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Page AK-47 » Ammunition
AK Sponsor: palmetto
Posted: 8/29/2019 2:23:24 PM EDT
I picked up some ammo that I do not know very much about and was wondering if anyone had any experience with it.  
It is Czech ZM43 with a headstamp bxn 76.  Blue over white tip bullets.

Picture of bullet

I have not fired a round yet.  
I am assuming it is a tracer that flashes when impacting on targets and that the ammo is corrosive.
Guessing It would be wise to wait until wet/rainy conditions to test it out.
Link Posted: 8/29/2019 3:08:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Blue tip white band beneath:
Short range ball 14,5x114 (only Hungarian and Czech designation)

Link
Link Posted: 8/29/2019 3:22:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Blue tip white band beneath:
Short range ball 14,5x114 (only Hungarian and Czech designation)

Link
View Quote
Thanks wildearp.  
Sounds like short range practice ammo.
I will test it out next time at the range.
Link Posted: 8/29/2019 3:41:18 PM EDT
[#3]
I have a bunch of the white tip that would not run in my 20" AR but works well in my 14.5" for some reason. It is underpowered, but still has good bang to it.

I must have gotten a great deal on it, because no matter how much of it I shoot, it seems like I am never going to run out.

Too bad they don't list bullet weights and velocity.  I should chrony it sometime and pull a bullet just for giggles.
Link Posted: 8/30/2019 12:28:13 PM EDT
[#4]
This is NOT spotter ammunition.

It is reduced range tracer designed to go with the white tipped, reduced range ball round called the Rd.43.

Off the top of my head they are in the 55 gr range at 3,000 fps or so.

The tip color is supposed to be green over white, but it looks more blue/teal when it is applied over the white...

Definately corrosive.

I loved the ball rounds back when they were cheap. Never saw the tracers in shooting quantity, only had them in my cartridge collection. As I recall, the tracer element was very similar to the one used in the regular tracer round.

Wolfganggross has one I sectioned, maybe he can post a pic of it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2019 9:24:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is NOT spotter ammunition.

It is reduced range tracer designed to go with the white tipped, reduced range ball round called the Rd.43.
View Quote
1Devildog, thanks for the clarification.

I am guessing the ZM43 reduced range tracer rounds were part of the shipment that included the RD43 practice ball rounds available now from sgammo.
Link Posted: 9/1/2019 5:46:12 PM EDT
[#6]
It has been known to happen by mistake, but last I knew, it is not legal to purposely import tracers for civilian sales.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 10:20:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is NOT spotter ammunition.

It is reduced range tracer designed to go with the white tipped, reduced range ball round called the Rd.43.

Off the top of my head they are in the 55 gr range at 3,000 fps or so.

The tip color is supposed to be green over white, but it looks more blue/teal when it is applied over the white...

Definately corrosive.

I loved the ball rounds back when they were cheap. Never saw the tracers in shooting quantity, only had them in my cartridge collection. As I recall, the tracer element was very similar to the one used in the regular tracer round.

Wolfganggross has one I sectioned, maybe he can post a pic of it.
View Quote
A little correction, this round was designed to be used in the Czech PUS-7 Subcaliber trainer chambered in 7.62x39mm for the RPG-7.  Its at the very least a daytime tracer, I believe it is also a spotter.  I just got a bunch so I'll test it out to confirm that it gives a flash/smoke on impact.  Supposedly it was also used in the subcaliber 7.62x39mm adaptor for the Czech T-21 82mm recoilless gun.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 12:27:27 AM EDT
[#8]
No its not. I've taken them apart and sectioned them. They are short range tracers. I have no idea where the idea of these being spotters came from, but it is BS.
The PUS-7 (originally a Russian design) was designed for regular, full power T45 tracer rounds. The Zm43 was designed as a companion round to the Rd43 ball round for reduced range training out of regular 7.62x39mm weapons. The only "Spotter" round used in RPG trainers was a repurposed BZ43 API projectile in an odd, double cartridge adaptor for the PAS-7. If you bought these thinking they were spotter-tracers, you got had. Don't believe me? There is a thread about these in the International Cartridge Collector's discussion forum. Google it...
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 12:58:47 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No its not. I've taken them apart and sectioned them. They are short range tracers. I have no idea where the idea of these being spotters came from, but it is BS.
The PUS-7 (originally a Russian design) was designed for regular, full power T45 tracer rounds. The Zm43 was designed as a companion round to the Rd43 ball round for reduced range training out of regular 7.62x39mm weapons. The only "Spotter" round used in RPG trainers was a repurposed BZ43 API projectile in an odd, double cartridge adaptor for the PAS-7. If you bought these thinking they were spotter-tracers, you got had. Don't believe me? There is a thread about these in the International Cartridge Collector's discussion forum. Google it...
View Quote
No need be bitchy, I said it was at least a daylight tracer, and from a variety of sources online(some from Czech websites) they say its a spotter round.  Hence, why I said I would shoot some to confirm.  I bought them knowing they were at least tracers.  At less than $0.50 a round its cheaper or as cheap as just about any other 7.62x39 tracer.  No skin off my back if they just end up being nice tracers.  Bought them as tracers, hoped they'd be better than typical T45 tracers at shorter ranges, be nice if they are spotters like people have said they are.  I've got plenty so I'll let you know how they shoot.

On what was used in the PUS-7(ZM43 vs the T45), a very knowledgeable Czech guy(Nabob) on BOCN(which I'm a member also) has said its the ZM43 round.  So far he's the closest guy I've found to an expert in the PUS-7 and when it comes to Czech cartridges and weapons, I'd take the opinion of a Czech ordnance guy over some guy on ARFCOM.  You may be right, you may be wrong.  I'm sure you got your information from the PUS-7 manual or some other Czech military written source so if you could post that, I'd love to see it to clear this up.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 2:20:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Having been a collector of 7.62x39mm cartridges for over 30 years, I get annoyed when bum info is getting spread around about something I'm pretty knowledgeable about, and in the case of these rounds, have personal hands on experience with. Like I said, check out the IAA discussion forum on this very topic. There are world experts in this subject, many of them from the Czech Republic, on that forum. I trust their information.
Link Posted: 9/14/2019 10:41:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Having been a collector of 7.62x39mm cartridges for over 30 years, I get annoyed when bum info is getting spread around about something I'm pretty knowledgeable about, and in the case of these rounds, have personal hands on experience with. Like I said, check out the IAA discussion forum on this very topic. There are world experts in this subject, many of them from the Czech Republic, on that forum. I trust their information.
View Quote
@1Devildog
I agree 100%, its very frustrating when people spread bum info.  Especially when they claim to be an "expert" to back up their bum info.  In my original post I corrected you that these 43-ZM/ZM43 rounds were actually used in the Czech variation of the PUS-7(VH-7A) Subcaliber adapter.  You claimed that that was incorrect, that it actually used the regular T45-type full power tracers and that the ZM43 was only used out of regular 7.62x39 weapons as a companion round to the Rd43 short range round.

So here are some copies of an original manual for the Czech PUS-7/VH-7A subcaliber adapter.  You can translate these pages yourself if you wish, I have.  I assume in your 30 years of collecting uncommon 7.62x39 you never bothered to verify your info with original sources.  There are 3 pages in the manual where ammunition type is mentioned.  First photo from chapter 1, part 1.  Second photo is from chapter 2, part 1.  Then you have the third photo, the technical summary.  That sums it up best and most succinctly.  Forth line down, it says "Používané náboje......7.62-43-ZM", which translates to "Cartridge used.......7.62-43-ZM".  The other two pages say the same thing, just with more words.
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Link Posted: 9/16/2019 2:14:43 PM EDT
[#12]
agb,

We seem to be in disagreement on the semantics of whether this cartridge was "designed for" or "used in" the RPG trainer. Clearly it was used in the trainer, but I maintain that it was not "designed" for it, nor is it a spotter. I have sectioned a specimen of this cartridge and can conform that it contains no spotting charge, simply a tracer capsule. This projectile, with identical color code, also exists in Czech 7.62x45mm from the 1950's which further reinforces the origins and intent of this cartridge type to be a short range trainer for rifles and machine guns.

Again, I refer you to the recent discussion on this round at the IAA cartridge discussion forum, where this round is clearly identified as a short range tracer for use in all 7.62x39mm chambered weapons.
Link Posted: 10/15/2019 6:47:14 AM EDT
[#13]
Was always told its a Short Range Tracer (SRT).  Used to be kinda rare, hence the $18 price tag.  No spotter chemical compound, all tracer element.  My cuts are on the left, Devildog on right.
(However, sometimes people consider tracers as incendiaries or spotters when they hit a hard target early on in its life.  The impact spreads the tracer compound making a small flash, while setting fires to anything combustible.)
The other is a RPG trainer that consists of a normal tracer and a blank (to have blowback feel), connected together with a 22 blank setting it off.  Very expensive at around $150 for complete unbroken collector set, but was given some broken ones to make a complete round.

wolfganggross

Link Posted: 10/15/2019 10:38:55 AM EDT
[#14]
Nice display!

I always wanted to get one of those double-ended RPG trainers to section... Interesting that the tracer is T-45 style, not the Czech Sv. 43 tracer variety.

I still have the first Czech 7.62x39 SRT I ever found, back around 1992-93. Paid $20 for it. Funny how they are worth less than a buck now!

Same with the Soviet 5.45 ball rounds that first started turning up in the late 80s @ $20 each, and now I can buy them at the local gun shop for $.20 ...
Link Posted: 10/15/2019 9:53:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Thanks for all the replies and information.  
Interesting ammo.
Page AK-47 » Ammunition
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