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Posted: 1/14/2009 9:22:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2009 9:06:12 PM EDT
All that time that GW was in power and he never once raised a finger to get that inane "not particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes" language removed from any and all Federal gun statutes!  That chump didn't do anything to help our cause in all his years except make sure the slime bill sunsetted.  It's a crying shame.  No national carry rights.  Nothing.  Since when was the 2nd ammendment about sporting purposes?!  

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 9:47:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By petemacmahon:
All that time that GW was in power and he never once raised a finger to get that inane "not particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes" language removed from any and all Federal gun statutes!  That chump didn't do anything to help our cause in all his years except make sure the slime bill sunsetted.  It's a crying shame.  No national carry rights.  Nothing.  Since when was the 2nd ammendment about sporting purposes?!  



Bush also strip us of our rights to protect our homes in times of crisis.

Military and police can take our weapons from us.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:17:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2009 5:12:18 PM EDT by MOS11C]
tagged for reference
Link Posted: 3/30/2009 9:25:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 5:13:09 PM EDT
Okay Guys,
So what is the real deal on de-milling here in the USA to send to here in the USA from an unlicensed individual?
 If I have to de-mill one of my builds how many cuts. Can I just do one right down the middle?
And If I do two do I have to leave one section out when I sent it ?
What about saw cuts vs. torch?
 I've seen a lot of variations.
Link Posted: 4/15/2009 10:22:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:13:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 9:17:36 AM EDT by Black-Wolf]
The part of this letter, and the regulations as well, that I find highly debated when interpreted is this:

Paragraph 1 of the Answer states, "an unlicensed individual may make a firearm as defined in the GCA for his
own personal use, but not for sale or distribution".

However, the very last sentence of the letter states, "...the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully
transferred in the future
."

I see a conflict in Para 1 with the last sentence of this letter.  Para 1 states, "not for sale or distribution", but the last sentence states it should be identified "in case it is transferred".    How can you transfer it without distributing it?  The conflict at hand.

Therefore, I have come to interpret the regulations and this letter to mean that in Para 1, you cannot make a "firearm" with the INTENT to sell or distribute it, otherwise, you would require a manufacturer's FFL - consistent with the GCA.  However, nothing prohibits the firearm to be made for personal use and then later sold or distributed later in time provided it is transferred legally (serial #'d, legal buyer, etc) - as noted in the last sentence of this letter.  This view is consistent with other ATF interpretations as well (ie. C&R holders selling their collections).  Additionally, it would seem that if this view is not held that it would be illegal and prohibited for anyone to assemble any firearm (including AR15s or 1911s) from various parts and then later sell them.  And finally, if Paragraph 1 were to mean that an individual can never, ever distribute a self-made firearm (from a kit or otherwise), what is to happen to the firearm at the time of the manufacturer's (individual's) death?  Bury it with the body?

I believe, and I am not any type of attorney or legal expert, that Para 1 of the letter is intended to prohibited non-licensed persons from making firearms with the INTENT of IMMEDIATE redistribution (for profit or otherwise) - as this would require an FFL license to do so...which is consistent with the definition of a licensed manufacturer.  

Furthermore, (and on a side note) - do the terms "manufacture", "assemble", and "make" all have the synonymous definition when equally used within the GCA?  Is a manufacturer a person who assembles a firearm but does not physically create or make (ie., manufacture) any of the parts?  For instance, if I "assemble" an AK47 from a parts kit - does that make me a "manufacturer?" when all I have done is "assemble" pre-made parts?  Just another argument to raise regarding the GCA and this issue.
Link Posted: 8/13/2009 2:37:56 AM EDT
I am a little slow, so just making sure... According the the above link, it is LEGAL to "assemble" an AK47 parts kits on a 100% receiver, such as nodak-spud or Ohio Ord, and then be able to sell/transfer at a later date? I take it, it is the same as assembling an AR and tranfser/selling?
Link Posted: 8/13/2009 10:59:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2009 11:14:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2009 11:18:26 AM EDT by Wombat]
Just because you can not 'make' it for sell or distribution does not mean you can not sell or transfer it at some later date!  There is no separate class of firearm for homemade guns; once it is made it is just the same legally as any other similar gun for federal law purposes.

That first part of the 'answer' is analogous to not being able legally to buy a bunch of guns in order to sell them, without an appropriate FFL.

Black-Wolf is mostly correct but only licensed manufactures and importers are required to mark firearms.  As an individual you never have to mark a firearm unless it is title 2 (MG, SBR, SBS, DD, AOW).
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 7:20:03 PM EDT
What they are basically saying is that you can't build it with the intent of selling it. IF you get tired of it later, no problem with selling or trading it. I've more than once had a friend ask me if I can build a kit for them. The answer is always, "NO. But I'll help you build it yourself."
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 2:19:06 AM EDT
I have a basic question, so is it legal to buy a ak flat bend it and make it into a  firearm with no markings on it if ti is for personal use , and can some one show me the laws  about this?
Link Posted: 9/29/2010 10:59:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sopmod89:
I have a basic question, so is it legal to buy a ak flat bend it and make it into a  firearm with no markings on it if ti is for personal use , and can some one show me the laws  about this?


Yes, it is legal, and is done all the time.  This forum should have links to pictures and tutorials. So do Calguns, and 1919A4.com among others.

You will need experience with tools and firearms, and borrow or buy some specialized tools for parts of it.  If you have trouble finding leads, email me.
Link Posted: 11/7/2010 1:46:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zoom6zoom:
What they are basically saying is that you can't build it with the intent of selling it. IF you get tired of it later, no problem with selling or trading it. I've more than once had a friend ask me if I can build a kit for them. The answer is always, "NO. But I'll help you build it yourself."


If you want to build a gun for your own use and not sell it you can

If you BUY an AK receiver from an FFL and put parts on it you are NOT "building a firearm" per Federal Law ,
it ALREADY WAS a firearm.

If you BOUGHT the receiver you can sell the finished gun JUST LIKE ANY OTHER GUN.

If you make a BUSINESS of doing this you need to HAVE an FFL.

Link Posted: 12/1/2010 9:07:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2010 9:08:52 AM EDT by Mach]
Originally Posted By Wombat:
Just because you can not 'make' it for sell or distribution does not mean you can not sell or transfer it at some later date!  There is no separate class of firearm for homemade guns; once it is made it is just the same legally as any other similar gun for federal law purposes.

That first part of the 'answer' is analogous to not being able legally to buy a bunch of guns in order to sell them, without an appropriate FFL.

Black-Wolf is mostly correct but only licensed manufactures and importers are required to mark firearms.  As an individual you never have to mark a firearm unless it is title 2 (MG, SBR, SBS, DD, AOW).


Link no longer works.

So if I bend my own, I don't have to have any marks on it at all as long as it's not NFA?

ETA:Question answered above.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 7:57:38 AM EDT
So can I bend a new reciever and build an AK without registering it with the ATF? Theres no paper work I have to do?
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 10:11:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 10:12:14 AM EDT by Mach]
Originally Posted By GreatExile:
So can I bend a new reciever and build an AK without registering it with the ATF? Theres no paper work I have to do?


as long as you don't build it for sale federally.

Your state laws may differ
Link Posted: 1/26/2012 1:09:27 PM EDT
Is there a new link for this, or does anyone have a copy saved?  I would specifically curious about the laws regarding me using tools at a friends place of business to build one AK kit on a reciever I bought from a dealer.  I understand this is legal since I'm doing the work and not him, but he wants to see something to prove that.
Link Posted: 1/26/2012 1:49:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2012 1:51:20 PM EDT by jdoming728]
the only thing you have to do is bend your own reciever and I don't see where it says you can't have some one help you when it comes to the welding butttttt.. when I help others I make sure they do all the work in the receiver including rivets just to keep me safe... Legally the receiver is not a fire arm till its bent..We don't have build parties here in New Mexico but when we get together to do some we all help out just make sure the owner actually bends the flat... You don't have to mark the receiver if you don't want to but I do have mine engraved before I bend them incase they get stolen I have record for the police..
Link Posted: 4/25/2012 10:06:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2012 10:08:26 AM EDT by Gunplumber]
It all falls on intent.

An unlicensed individual would be in violation of the law if he were to manufacture firearms for PURPOSE or resale.

He would not be in violation if manufactured firearms for personal use and subsequently decided to sell them.

I suspect that ATF would look at  the quantity, and the time between manufacturing and selling,  in making a determination as to a person's intent.  And then hope a jury would agree.

Link Posted: 5/6/2012 11:38:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2012 11:40:23 PM EDT by enforcer22]
I plan on doing a couple of builds with some kits I have had laying around for longer than I would care to admit. Even after speaking with our local ATF office I was not comfortable with not having serial numbers on a firearm in my possession. What I saw happening was I get a flat, bend it, assemble it with enough us parts to be in compliance with 922r, and finish it up real pretty. Now I am at the range shooting my new to me rifle and let someone else handle it or shoot it (which I am not shy about doing) they notice there is no serial numbers on it. (There are a lot of off duty law enforcement where I shoot.) Bam I get jammed up, rifle confiscated, and me in a court room having to prove it is completely 100% legal. Which would cost time, money, and probably considerable frustration. I recently finished out an 80% AR lower and just to avoid headaches had it engraved with a model, serial number, caliber and my city/state. Now I wont go as far as submitting a form 1 unless they are going to be SBR's but will have them engraved.
Link Posted: 1/4/2013 11:59:19 PM EDT
The link in the OP is no good any more. Does anyone have a link to the ATFs site where it says it's legal to build without a license? I KNOW I've seen it but can't find it now.
Link Posted: 1/5/2013 10:17:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2013 10:21:57 AM EDT by Gunplumber]
Our system is not based on  telling you what you can do.  The default is you can do anything you want.  The law specifically prohibits certain things.  It does not "allow", it only disallows.

The law states it is unlawful to manufacture for purpose of resale without a license.  

It does not state that it is unlawful to manufacture NOT for PURPOSE of resale without a license.

Thus there is no prohibition on manufacture if you are not doing so, to resell it.

Nor is there a prohibition on reselling if it was not your original intent.  You changed your mind and decided you wanted something else instead.

See 18 USC Ch 44 Sec 921, et al  There's also something in 27 CFR, but I can't remember the chapter.

Buying 20 parts kits and building 20 rifles "not for resale" and then a month later, having "changed your mind" and sold them all, may be hard to defend.  

But the assertion that one can never sell a home-build is a myth.  There is no prohibition.  Anything not prohibited is allowed.  



Link Posted: 1/31/2013 1:41:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2013 1:59:27 AM EDT by rattleakak]
It is clear  that one can transfer/sell/trade a firearm built by ones self (unlicensed manufacturer).  It is also clear that upon the manufacture of such firearm it DOES NOT have to be marked. What is NOT clear and muddy as hell, is whether or not it needs to be marked upon the tranfer to another individual. It seems that the ATF when asked about whether or not a firearm manufatured by unlicensed individuals need to be marked upon transfer/sell/trade responds to this question consistently with reference to 27 CFR 478.92. Which states:

(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

This it where it gets grey:

(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

This law is not speaking to the unlicensed manufacturer it clearly states thus defining, "You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify"So how can an unlicensed manufacturer have to abide by a law that as stated, clearly doesnt pertain nor include unlicensed manufacturers?

The terms Manufacturer and Licensed Manufacturer are clearly defined in CFR 27 478.11 as:

Manufacturer. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition. The term shall include any person who engages in such business on a part-time basis.
Licensed manufacturer. A manufacturer licensed under the provisions of this part.


Also the terms Manufacturer and Licensed Manufacturer are clearly defined in 18 USC CH44 Sec 921 as:

(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.


An unlicensed manufacurer or "home buider" is neither of those, making 27 CFR 478.92 void in regard to unlicensed manufacturers.

Also, why does it seem that even the ATF themsleves arent consistent in answering these questions? They just throw 27 CFR 478.92 at the question or dont know. There is no law on the books that I can find that states that an unlicensed manufacturer needs to mark the weapon if it is tranfered. But the individuals at the ATF continue  saying that it must be marked while citing no LAW that states that a firearm manufactured by an unlicensed person must be marked if it is transfered. How then can you be held to follow or break a law that doesnt exsist?

I believe the ATF, FBI, DHS, etc. would like you to serialize the weapon, but I see nothing that clearly states that you have to, (a law) other than by INDIVIDUALS at the ATF. This leads me to believe that there is no actual LAW on the books that states that you have to mark a gun you manufacture yourself at the time of transfer. I expect that the individuals at the ATF are interpreting law, arent they?.  Please if you know of such LAW let me know.
Link Posted: 1/31/2013 11:01:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rattleakak:
It is clear  that one can transfer/sell/trade a firearm built by ones self (unlicensed manufacturer).  It is also clear that upon the manufacture of such firearm it DOES NOT have to be marked. What is NOT clear and muddy as hell, is whether or not it needs to be marked upon the tranfer to another individual. It seems that the ATF when asked about whether or not a firearm manufatured by unlicensed individuals need to be marked upon transfer/sell/trade responds to this question consistently with reference to 27 CFR 478.92. Which states:

(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

This it where it gets grey:

(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

This law is not speaking to the unlicensed manufacturer it clearly states thus defining, "You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify"So how can an unlicensed manufacturer have to abide by a law that as stated, clearly doesnt pertain nor include unlicensed manufacturers?

The terms Manufacturer and Licensed Manufacturer are clearly defined in CFR 27 478.11 as:

Manufacturer. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition. The term shall include any person who engages in such business on a part-time basis.
Licensed manufacturer. A manufacturer licensed under the provisions of this part.


Also the terms Manufacturer and Licensed Manufacturer are clearly defined in 18 USC CH44 Sec 921 as:

(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.


An unlicensed manufacurer or "home buider" is neither of those, making 27 CFR 478.92 void in regard to unlicensed manufacturers.

Also, why does it seem that even the ATF themsleves arent consistent in answering these questions? They just throw 27 CFR 478.92 at the question or dont know. There is no law on the books that I can find that states that an unlicensed manufacturer needs to mark the weapon if it is tranfered. But the individuals at the ATF continue  saying that it must be marked while citing no LAW that states that a firearm manufactured by an unlicensed person must be marked if it is transfered. How then can you be held to follow or break a law that doesnt exsist?

I believe the ATF, FBI, DHS, etc. would like you to serialize the weapon, but I see nothing that clearly states that you have to, (a law) other than by INDIVIDUALS at the ATF. This leads me to believe that there is no actual LAW on the books that states that you have to mark a gun you manufacture yourself at the time of transfer. I expect that the individuals at the ATF are interpreting law, arent they?.  Please if you know of such LAW let me know.




"...the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

The BATFE uses the word should, there is no law requiring it to be engraved for an individual.
Link Posted: 2/24/2013 8:21:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2013 8:40:59 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Edited...VA-gunnut
 
Link Posted: 3/27/2013 6:27:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ak_:
Originally Posted By rattleakak:
It is clear  that one can transfer/sell/trade a firearm built by ones self (unlicensed manufacturer).  It is also clear that upon the manufacture of such firearm it DOES NOT have to be marked. What is NOT clear and muddy as hell, is whether or not it needs to be marked upon the tranfer to another individual. It seems that the ATF when asked about whether or not a firearm manufatured by unlicensed individuals need to be marked upon transfer/sell/trade responds to this question consistently with reference to 27 CFR 478.92. Which states:

(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

This it where it gets grey:

(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

This law is not speaking to the unlicensed manufacturer it clearly states thus defining, "You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify"So how can an unlicensed manufacturer have to abide by a law that as stated, clearly doesnt pertain nor include unlicensed manufacturers?

The terms Manufacturer and Licensed Manufacturer are clearly defined in CFR 27 478.11 as:

Manufacturer. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition. The term shall include any person who engages in such business on a part-time basis.
Licensed manufacturer. A manufacturer licensed under the provisions of this part.


Also the terms Manufacturer and Licensed Manufacturer are clearly defined in 18 USC CH44 Sec 921 as:

(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.


An unlicensed manufacurer or "home buider" is neither of those, making 27 CFR 478.92 void in regard to unlicensed manufacturers.

Also, why does it seem that even the ATF themsleves arent consistent in answering these questions? They just throw 27 CFR 478.92 at the question or dont know. There is no law on the books that I can find that states that an unlicensed manufacturer needs to mark the weapon if it is tranfered. But the individuals at the ATF continue  saying that it must be marked while citing no LAW that states that a firearm manufactured by an unlicensed person must be marked if it is transfered. How then can you be held to follow or break a law that doesnt exsist?

I believe the ATF, FBI, DHS, etc. would like you to serialize the weapon, but I see nothing that clearly states that you have to, (a law) other than by INDIVIDUALS at the ATF. This leads me to believe that there is no actual LAW on the books that states that you have to mark a gun you manufacture yourself at the time of transfer. I expect that the individuals at the ATF are interpreting law, arent they?.  Please if you know of such LAW let me know.




"...the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

The BATFE uses the word should, there is no law requiring it to be engraved for an individual.



Fantastic, thanks fellas.
Link Posted: 11/6/2014 2:27:51 AM EDT
If you want to build a gun for your own use and not sell it you can.Wait
Link Posted: 11/6/2014 10:43:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2014 10:44:17 AM EDT by Gunplumber]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dependence:
If you want to build a gun for your own use and not sell it you can.Wait
View Quote


(sigh)

Do we need to start all over?  Or will you go back and read the thread before posting your incorrect information.

There is no law prohibiting one from selling a home-made gun.
It is unlawful to manufacture/assemble a gun  for the purpose of resale without a type 7 FFL.

Do you understand the difference?
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