com into your web browser and start asking questions.  If you go so cheap as to go to polymer receivers w/o a reinforcing thumbhole stock, and something cracks - again, the crack is obvious.

I'm a liberal arts major, and I think the only malfs I've had on self- assembled rifles was a MagPul Gen 2 mag on a CavArms lower - a gift for a groomsman, easily fixed by Motown_Steve w/ a Gen 3, & my 27" pencil bbl w/ Rifle +3" gas, which was something of an experiment anyway.

In the National Guard, I was mostly issued Colts w/ Aimpoints & MaTechs - had one Colt that was a foot off the target from mechanical zero at 25 yds, an Aimpoint M4 that fogged up, and numerous MaTechs that would auto index themselves to whatever range they felt like under recoil.  So I'm not comfortable telling a noob just getting into the hobby to go drop $1k on a Colt & he'll never have issues - even Colt turns out a turd from time to time.  I will tell them the more they spend up front the likelihood of problems decrease - but if they want to build it themselves I'll walk them through it, and if they do go cheap all problems can be diagnosed through ammunition expenditure.  

But then you are back to maybe. Possibly. A good likelihood.
And working on the assumption that one is:

•Willing to endure the hassle of troubleshooting/remedying an issue.
• Physically able to perform the above.
• Mechanically adept/has tools to perform tasks/or knows another that will do it for them.
•Posesses the patience to work through the *most likely * issues in store.

I've dealt with enough guys that got canted FSBs, dicked up chambers, feedramps that were not cut correctly, and loose bbl extensions that just said fuck it and gave up right out of the gate.

All were in that extreme lower budget range.

But yes, one can basement level budget a working AR, builds/kits/guns in that price range come with their risks though.

And every one in awhile a guy scores, like my PTAC build of yesteryear.

Bottom dollar, bare bones basic. Never a stoppage, nothing but cheap steel case ammo, accurate enough inside 100 yards, nothing has broken yet.

My nephew still owns it, beats it like a mule. Add oil and full mags and pull the trigger. IIRC, it's north of 8k rds now.

I'm still waiting for the first part to break. I'm anticipating an extractor or sheared bolt lug.


As I pointed out, I was issued a Colt M4 that passed military acceptance w/ a canted FSB, so apparently that's industry standard.  

Regularly, on this board, noobs are pointed to near $1k Colt guns as a guarantee of quality and lack of issues - and while we expect there will be fewer issues w/ a Colt, there's not a guarantee there will be no issues, only a guarantee that Colt will fix em.

My litmus test for selling lowers to folks is,"Can you change your own oil?"  Not do they change their own oil, but do they possess the mechanical knowledge and dexterity to do so.  If they say yes, I tell em to buy a lower & build their own AR, and if they need help to call me.  If they say no, I'd point em to a complete lower & a complete upper, just snap em together & call it done, or just order the entry level S&W M&P.  Not the lightest, but all standard parts to start with.  If they want to spend more than that, sure, buy a Colt.  The only way I see Colts are worth the money is on the resale market.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 6:41:37 PM EST
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


As I pointed out, I was issued a Colt M4 that passed military acceptance w/ a canted FSB, so apparently that's industry standard.  

Regularly, on this board, noobs are pointed to near $1k Colt guns as a guarantee of quality and lack of issues - and while we expect there will be fewer issues w/ a Colt, there's not a guarantee there will be no issues, only a guarantee that Colt will fix em.

My litmus test for selling lowers to folks is,"Can you change your own oil?"  Not do they change their own oil, but do they possess the mechanical knowledge and dexterity to do so.  If they say yes, I tell em to buy a lower & build their own AR, and if they need help to call me.  If they say no, I'd point em to a complete lower & a complete upper, just snap em together & call it done, or just order the entry level S&W M&P.  Not the lightest, but all standard parts to start with.  If they want to spend more than that, sure, buy a Colt.  The only way I see Colts are worth the money is on the resale market.
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Quoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  For $300ish, you're getting a 16" carbine gas bbl that is overgassed, not very well staked gas key screws, a stock weight buffer, maybe a 6061 lower.  Is any of that going to matter in the 1500 rounds it will see in the next 20 years?  It's going to sit in an air conditioned house behind a door, and if ever used in anger, will deafen the user while the recipient is taking 55 grn FMJ from 10 yds @ 3000 fps, say 1/3 of the mag dump lands, bad day for the burglar.  Homeowner doesn't get his rifle back, builds another $300 rifle, spends the savings on hearing aids.


I suppose that if one sets their expectations in line with their budget,  that works.


The beauty of the AR is you can give someone a $300 starter rifle, and if they really get into serious competition, they can dump $2k into it & have a serious, well built rifle, that started as a cheap, almost throwaway gift.  And then they have $250 of parts they can throw together on a Poverty Pony & give to someone else to start the cycle anew.


Your experiences obviously differ from mine.


Can you not build an excellent rifle on a Poverty Pony lower?  Good bbl, good trigger, true the upper if necessary?


Sub 3 hundo? Doubtful.

ETA: And not one that I'd stake my life on for certain.


No, not for $300.  Can you personally take a $300 Poverty Pony and turn it into a lights out rifle?  It's just a question of swapping out parts.

$300 gets a working Yugo of a rifle.  But unlike a Yugo, you can replace parts on an AR until it's a race car.

Gotcha, most definitely.

But the *most likely* imminent frustration of dicking around with a fuckey gun to start with is a large waste of time.

I'd much prefer to bridge that gap and start with something that runs reliable from the start.

I've turned several guys here at my shop onto ARs. 7 guys, most with multiple guns. I think 3 are single purchase/assembled guns.  So many bought the cheapest shit they could find, fought it, got frustrated and sold rather than fuck around.

All 5.56 except two, a .350L and a .450 BM.

The 5.56 would have been fairly simple to remedy had they been patient and willing to invest a bit more. Giving up was easier I guess.


For $300, the chances of having to screw around w/ it to get it working increase - but the likelihood is that it will work if everything has been put in the right place.  If you don't screw on the buffer tube nut tight enuf, it might come loose - but you'll learn what the problem is & how to fix it.  Same w/ the bbl nut.  Same w/ badly staked gas key screws - the problem becomes obvious.  If somehow you end up w/ an undergassed bbl (w/ carbine gas) no less, a bit more difficult to solve, but you can literally type www.ar15.com into your web browser and start asking questions.  If you go so cheap as to go to polymer receivers w/o a reinforcing thumbhole stock, and something cracks - again, the crack is obvious.

I'm a liberal arts major, and I think the only malfs I've had on self- assembled rifles was a MagPul Gen 2 mag on a CavArms lower - a gift for a groomsman, easily fixed by Motown_Steve w/ a Gen 3, & my 27" pencil bbl w/ Rifle +3" gas, which was something of an experiment anyway.

In the National Guard, I was mostly issued Colts w/ Aimpoints & MaTechs - had one Colt that was a foot off the target from mechanical zero at 25 yds, an Aimpoint M4 that fogged up, and numerous MaTechs that would auto index themselves to whatever range they felt like under recoil.  So I'm not comfortable telling a noob just getting into the hobby to go drop $1k on a Colt & he'll never have issues - even Colt turns out a turd from time to time.  I will tell them the more they spend up front the likelihood of problems decrease - but if they want to build it themselves I'll walk them through it, and if they do go cheap all problems can be diagnosed through ammunition expenditure.  

But then you are back to maybe. Possibly. A good likelihood.
And working on the assumption that one is:

•Willing to endure the hassle of troubleshooting/remedying an issue.
• Physically able to perform the above.
• Mechanically adept/has tools to perform tasks/or knows another that will do it for them.
•Posesses the patience to work through the *most likely * issues in store.

I've dealt with enough guys that got canted FSBs, dicked up chambers, feedramps that were not cut correctly, and loose bbl extensions that just said fuck it and gave up right out of the gate.

All were in that extreme lower budget range.

But yes, one can basement level budget a working AR, builds/kits/guns in that price range come with their risks though.

And every one in awhile a guy scores, like my PTAC build of yesteryear.

Bottom dollar, bare bones basic. Never a stoppage, nothing but cheap steel case ammo, accurate enough inside 100 yards, nothing has broken yet.

My nephew still owns it, beats it like a mule. Add oil and full mags and pull the trigger. IIRC, it's north of 8k rds now.

I'm still waiting for the first part to break. I'm anticipating an extractor or sheared bolt lug.


As I pointed out, I was issued a Colt M4 that passed military acceptance w/ a canted FSB, so apparently that's industry standard.  

Regularly, on this board, noobs are pointed to near $1k Colt guns as a guarantee of quality and lack of issues - and while we expect there will be fewer issues w/ a Colt, there's not a guarantee there will be no issues, only a guarantee that Colt will fix em.

My litmus test for selling lowers to folks is,"Can you change your own oil?"  Not do they change their own oil, but do they possess the mechanical knowledge and dexterity to do so.  If they say yes, I tell em to buy a lower & build their own AR, and if they need help to call me.  If they say no, I'd point em to a complete lower & a complete upper, just snap em together & call it done, or just order the entry level S&W M&P.  Not the lightest, but all standard parts to start with.  If they want to spend more than that, sure, buy a Colt.  The only way I see Colts are worth the money is on the resale market.

To each their own. That's the best part of AR ownership, choices are plentiful.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 7:31:13 PM EST
[#43]
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Quoted:


PERFECT! Thank you @Dex223
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Quoted:

There's THIS.  Shipping is free.


PERFECT! Thank you @Dex223


@weptek911
@Dex223

Were either of you able to place and order with them? Error code at the end of the checkout process, no charges on my card, no order confirmation.
Id like to buy some stuff from them
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 7:39:06 PM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


@weptek911
@Dex223
@NWred

Were either of you able to place and order with them? Error code at the end of the checkout process, no charges on my card, no order confirmation.
Id like to buy some stuff from them
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

There's THIS.  Shipping is free.


PERFECT! Thank you @Dex223


@weptek911
@Dex223
@NWred

Were either of you able to place and order with them? Error code at the end of the checkout process, no charges on my card, no order confirmation.
Id like to buy some stuff from them


NO. I’ve tried different credit and debit cards, I get a gibberish error code that is so washed out I can’t read it. I’ve left messages on their phone number and sent a message to their “contact us” link.
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 8:08:04 PM EST
[#45]
Keep an eye on those cards.
Link Posted: 9/29/2023 4:48:52 AM EST
[#46]
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Quoted:



What about shipping and FFL transfer fee for the lower?
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OP you got me beat…this PSA is $325 without the optic and light

PSA lower was $35, stripped.  PSA upper was $200 on the EE.  Rest of the parts brought the build to $325.  



What about shipping and FFL transfer fee for the lower?


@BobaDebt

This is a good question.  The $35 PSA lower was actually free, PSA some years back had a Buy Two Get one Free, so to play fair in the cost model we were discussing, I went on the high side for the cost.

But I felt $325 was a fair price to use for our discussion.  IIRC, the shipping cost from PSA was very minimal at the time.  The deal at the time was too good to pass up.  My FFL charged me $30 for the entire shipment transfer and the shipping from PSA was maybe $12.  So if you really want to get down to the actual cost of the free lower was $42/3 = $14

But if you really want to say the lower was "free", then my actual build cost was $295.

But one interesting fact, two of the three lowers I got from PSA were sequentially numbered, so as the lowers came off the deli slicer at PSA, they picked them up and shipped to me.  The one outlier was not, so I suspect it (the free one) may have come off the blem pile

But if it had a blem, I sure could not find it, all three were identical





Link Posted: 9/30/2023 10:47:04 PM EST
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


NO. I’ve tried different credit and debit cards, I get a gibberish error code that is so washed out I can’t read it. I’ve left messages on their phone number and sent a message to their “contact us” link.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

There's THIS.  Shipping is free.


PERFECT! Thank you @Dex223


@weptek911
@Dex223
@NWred

Were either of you able to place and order with them? Error code at the end of the checkout process, no charges on my card, no order confirmation.
Id like to buy some stuff from them


NO. I’ve tried different credit and debit cards, I get a gibberish error code that is so washed out I can’t read it. I’ve left messages on their phone number and sent a message to their “contact us” link.


@weptek911

YES.  I placed an order on May 2nd, and got my BLEM upper about a week later.

Edit  I got this:



Only blems I see are the rear support for the port cover pin is thin, and two small areas on each side of the bottom that didn't take the anodizing.
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