It's pretty clear that industry has at last gone mainstream with precision, high-performance cartridges. It's been a struggle getting away from the .308 and .223 as "everyman's" precision fodder, but nobody can deny it's happened. The overwhelming success of the 6.5 Creedmoor showed the industry that, indeed, they could safely place all the eggs exclusively in the long range precision basket and leave the varmint/deer crowds to catch up.

Factory loadings, rifle configurations, and marketing hype for the Creedmoor were driven almost entirely by the long range game, with no need to compare/contrast short range performance for applications that have historically been part of rifle cartridge development in industry. Other semi-recent cartridges that took the "fits-all" approach in loadings, components, and marketing have, arguably, remained lukewarm in terms of use (for example, the .260 Rem, various "magnum" lines, and so forth). So much for the bolt and AR10 platforms - they have their solution (along with its sibling, the 6mm Creedmoor).

Now, as the short AR platform still awaits history's verdict on the accepted mid-to-long range chambering for the next couple of decades, we see this roll-out of the .224V being exclusively guided by long range characteristics. In fact, a near-100% focus on a bullet weight that has never been used by the mainstream ammo industry in loadings. Isn't that cool, when you really think about it? Think about how new cartridges have been introduced to the market since even before Roy Weatherby shook things up: spreading the capability across a wide swath of applications and platforms in order to "capture" most of the shooting population in some way. Scattered along the path of Twentieth-Century shooting Americana are the empty cases of countless forgotten cartridges, that tried to be too much to too many or that had some fatal flaw.

The slow-as-molasses evolution of industry-led precision shooting in America was partly due to timing of development in engineering technologies, but also because of total reliance on Elmer Fudd-esque dogma. This was further reinforced by the decade-long unconstitutional Clinton "ban" that took the wind out of the sails of innovation investment by the shooting industry. But it appears that at last, industry is getting serious about what its market is actually capable of - which is so much more than duplex reticles, flat-base soft-point projectiles, and sloppy quality control.

These days, everybody at every price point wants a piece of the long-range pie. I said that there is currently no verdict for the short AR15 platform "everyman's" precision cartridge. The field is still open. The .223 simply drifts too much in the wind, offers too little in terms of energy, and is not across-the-board legal for big game in all jurisdictions. The 6.8SPC is not a precision long range cartridge, so scratch that. One could argue that the 6.5 Grendel is in fact, the optimum -15 platform chambering. This is probably 90% true, and there is a very, very good chance that it will emerge some years from now at the top of the heap. However, like it's 6.5 big brothers in the -10 platform, it gives some key stats away to faster, smaller-diameter solutions.

Federal's marketing for the .224V capitalizes on this. But now I'm going to tell you why the .224V will *not* become the ultimate -15 cartridge. Sure, it's a step, a bump in the road, and industry needs to keep "new" solutions coming to sell more parts, guns, and ammo. Long-term commercial planning 101. The .224V is setting the stage for a 6mm solution, and the market will demand it. Here are the talking points on this:

1. Just like in 1945 when the .257 Weatherby was trotted out, all of the marketing for the .224V depends on one thing: barrel length. Capacity-to-bore ratio ultimately determines how much velocity you lose/gain per inch of barrel. No magical powder formula can bypass this, and I don't think we'll see an increase on spec pressure for the platform ;-). Federal's numbers are coming from a 24" barrel, and let's face it, that's not where the market is going.

2. Efficiency of caliber. There is a reason why .22's (or sewing needles) do not dominate at long range, and that has to do with physics of mass and ballistic efficiency in the atmosphere. If your rifle could weigh 100lbs, then it would be in your best long-range interest to shoot a significantly larger bore size. However, we are talking about 7-15lbs here, depending on your personal boat-anchor-coefficient. If winners in LR competitions of all types, using this weight range of rifle are considered, it would be pretty evident that .22 is not where it's at. The evidence instead suggests something from 6mm to 7mm. And before you say "but this is new technology!", wrong. I've had a box of 90gr .224 SMK's on my bench for at least 15 years.

3. Bore life. Even with modern powders, the .224V is going to have a measurable throat/accuracy life that will be lower than 6mm and 6.5mm in AR15-sized cases. Consider that typical bore life for the .22-250AI shooting 90's is commonly less than 1000rds. Yes, completely different case capacity, but hopefully you see the point. The smaller hole does not help here.

4. Balanced solution. The .224V is specifically a semi-auto cartridge. This is not going to be marketed, nor will it be successful, as a multi-platform chambering. As such, we need to look at the trends in the AR world. While the Saturday morning, 100y paper, bench-top shooters might not care about a 24" barrel, the modern AR market does (regardless of how much the NRA tries to keep America in the Dark Ages of impractical competition formats). In fact, I think we can all agree that the number of practical-length, suppressed AR's being built is currently giving the Global Warming Industry hockey-stick chart a run for its money. This is why the Grendel, for instance, will remain more popular in the long run. It works great in a 12" carbine.

This all sets the stage for a mainstream 6mm AR15 chambering, which many of us would say is way overdue. A 6mm will provide the same low recoil impulse, but offer greater efficiency in carbine-length barrels. The 6mm components market for precision shooting is very mature at the moment. It offers a much wider variety of precision bullet weights that already have been proven at long range, as well as excellent long range hunting projectiles. The barrel life in a -15 platform 6mm cartridge is better than excellent, and many inherently-accurate variants already exist in "mainstream" wildcat communities.

Bottom line - the market is looking for a precision AR15 solution that is accurate, reliable, has longevity, performs at distance, and does all this in an 18" or shorter platform. The industry will toy with the .224V but it will eventually be sidelined for a 6mm equivalent because the .224V in practical platforms will suck. Not as hard as the .223 mind you, but it will become a niche item. Just like the bolt and -10 platforms, the pair of solutions (depending on your bullet weight preferences) will come down to a 6mm and a 6.5mm.

And that's the future of the "everyman's" practical precision AR chambering.

You're probably right.  I thought the next 'it' caliber would be a 6mm Grendel, but it looks like it'll be 224V for awhile.

Well, you never know. If Hornady was on the ball, they'd have a 6mm something in Skunkworks right now. You know it's been discussed at all the major corps. Unfortunately, marketing timing/success often has little to do with the rubber-meets-the-road viability of the product.

Alexander has finally opened up the 6.5 Grendel to outside manufacturers.  I just bought a 6.5 Grendel from Alexander and ammo from Hornady. I haven't shot long distance with it yet. At 100 yards it was MOA during break in. I really like the rifle. I expect you'll see the Grendel gain popularity but it will be hard to convince Creemore owners to switch.

I have read that the 6mmAR/6mmGrendel is not easy on barrels. I would love that 6mm performance in my AR15 but its a barrel burner when loaded to its potential.

While the 6.5g has a very long barrel life.

Yeah, it's amazing how much advancement and market popularity is held back by stupid IP squabbling and ego. Disruptive technology only becomes so with mass adoption, and being myopic about that helps nobody. The Grendel case in point is a demonstration why there are few magazine options, dedicated optic reticles, and so forth. Folks are lucky that Wolf is saving their asses in the Grendel realm......without cheap ammo these days, a cartridge will go nowhere. There would be a lot more 300BLK seen on the ranges if there was affordable ammo out there for it.

I'm planning on an SBR Grendel - it's better than the Creedmoor AR10 for purposes of small, lighter everything. It's not going to substitute for a serious DMR mission with routine 700+yd engagement, but a 12" suppressed Grendel with appropriate sights will be perfect as a do-everything gun, including deer hunting. And as DMR at most practical ranges. No way in hell I'm building a sub-16" Creedmoor.

With proper marketing/approach, I think that the Grendel and a 6mm version can easily be viewed as complimentary to the Creedmoor pair.

It's always a question of "relative to what"....vs. a .223, well of course not. Relative to a hot .22? Better. Relative to hand-loaded .308-class 6mm? Much better. If people load the .224V to it's potential (which they will be doing, given the marketing mindset), the 6mmAR will look reaaaaly nice. That's part of my point - the market will figure it out, but after spending several million bucks to play.

I should drag the local 6mmAR shooters in here - they've been kicking ass in our local long range matches against bolt 6.5's and 6's. They've also had very good barrel life.

Any idea what kind of round count they are getting with the 6mm? I don't shoot in matches so I would sacrifice a bit of velocity to increase my barrel life.

I've messaged one of them to come on in, hopefully he shows. I don't want to mis-quote them, and they are shooting 6mm RATs and loading them up. But well over 2000rds.

Think about a normal 6mmAR - very similar to a 6mmBR - which has phenomenal barrel life unless you abuse it. The 6.5's extend barrel life by quite a bit, for sure. The Grendel should have .308-style barrel life unless abused. My primary emphasis on the barrel life point is that I would expect the .224V to reduce accuracy life to sub 2000rds.

I think you will see a mainstream 6mm in the ar15 in the pretty near future.  Really the 6mm is pretty much ideal for the case capacity that is possible in a ar15 weapon, currently the x39 case and 6.8 spc case.  Probably see the 6mm come from the spc case as it will allow manufacturers to push the pressure up to near 58k.  I would think a 6mm v. could push a 100 gr to 2700 and a 107 to 2600 out of a 20" barrel.

I’m thinking about getting  a 6.5 Grendel as Virginia doesn’t let you deer hunt without a bullet diameter of .23 or larger. That even kills the 224 Valkyrie for me which I believe would work well for whitetail under 300 yards. I would go with 6mm if something really good was available in a factory supported round with a good selection of plinking and hunting ammo. The AR10 weights too much and has too much recoil for my jacked up shoulder(serious rotor cuff surgery). I have a 300 blackout but It just seems to lack a little. I’m a big fan of 12.5” barrels as the handle easily and suppressed they don’t seem to long. Interesting times we live in.

This is pretty much the classic use case for a 6mm. The Grendel would obviously do the trick too, but the 6 would recoil less in a 8lb rifle for sure.

Actually, the 103gr ELD-X would be a perfect hunting and LR bullet in a 6mmAR case out of a shorter tube.

Is this what you guys are talking about?
here?

This has always looked interesting to me. A barrel burner sure but sheese thats power in a small package.



243 wssm

ScottyS, excellent analysis and I strongly agree.

224V is not "multi-purpose" enough and will eventually languish as very much a niche cartridge — despite the current hype. Yes, I'm going on record with my prediction that it will not exceed sales of 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and .300 Blk and will be "retired" within 3 years. Then, again, some said man would never fly a heavier-than-air craft.

What WILL rock the AR world is a 6mm "Grendel," as improved by Robert Whitley into his 6mmAR Turbo version. Take his 6mmAR Turbo and stretch the case a bit and it will be The Next Big Thing. Whoever gets there first and actually does it right, will dominate the market and make a ton of money. The rest of us will have a lot of fun.

What does it mean to "do it right"? Easy. I've laid it out here in detail.

It is like a fat, juicy red apple that one just needs to reach out his hand and pick. Gawd, I wish I ran Hornady. . . .

Melonite the barrel and barre life is basically a non issue.

Exactly.

1) I don't think the .224V will "get retired", but I do think that it will remain niche, with not a wide user base. It's got some great aspects to it, and honestly I would be more interested in faster ~60-70gr long range varmint laser loads as opposed to the 90gr being touted as the killer app. Same reason I like the idea of the .20 Practical.

2) In thinking about it a little bit, here are some "must-haves" for your discussion and any engineers/marketing:
a. Magazine construction: Design params must allow for polymer mag manufacture.
b. Base case: think hard about a shorter, modified .22 Nosler (rebated rim, better capacity).
c. OAL: must allow comfortable seating of 110gr SMK, size and place the neck accordingly.
d. Don't worry *too* much about handloading/brass compatibility. Production spin-up and market reliance on good factory ammo is way ahead of that 1990 mentality.

3) Yes, in practice, a 6mm short Nosler won't "blow the .224V out of the water", but there are a number of key reasons why it's the end game.
a. Larger, "game legal" diameter.
b. Nice selection of heavy hunting bullets as well as killer long range projectiles.
c. Real-world results will show better wind drift and increase in hits at long range.

In all honesty, I would seriously consider building both 6mm and 6.5mm short Noslers before using the Grendel case (for the two reasons of magazines and head size), unless the R&D process showed some problem with inherent accuracy or functioning. Unlikely though. Just get the taper, neck design, and neck position right. Plenty of results out there with all the short 6mm's in the BR and F-class world. One could expand that family to use .22 and 6.8 bore sizes as well: it would be friendly to long bullets and let the tinkerers argue endlessly about which one was better.

Normally I don't go in for petty discussion about differences in minor cartridge design. Because regardless of what the paper trajectories say, practice is what puts bullets on target, not 5-10% improvement in drift. Better to have lots of ammo to practice with rather than a barrel burning laser that eats Benjamins for breakfast.

But in this case, there is a clear hole for the "ideal" AR15 platform round that industry hasn't filled yet, and that's why I wrote this up.

You happen to have dimensional specs on the 6mm 110 SMK? I swear to God I have called them 9 times to ask their techs and simply CANNOT get through to a live person. I want to know the nose length of the 6mm 110.

Good thread, Scotty.

Great points you make and I agree.  So now our question comes to WHEN (not if) the 6mm AR chambers start to go mainstream, which ones will rise to the top.  Because of the success of the 6.5 Grendel I'm FAR more likely to say that a 6mm Grendel will outpace a 6mm version of the 6.8, there's simply the issue that the easy to find cheap accurate ammo for the Grendel has been a huge factor in pushing it to the top.  In order to capitalize on that you'd really need to stick with the same mags and bolt, and if you want to ensure that the 6mm Grendel is solidified in the shooting community all you have to do is get Wolf to make steel cased ammo for it.

Leaving all the performance differences of the 6.8 vs 6.5G alone, the reason the Grendel will still be around in 50 years is because Wolf teamed up with Bill Alexander.  If that hadn't happened a LOT of us wouldn't have moved from 5.56.  Now that we have, we still want the advantages we got with the 6.5G and we want an added advantage of compatibility with our 6.5G we already invested in.

So I'm thinking that at this point, the small performance differences of the .223V, 6mm 6.8/G and any other 6mm offerings are totally offset by ammo availability and parts compatibility.

So I see a 6mm Grendel in our future soon.  Especially if Wolf is on board.

Good points, SCW. You're probably right, even though I think that industry needs to look really, really hard at a shorter Nosler case.

BFT: I don't have any on the bench right now (I know, bad!), but some local guys shoot the 110s in 6mm Creedmoors. As an excellent ballpark estimate, you could look at some bullet lineups and estimate using Sketchup or something similar. There's a decent photo and a little information from this early blog post (guy was running a 1:8, so meh). The 110 is bloody long, which is why I say that the 6mmARwhatever needs to be spec'd for this. It would cover that bullet as well as future lengthy 6mm LR bullets.
https://rifleshooter.com/2016/12/sierra-6mm-110-smk-6-creedmoor-and-6x47-lapua-initial-impressionsload-development/

@Cavitation

Sort of, but not exactly - the 6.8 case is too long for the really long 6mm bullets. One of the reasons why the 6.8 crowd should not be yelling so hard at the Grendel people is that the 6.8 length and bore-to-capacity ratio leave it, sadly, hugely lacking in the mid- and long-range precision department. Guys that are trying to make the 6.8 out to be an equal to the Grendel probably don't have a good idea of what happens when the wind kicks up and gets switchy. The 6.8 is a fantastic short-range (0-400) improvement on the 5.56, but that's it.

The .224 V sets the mouth/neck back far enough to be a dedicated LR setup. Whatever the 6mm solution is, it will be similar.

I've been shooting a 243LBC/6 MM Grendel in an AR  for severl years in matches. Barrel life has not been an issue.  Several thousand rounds down range and it's still pounding away at 10 and X at 500 yards.  I built up a Savage also and it is now my go to lR gun. Super accuracy and the barrel wear is not rearing it's head at all. Stuff it full of 95's and it flat sings. Stick 105's in it and the fun continues.  I also have shot literally thousands of rounds through AR and bolt acton  full 6X6.8's shooting 87's and 95's. Nothing to sneeze at there but the 105's are just too long to play well.

For simplicity and ease of component choice the Grendel based case is the best IMHO but knowing how the industry has been thinking I think we'll see it on a 6.8 even with the bullet COL issue.

Greg

It's funny you should write this, I just ordered a .243 barrel for my DPMS Oracle.  Mine is 20 inches, and lightweight, with a 1 in 9-inch twist.  I have had .223 fail on coyotes and even coons.  I practice with .223 just like I do with .22LR, but when I hunt I want something bigger.

I would certainly consider a 6mm on the AR-15 frame.  You can get a 6mm PPC upper from Model One Sales, I think.

I'm still impressed every time I see this video.  And it's been improved upon with the Turbo 40* and Fat Rat

There are a number of us that shoot 6 fat rats and 6mmAr 40 improved. They are virtually identical. Based off of the grendel but sized down to 6mm and blown out. The 105 vlds are kinda long even with a worked on mag. The 108s, and shorter 105s can be launched at 2850 to 2890 with great brass and barrel life. The accuracy is comparable to my bolt guns. We have won our fair share of match ribbons with this round in the wind out to 850 against a predominately bolt gun crowd. We do give up wind against other faster 6s and some 6.5s, but they more than deliver in the accuracy and consistency  dept.

We have mag fed them very reliably in tactical matches and hunting. It does take a bit of tuning with the right carrier weight and spring combo. They shoot 87 vlds just as accurately at 3025... again mag fed with no hiccups.

Its just a remarkable chambering for a great platform.... they are cheater guns.

There's a couple candidates out there:

.243V - just the .223 V necked up to 6mm

6mm Grendel

However what really needs to happen is a new rifle class - AR12 - designed for a 2.5-2.6" COL, with a beefed up bolt and barrel to allow 6.8SPC / 30 Remington brass based cartridges to be run at 55k-62kpsi ala 5.56. This gives you a weapon with substantially more room for enhanced performance ammo then is available with the AR15 magwell, with a weapon smaller and lighter then the AR10:

AMU .264 USA AR12 prototype shown in the middle:


With an AR12, something like the 6mm HAGAR would be the heat:

6BRX would be awesome, 105gr VLDs at over 3,000fps.  But it's not likely as it won't work in any standard bolt or barrel extension.  It'd be a great candidate in CMMG's Anvil.

Do it.

I took 6 whitetail with 6 shots from my 16” Grendel this season.

Only had to track one and it ran 200 yards because I missed about 2 inches aft.

The ones I hit in the boiler room were DRT with 123 grain SSTs.

This round works as promoted for whitetail.

Eh. I like 223.

If I wanted better, I'd go 6cm in a bolt gun.

I doubt it.  Much of the drive behind AR variant cartirdges is the desire to have a "better" hunting round.  The 224V does not have that selling point to much of the market.  The others such as the 6.8, 6.5 and even SS 300BO rounds do.

The 224V can reach out, no doubt about it.  What it can't do is have the requisite, 6mm or bigger factor that many people and states require.  I will hunt with a .223 caliber round but I keep my shot choices very close.  The 224V can stretch the distance a bit but won't surpass the heavier fatter bullets that the other variants provide.

It is cool if you are shooting paper, chucks or rocks.

Hunters drive most of the AR variant market.

@tonysnoo

There ya are - thanks for chiming in. What kind of throat life seems to be common across the 6mmARimp community? I know you've done a lot of research besides shooting them.

Why go to all that trouble when the G2s are available?

Totally agree on new rifle size. That would really open up a big barrel of possibilities and capabilities.

You've already got the LWRC Six8, but with the DPMS GII, it doesn't make sense to have another intermediate platform when you could just step up to 6 CM with negligible weight and size gains.

I bought one of the Larue SUURG uppers in 6.5 Grendel!

You get 30rd magazines, assault rifle handling, and you open a new class of lighter weight cartridges then available with a 7.62x51 parent case.

If the rifle is designed to be modular (LMT style quick change barrel) you can have the AR12 use two type of mags:

AR12 M1 Mag: .30 Remington based cartridges (6.8spc long, .22 Nosler, 6mm HAGAR, .224 V, etc)

AR12 M2 Mag: 5.56 based wildcats loaded long (5.56 VLD, 6x45 VLD, 7.62 TCU, etc)

There's a lot of cool different things you could do.

AR12s don't even exist...

LWRC Six8 already exists.

The 6mm / (22) Nosler would be a nice step but I'm not sure that it would be enough of a step up to make me switch.  Here is a project that I started back in 2013.  The conversion was done by a member here and he did an outstanding job.  It is the 6mm TCU (Improved), not the 6mmx45. Hundreds of rounds now have gone down the bbl that have accounted for a high number (400+) of Sage Rats (like a Prairie Dog only smaller) and a few coyotes, plus mule deer and Antelope.  I know it works and that out to 300 yards a coyote is in trouble.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/6mm_TCU_project_using_a__take_off__PPC_barrel/121-625522/?

Just a thought.
Bill in OR

Cough cough






http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2941

The LWRC Six8 is a step in the right direction, and shows where a AR-12 could be headed. However the COL of the Six8 is still limited to 2.3" - not the 2.5"-2.6" we need for shooting VLD .224, 6mm and 6.5mm with larger cases.

If we look at 6mm HAGAR, pretty much the "ideal" 6mm Assault Rifle round, you can see that the 2.26-2.3" COL is far too limiting for shooting the interesting bullets.

I'm not sure what the point of this is. 224V delivers great performance with one additional grain of powder. It fits in PMAGs or existing steel mags. It has a great selection of bullets.

Stepping up to 6MM means a new suppressor, probably a longer rifle. Why mess with it? Is the additional performance at all important.

6mm grendel would work fine from the current magazine length all that would really be needed to squeeze every last drop of performance is the beefed up bolt and barrel similar to the mutant.
Problem with these changes is weight gets up into the small frame range and you might as well just use a 6mm creedmor or 6.5.

Agree to me the ar15 only makes sense in a light gun with 18" or less barrel unless its just for plinking.  Want a dedicated LR its going to be heavy anyhow so go with the AR10.  Hunting and general purpose the AR15 needs to be light enough to justify going with it over a small frame AR10.  To me thats a max of 8lbs with optic and max 18" barrel

Thing is a G2 with a 16" barrel pretty much weighs the same as the purposed ar12.  With the G2 you can run a 6mm creedmor if  you want to keep recoil down.  Even the Mutant class of guns with the beefed up bolt and same size magwell don't really save much weight vs a small frame AR10.  With the AR10 you get current wide spread and cheap cartridge options and those options can offer more performance if needed.

It will have to be really(like shut up and take my money). They are selling intro level bolt guns in plenty of options and 6.5 creedmoor, grendal. I got a TC Compass once i receive the rebate for $225.00. I like what you guys are dreaming up, but it sounds like a lot of money for a new platform. My folks enjoy the AR platform, and I was so close to ordering a grendal just to that fact. Though when you got a saturated market of very reasonable bolt guns wouldn't you think it is just smarter to get a savage that you can take barrel off and on just like an AR?

6.5 creedmoor is like 22lr on the shelf too. I think it is going to be around for awhile. JMHO.

Eh, "fits" to me means you can stuff MAYBE 5-6 rounds into a PMAG, then the mag swells too much to fit into the magwell. You really need the stainless steel 6.8SPC mags for consistently reliable feeding.

Or, I guess you could build a .224V rifle off a Six8 receiver set and use the bigger 6.8 PMAGs -- if that's what you mean by "fits" into PMAGs.

I do know that 6.5 Grendel does not work correctly in the Six8 PMAGs, so I think it remains to be seen if the 224V rounds will work. Since the 224V case uses 6.8SPC bolts I think there is cause for cautious optimism, but as with all things gun-related, Murphy waits in the wings.

The Six8 PMAG will work with .224V. LWRC has already confirmed this and is planning on releasing a .224V Six8 pattern rifle.