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Posted: 5/25/2015 12:19:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2017 11:38:22 AM EDT by bluefalcon]
As requested, here is a list of my gelatin tests. All of my own tests are performed with 10% calibrated gelatin and the BB calibration results are given in the description.

I'd like this thread to include tests from other folks as well. If you know of any 7.62x39mm tests that include solid data, please post them and I'll copy/paste them into the OP. Please include measurements.



123 gr Hornady SST



123 gr Hornady SST loaded over 25.2 grains of Hodgdon H4198 (this load produces the same velocity as the Hornady factory load) and fired from a Norinco SKS (21" bbl) into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB calibration: 609.3 3.7"

Impact velocity: 2,284 fps
Penetration: 16.7"
Retained weight: 77.0 gr
Max expansion: 0.583"
Min expansion: 0.412"



120 gr Winchester PDX1 fired from 10.5" & 16" AKs



Winchester 120 gr PDX1 fired from 10.5" Zastava M92 PAP and 16" WASR-10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 593.5 fps, 3.6"

16" WASR-10/63

Impact velocity: 2,362 fps
Penetration: greater than 22.5"
Retained weight: N/A
Max expansion: N/A
Min expansion: N/A

I shot the 16" portion of the test twice and both times the bullet fragmented dramatically and the remaining portion left the block at an oblique angle.


10.5" M92 PAP

Impact velocity: 2,182 fps
Penetration: 12.9"
Retained weight: 111.4 gr
Max expansion: 1.048" *
Min expansion: 0.193" *

*Please bear in mind that the expansion figures here are not proper. The bullet was completely mangled and there was no real expansion.

I don't often give my opinion in the description but I think this one merits a quick note. It certainly appears that this bullet would be useful for defense. Both tests shown and the one that I omitted indicate that the bullet will meet the minimum penetration requirement while producing substantial stretch cavity and fragmentation. It bothers me that the recovered bullet is so beat up, though. This certainly could be a viable self defense option but I think it bears a lot more testing.

Speaking of more testing, take a look at this test from Everyday Gunner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzQ6fdG6rwo



154 gr TulAmmo soft point



TulAmmo 154 gr soft point fired from 16" WASR 10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 592.2 fps, 3.3"


Impact velocity: 2,177
Penetration: 15.8"
Retained weight: 142.5 gr
Max expansion: 0.754"
Min expansion: 0.603"

It's important to note that not all ammunition is created equally, especially when it comes to ammo produced in the former Soviet states. Here is an excellent video from The Ammo Channel in which Herter's 154 gr soft point entirely fails to expand. If you haven't already subscribed to his channel, take a look.

https://youtu.be/BOHrY9KiR2A



123 gr Fusion



Federal 123 gr Fusion soft point fired from 16" WASR-10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 588.5 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: ~2,267 fps
Penetration: 15.1"
Retained weight: 117.4 gr
Max expansion: 0.759"
Min expansion: 0.460"
Neck: 0.5"
TSC: 2.5"x8"

The chronograph missed the velocity of the gel shot but I was able to catch a velocity reading immediately after, which is what is listed for the impact velocity.

Big thanks to radiotom from 10mm-firearms.com for providing the ammo.



122 gr Wolf HP (short barrel)



122 gr Wolf HP fired from 10.5" barrel Zastava M92 PAP into 10% gelatin.

NOTE: The gelatin failed calibration, due to being out of the temperature range. BB calibration result was 592.5 fps, 4.5". (velocity was within range, penetration should be 2.95"-3.74")


Impact velocity: 2,206 fps
Penetration: N/A
Retained weight: 108.1 gr
Max expansion: 0.921"
Min expansion: 0.478"

As you can see in the image of the jacket recovered from the third jug, this bullet does have cuts on the inside of the jacket. I tested a TulAmmo 124 gr HP recently that also had the cuts but did not fragment. This video actually represents three shots. One into water and two into gelatin. In each shot, it appeared to fragment substantially. Because the BB calibration was out of spec, I can't speculate on the penetration depth, but there is no reason to believe that it wouldn't have been at least 13" based on the recovered weight of the projectile. The block is approximately 14" long across the middle.



Double Tap 123 gr TSX



Double Tap 123 gr Barnes TSX Fired from 16" WASR-10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 592.8 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 2,300 fps
Penetration: 14" of gelatin and 6" of water jug, bullet was found between 1st and 2nd jug
Retained weight: 103.2 gr
Max expansion: 0.563"
Min expansion: 0.336"

This load has a heavy crimp and uses PPU brass. Bullets measure 0.310".



S&B 123gr SP



7.62x39mm Sellier & Bellot 123 gr jacketed soft point fired from WASR-10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin. This ammunition is brass cased and boxer primed with a heavy crimp on the case mouth. The projectile measures 0.311"

BB: 592.8 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 2,438 fps
Penetration: 14" of gelatin, 6" of water jug
Retained weight: 81.5 gr
Max expansion: 0.608"
Min expansion: 0.475"



TulAmmo 124 gr HP



Tula 124 gr HP fired from 16" WASR-10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 592.2 fps, 3.3"

Impact velocity: 2,466 fps
Penetration: Greater than 10"

The bullet yawed and exited the top. It left a couple fragments behind but doesn't appear to have fragmented very much.

TulAmmo 124 gr soft point





TulAmmo 124 gr soft point fired from 16" SAR-1 into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 597.1 fps, 3.4"

Impact velocity: 2,526 fps
Penetration: 11.3"
Retained weight: 89.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.809"
Min expansion: 0.514"

Fusion windshield test



Barnaul 125 gr JSP




7.62x39mm Barnaul 125 gr jacketed soft point fired from 16" barreled WASR-10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB calibration: 588.7 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 2,523 fps
Penetration: 13.6"
Retained weight: 111.0 gr
Max expansion: 0.793"
Min expansion: 0.603"



Ulyanovsk 8M3 "effect"
(note: clear gel does not produce penetration figures that correlate with 10% gelatin or tissue at rifle velocities)



Barnaul 125 gr JSP


7.62x39mm Barnaul 125 gr jacketed soft point fired from 16" barreled WASR-10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB calibration: 588.7 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 2,523 fps
Penetration: 13.6"
Retained weight: 111.0 gr
Max expansion: 0.793"
Min expansion: 0.603"



https://youtu.be/T-Y4ixQfWkI

Impact velocity: ~2,390 fps
Neck: ~3"



https://youtu.be/9XO9V_TmOnI

Impact velocity: 2,386 fps
Penetration: > 16"
Neck: ~4"


TulAmmo 124 gr 8M3

2,396 fps
2,448 fps
2,479 fps
2,448 fps
2,439 fps

Avg: 2,442 fps


The largest fragment measured 0.686" x 0.352" x 0.167" and penetrated to 14.7"
The fragments seen in the photo below weighed, from left to right: 55.9gr 13.5gr 25.5gr 6.1gr 1.3gr 6.8gr


Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File




https://youtu.be/0ENhmMKuaVU



The long awaited short barrel 8m3 gel test!



Avg velocity: 2,170 fps
Std deviation: 28 fps
No fragmentation
Yaw at around 3" - 4"
Link Posted: 5/25/2015 12:44:00 AM EDT
Interesting, thanks for the post.
Link Posted: 5/25/2015 1:26:25 AM EDT
I was expecting the gel to just blow up because 7.62x39 is so powerful! Anyways, how does it compare to the 30-30?
Link Posted: 5/25/2015 9:23:54 AM EDT
I haven't tested .30-30 but they're in the same neighborhood for bullet weight and velocity so similarly constructed bullets ought to produce similar results.
Link Posted: 5/28/2015 5:15:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2015 12:29:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2015 10:56:22 AM EDT
Cool. Thank you, sir. I'll be adding Tula 123 gr soft point in a couple weeks when I test again.
Link Posted: 6/18/2015 11:38:38 AM EDT
Added Tula 124 gr soft point.
Link Posted: 6/19/2015 8:44:04 PM EDT
I'd be interested to see if you do more testing on the PDX1 round.
Link Posted: 6/19/2015 8:56:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2015 12:43:55 AM EDT
It's also worth noting again that my test is not statistically relevant or conducted in controlled conditions. I make every effort to maintain accuracy but my tests should only be taken as a general picture of what is possible with the rounds, not a specific prediction of what will happen.


Mecha_Loopy,

What testing would you like to see?
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 10:47:45 PM EDT
OMG @ the Tula 124 SP . I'm going to have to pickup a couple cases of that.
Link Posted: 8/1/2015 9:42:49 AM EDT
problem with the steel jacketed soft points is you can and will get different results, run the test 10 times with 10 different lots of bullets and you will get 5 different results. there is no consistency from these rounds. My guess is the fact that this tula was really fast caused the bullet to expand well. The next lot might be 2400 fps instead of 2500+ and wont expand much if at all.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 6:22:00 PM EDT
That's absolutely correct, especially in regard to the inconsistency of Russian ammo. I'm fairly confident that this would still expand at lower velocity, though. It didn't already to be anywhere near the edge of its ability to expand and the 154 gr didn't have any trouble. Besides, soft point designs are really pretty simple and reliable. Something that even the Russians ought to be able to manage.
Link Posted: 8/3/2015 2:55:40 PM EDT
That's absolutely correct, especially in regard to the inconsistency of Russian ammo. I'm fairly confident that this would still expand at lower velocity, though. It didn't already to be anywhere near the edge of its ability to expand and the 154 gr didn't have any trouble. Besides, soft point designs are really pretty simple and reliable. Something that even the Russians ought to be able to manage]

Its not the soft point(lead) thats the problem its the bimetal jacket. The steel jacket is stronger than copper so it resist deforming. I have seen many test where the soft points don't open up and go straight through gel like a fmj. One thing I have noticed is the sellor and belloit ammo seems to expand reliably and its also a bimetal(steel) jacketed bullet, my guess is either SB is using a jacket that has been weakened or its just that their soft point ammo is consistently in the 2400+ fps range.
Link Posted: 8/3/2015 3:18:44 PM EDT
The 124 and 154 grain flavors of Tula soft point that I tested appeared to have jackets with internal pre-fail scores like the hollow point ammo from the same vendor but in this case, the scoring appears to actually work. the S&B that I tested had a non magnetic jacket. For what it's worth, I think the S&B is the best ammo for the money. It uses a proper, 0.311" projectile, boxer primed brass case, and copper jacketed soft point. It produced excellent terminal effect and *should* produce good accuracy out of most rifles. The penetration was a bit on the high side for home defense, though. If my primary home defense, SHTF rifle was chambered in 7.62x39mm, I would zero for the S&B load and note the POI shift, if any for Fusion, then load the mag in the rifle and maybe one spare with Fusion while loading the rest of my SHTF mags with S&B. If I had a lot more money, I'd just buy the Fusion and be done with it.


Link Posted: 8/3/2015 8:04:39 PM EDT
Midways says the Sellier and Bellot ammo is bi metal
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/850605/sellier-and-bellot-ammunition-762x39mm-123-grain-bi-metal-semi-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding

I would like to see some test from the prvi anyone know if anyone has tested the prvi psp
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/921973/prvi-partizan-ammunition-762x39mm-123-grain-pointed-soft-point-boat-tail-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Midway claims a boattail and 2461 fps. Other places have advertised it as 2360 and no boattail.
Link Posted: 8/3/2015 9:14:48 PM EDT
You know, I could be mistaken. I can't find any mention of whether it was magnetic in my notes. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly. Wouldn't be the first time. I'll see if I can dig it up and take a magnet to it.
Link Posted: 8/3/2015 9:40:46 PM EDT

You know, I could be mistaken. I can't find any mention of whether it was magnetic in my notes. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly. Wouldn't be the first time. I'll see if I can dig it up and take a magnet to it.

Or Midway could be incorrect it wouldn't be the first time! But I do believe I read somewhere else that it was magnetic, but every test I have seen has been similar to yours? If you get the chance could you test the Prvi psp. Its about the cheapest of the brass cased rounds that would be suitable for hunting.
Link Posted: 8/4/2015 12:40:38 AM EDT
If I see any locally I'll pick some up.
Link Posted: 8/6/2015 6:34:32 AM EDT
Id love to see some golden tiger testing.

I know videos are out there but Id like to see it compared with your methods to the other loadings in the op.
Link Posted: 8/6/2015 12:06:07 PM EDT
I might. I've got a LOT of stuff I want to test and I have to buy a new batch of gelatin.
Link Posted: 8/14/2015 10:03:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2015 10:12:23 AM EDT by Eth01]
Any review for an ammo that came out from a short barrel? Short as 7"....
I stock on S&B SP but wonder what would be a max range for the bullet to expand. Same question for the Hornady SST

Not quite sure that I can consider same results as a 10" barrel. I know 7" is really short but would like to find a SP that would be reliable for at least 100 yards.
any experience?
Link Posted: 8/15/2015 12:30:10 AM EDT
Send me the gun and I'll test all the ammo you want from it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2015 8:33:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2015 8:33:31 AM EDT by Eth01]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Send me the gun and I'll test all the ammo you want from it.
View Quote


What about I show up in AZ with my new upper and we have some fun

Seriously, can't imagine all the time you put in these test just for preparation, molding the gel and setup. Guess few hours for only a 30sec video.
this is a great info for all and many thanks for the personal time for science!
Link Posted: 8/16/2015 10:24:38 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Eth01:


What about I show up in AZ with my new upper and we have some fun

Seriously, can't imagine all the time you put in these test just for preparation, molding the gel and setup. Guess few hours for only a 30sec video.
this is a great info for all and many thanks for the personal time for science!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Eth01:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Send me the gun and I'll test all the ammo you want from it.


What about I show up in AZ with my new upper and we have some fun

Seriously, can't imagine all the time you put in these test just for preparation, molding the gel and setup. Guess few hours for only a 30sec video.
this is a great info for all and many thanks for the personal time for science!


To be perfectly honest, I'd love to shoot with any Arfcommer. If you ever plan to be in AZ, hit me up.


Thank you for understanding how much work goes into these. Counting the preparation of the gelatin, driving, setting up, tearing down, collecting data and photos, and editing the video, I think I put about 8 hours into each of these videos. That is mitigated to some extent by conducting more than one test per outing.
Link Posted: 9/7/2015 3:27:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2015 3:29:51 AM EDT by MeatAxe556]
Interesting...good work!

A few rounds that I would be interested in seeing in these test are FMJs:

1. The Yugo M67 round which is purported to be a good manstopper (tumbles), and

2. Golden Tiger bi-metal FMJ, which has the big air space under the jacket tip, that is purported to be a similar bullet to M67 (though not necessarily so) and see if it tumbles.

3. American 7.62x39 copper jacketed FMJs (Win, Fed, etc.), to see if they have thin enough jackets to be capable of fragmenting (like a 5.56 M193 would).

Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 7:05:34 PM EDT
Good ideas. I've wanted to compare various military FMJ fit quite some time. M67 would definitely be on that list. Gel testing FMJ can bed somewhat of a pain because of its tendency to yaw and exit the side of the block.
Link Posted: 9/13/2015 8:42:10 PM EDT
Maybe shoot at 50-100 yards, see what happens
Link Posted: 9/13/2015 9:59:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2015 10:07:07 PM EDT by MeatAxe556]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Good ideas. I've wanted to compare various military FMJ fit quite some time. M67 would definitely be on that list. Gel testing FMJ can bed somewhat of a pain because of its tendency to yaw and exit the side of the block.
View Quote



Actually, I see where Mr. Gunsngear did a ballistics gel test with Golden Tiger FMJ, which started to tumble @ 4" but did not fragment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gknVTUd7tY

A test of Yugo M67 would be interesting, especially with its reputation of tumbling going back to Dr. Fackler's tests (but only with drawings, not actual video).

Also, it would be interesting to see if any US 7.62x39 copper jacketed FMJ would fragment like 5.56 M193.
Link Posted: 9/13/2015 10:03:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Maybe shoot at 50-100 yards, see what happens
View Quote


Yup. It would be good to see what these do at "combat ranges." Maybe you can use a scope and put the rifle on a rest (like the lead sled) to make sure you hit dead on at that distance.

My decidedly unscientific ballistics tests into pork shoulders at 25 to 50 yards sometime have spectacular results, especially with US ballistic tips and Russian SPs (and some HPs).
Link Posted: 11/20/2015 4:34:08 PM EDT
Barnaul 125gr JSP added.
Link Posted: 11/23/2015 8:41:42 PM EDT
I wonder how the 8M3 Effect round would compare to some of these loads. I've heard a lot about the round, but would like to see how it fares in similar tests with other rounds.
Link Posted: 11/23/2015 9:35:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Zix:
I wonder how the 8M3 Effect round would compare to some of these loads. I've heard a lot about the round, but would like to see how it fares in similar tests with other rounds.
View Quote


8M3 ballistic gel test
Link Posted: 11/24/2015 11:26:50 AM EDT
I added that video to the OP. So far as I can tell, the 8M3 is a fantastic bullet but it's hard to find. Most other hollow point 7.62x39mm acts like FMJ. My personal opinion is that if you want good terminal effect at low cost, go with a soft point. I have yet to see one that doesn't expand.
Link Posted: 5/8/2016 1:25:27 PM EDT
Updated.

Should I add armor test results for 7.62x39mm to this thread? What about .300 BLK gel results? While they aren't the same bullets, the velocity is similar enough that it might give a general indication of the performance potential for 7.62x39mm with a similar bullet and velocity. Or is it best to preserve the purity of our fluids?
Link Posted: 5/10/2016 6:30:07 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Updated.

Should I add armor test results for 7.62x39mm to this thread? What about .300 BLK gel results? While they aren't the same bullets, the velocity is similar enough that it might give a general indication of the performance potential for 7.62x39mm with a similar bullet and velocity. Or is it best to preserve the purity of our fluids?
View Quote



I think .300BLK results might muddy the waters, since there are so many loadings for it that aren't available in x39 (and no AKs chambered for it).
Link Posted: 5/10/2016 7:21:20 PM EDT
I tend to agree. Thank you.
Link Posted: 5/10/2016 9:57:55 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Notyouratty:



I think .300BLK results might muddy the waters, since there are so many loadings for it that aren't available in x39 (and no AKs chambered for it).
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Notyouratty:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Updated.

Should I add armor test results for 7.62x39mm to this thread? What about .300 BLK gel results? While they aren't the same bullets, the velocity is similar enough that it might give a general indication of the performance potential for 7.62x39mm with a similar bullet and velocity. Or is it best to preserve the purity of our fluids?



I think .300BLK results might muddy the waters, since there are so many loadings for it that aren't available in x39 (and no AKs chambered for it).


+1

How about post barrier penetration gel performance?
Link Posted: 5/11/2016 11:31:37 AM EDT
I did the Fusion windshield test and I may do some more from time to time, but I don't like how it contaminated my gel with glass dust.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 9:40:38 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I did the Fusion windshield test and I may do some more from time to time, but I don't like how it contaminated my gel with glass dust.
View Quote


I was going to say drywall to simulate indoor use, but that'd be really messy in your gel.
Link Posted: 6/6/2016 1:13:24 PM EDT
Updated 6/6/16.
Link Posted: 8/4/2016 4:51:21 AM EDT
Great shout out to you from Berlin.
Thank you for your awesome testing.

Cheers,

Gunner
Link Posted: 8/5/2016 2:40:17 PM EDT
Thank you for the encouragement.
Link Posted: 8/6/2016 7:36:43 AM EDT
Do you have a .30-06 test? As a recent convert to the M1 religion Id love to see what M2 ball can do vs some of it's modern replacements.
Link Posted: 8/6/2016 10:33:59 AM EDT
I don't even own a .30-06 rifle. I do plan to do some military caliber tests soon, though.
Link Posted: 8/7/2016 1:34:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2016 10:22:41 AM EDT
Thank you. Remember, if you know of any other credible tests that include good data, I'd like to post them to the OP.
Link Posted: 8/8/2016 11:04:55 AM EDT
I'm planning on using 7.62x39 this fall for hunting out of a tree stand. I was looking at the 123 gr SST but I'm also looking at the Priv 123gr RN. Anyone have any data on that round.

Link Posted: 8/10/2016 3:40:28 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Maybe shoot at 50-100 yards, see what happens
View Quote


This is exactly what I was thinking as I scrolled through this thread. But hitting a block of gelatin at 100 yds. or even 50 yds. might be a challenge with an AK. The way I do this with my revolvers is load the cartridges DOWN so that muzzle velocity represents impact velocity at the desired range of testing.

You're doing great work, keep it up!
Link Posted: 8/11/2016 10:44:27 AM EDT
Hitting a 6" x 8" rectangle at 100 yards shouldn't be too difficult. Hitting the roughly 1" - 2" spot that the bullet needs to strike that's a little more difficult. What's more complicated is that it isn't enough to hit that point in two dimensions. The path of the bullet has to line up with the axis of the block in three dimensions. Then there is the fact that gelatin has to be kept at or very near 39°F to provide an accurate result. I'm already rushing to get tests done and run cameras at close range. That's why you often hear heavy breathing from me, not just because I'm a disgusting fatbody. Running 100 yards down range (which means down and up a wash at my range) with a 50 lb block of gelatin and then getting everything perfect for the ONE chance I'll have to get it right is not appealing. I probably will do longer range tests some day, just because so many people ask for that, but it's not nearly as simple as folks seem to think. I have done a reduced load to simulate long range with .223 Rem but I don't have any 7.62x39mm dies. A friend does, though. I may talk him into doing some reduced loads. Same guy has an AK pistol that I've used in a few tests to give an approximation of ~100 yard results with a carbine.
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