Here is a very poor quality video of an AK-74 being thrown off the top of a building. Next they run over it with a car. Still work.

Right click and save as:
club.guns.ru/images/video/ak-74m.mpg

Quoted: I can hit a running racoon with open sights while hanging out of the passenger window of a moving truck in a field chasing him. yeeeeeeHAAAAAW! you and me would get along just fine! i'll drive...you shoot! the spotlight's under the seat!

Like we didnt already know that.  

WOW,  Thats a cool video.  Wish it was bigger, but that thing can take some beating.  

Quoted: WOW,  Thats a cool video.  Wish it was bigger, but that thing can take some beating.

CampyBob posted that during a previous AR15 vs AK funfest.  For some reason the link to that thread no worky, but I still have the saved post.

Quoted: Quoted: What is the effective range of both rifles? because ive read 360meters for the M4 and 500 meters for the AK74, are these true numbers? The Ak-74, about 800 meters.  Practical, about 300-400. The M-4, About 95-110 meters depending on ammo.  You can hit farther out, but you might as well be using a .22 Long rifle.

Absurd...

AR effective range is 300m point, 500 area...

There's no way an AK is effective to 800....  Too innacurate....

At 300+ yards, fragmentation or 'round effectiveness' doesn't mean jack -> all that matters is putting holes in the target....

The M4 Carbine has a maximum effective point target range of 500 meters and an area target of 600 meters.


Describe the ranges for the M4 Rifle.
• Max Effective Range for a Point Target - 500 meters
• Max Effective Range for an Area Target - 600 meters

the AK-74 has an effective range is 500 meters

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the effective range of both rifles? because ive read 360meters for the M4 and 500 meters for the AK74, are these true numbers? The Ak-74, about 800 meters.  Practical, about 300-400. The M-4, About 95-110 meters depending on ammo.  You can hit farther out, but you might as well be using a .22 Long rifle. Absurd... AR effective range is 300m point, 500 area... There's no way an AK is effective to 800....  Too innacurate.... At 300+ yards, fragmentation or 'round effectiveness' doesn't mean jack -> all that matters is putting holes in the target....

I've been playing this game at the range too. I am limited to a 300 yard range right now so I have no data at longer ranges. You can draw your own conclusions about effective hit range, point range, area range, etc,. Here is what I could do at 300 yards:

Colt 20" military spec barrel, 4x ACOG, 10 rds of Q3131A, 6 1/2" group:




SEAK AK-74, 3.5x PO3, Barnaul FMJ, 14 1/4" group:




SEAK AK-74, 3.5x PO3, Barnaul FMJ, messing around:

You wouldnt by chance have a M4 style AR15, since that is from a 20" barrel. im more interested in a M4's accuracy, but thats good info on the 74's accuracy

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the effective range of both rifles? because ive read 360meters for the M4 and 500 meters for the AK74, are these true numbers? The Ak-74, about 800 meters.  Practical, about 300-400. The M-4, About 95-110 meters depending on ammo.  You can hit farther out, but you might as well be using a .22 Long rifle. Absurd... AR effective range is 300m point, 500 area... There's no way an AK is effective to 800....  Too innacurate.... At 300+ yards, fragmentation or 'round effectiveness' doesn't mean jack -> all that matters is putting holes in the target....

I think what he's saying is past 110 meters and ammo doesnt fragment out of an M4 whereas 5.45 will do its tumble rumble out to 800 meters.  

Its not whether or not you can hit a target, its what happens when you do hit it.

Quoted: You wouldnt by chance have a M4 style AR15, since that is from a 20" barrel. im more interested in a M4's accuracy, but thats good info on the 74's accuracy

I have a 16" Colt Lightweight Sporter that is M4 like. I have never put the ACOG on it. You just gave me an idea

Is that with or without optics? Either way...your a way better shot than I am.

Quoted: You wouldnt by chance have a M4 style AR15, since that is from a 20" barrel. im more interested in a M4's accuracy, but thats good info on the 74's accuracy

Shouldn't make much difference.  Barrel length doesn't really affect accuracy.  The truth of the matter is a 14.5" barrel will have less harmonic vibration in it because it is shorter and stiffer.  The 20" barrel only increases the effective range of the ammunition.

Quoted: Is that with or without optics? Either way...your a way better shot than I am.

AR A2 with 4x scope and no cheek weld.

AK with 3.5x scope, limited cheek weld, and far from steady. The SEAK is too small and light weight for me to get rock steady with it, at least so far.

If you only knew how many hours and targets it took.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the effective range of both rifles? because ive read 360meters for the M4 and 500 meters for the AK74, are these true numbers? The Ak-74, about 800 meters.  Practical, about 300-400. The M-4, About 95-110 meters depending on ammo.  You can hit farther out, but you might as well be using a .22 Long rifle. Absurd... AR effective range is 300m point, 500 area... There's no way an AK is effective to 800....  Too innacurate.... At 300+ yards, fragmentation or 'round effectiveness' doesn't mean jack -> all that matters is putting holes in the target.... I've been playing this game at the range too. I am limited to a 300 yard range right now so I have no data at longer ranges. You can draw your own conclusions about effective hit range, point range, area range, etc,. Here is what I could do at 300 yards: Colt 20" military spec barrel, 4x ACOG, 10 rds of Q3131A, 6 1/2" group: photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DispThumb.asp?sAccountUnq=37559&iGalleryUnq=1653&sThumbnail=acog300.JPG SEAK AK-74, 3.5x PO3, Barnaul FMJ, 14 1/4" group: photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DispThumb.asp?sAccountUnq=37559&iGalleryUnq=1653&sThumbnail=seak300b1425.JPG SEAK AK-74, 3.5x PO3, Barnaul FMJ, messing around: photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DispThumb.asp?sAccountUnq=37559&iGalleryUnq=1653&sThumbnail=seak300ma.JPG

I'm willing to bet if you could get a hold of Russian ammo that was of the same quality as Q3131A you would have a group considerably smaller than what the Barnaul can do.  Try this same experiment with just your AR using Q3131A on one target and then switch to Wolf 55gr FMJ for the other.  You will see a huge difference in accuracy at 300 yards.  I'm thinking it will more closely resemble your SEAK's target.

Here is a link to our new 600 yard range where the National Match ARs rule the roost in service rifle class, some people compete with M14s and M1s but I see fewer and fewer each year.

600 Yard Range

If barrel length doesnt aid in accuracy, why are the varminter type ar15's with 24 inch barrels?

Quoted: If barrel length doesnt aid in accuracy, why are the varminter type ar15's with 24 inch barrels?

A longer barrel, to a certain extent, will increase the velocity of the .223 round therefore increasing its effective range.  The varminter barrel is also a heavy profile barrel so this will decrease its harmonic vibrations somewhat.  The 14.5" and 20" gov't barrels are both lightweight profile barrels.  The 20" will ultimately have more barrel whip than the 14.5" because it is longer and heavier on the end.  Please realize that I'm not talking about a night and day difference in accuracy.  It will be so little that you probably won't even notice it.

Robert 2011

Jeff Cooper is a true American hero and a contemporary of mine.  His contribution, particularly with regard to art of the combat handgun, is immeasurable.  Gunsite has helped innumerable civilians with the proper and effective use of the handgun rifle, and even shotgun.  Jeff's contribution to the Armed Forces continue even to this day by the students who return to their military units.

It serves no productive purpose for either one of us to "snipe" at each other.   You have a right to your opinion, as does Jeff, and likewise for me.  

Warfare, and even the use of the rifle in combat have changed since the '40s and mid '50s when Jeff was on active duty and in "harms way".  My combat experience spans Vietnam, Centam, DESERT STORM and finally  counter-drug operations in South America.  I commanded infanty platoons, companys, and and a battalion.

As for guidance not to refer to the M16A2 as a "Battle Rifle", the USMC, US Army, and my own experience supports that designation whether you or even Jeff agree.

You can not determine which is a better rifle in combat by shooting groups on paper or by attending a 3-day course.  Only a systematic compilation of actual experience under determined-combat will do that.  

I'm now going to sit back and enjoy this list for a while.  Before I close, I'll state:

-  No carbine / rifle is tougher and/or more reliable that the AK47/74 series.

-  AKs will not out-shoot ARs/M16s, especially as originally configured.

-  The 7.62x39mm is a better round for engagements 300 yd and under than the 5.56mm. (I have no personal experience with the 5.45mm round).

-  The 55grn bullet fired through a 1/12 barrel will fragment in tissue out to 300m as a general rule.  It will tumble, certainly out to 500m.  Unfortunately, the 62grn SS109 will not tumble.  In order to penetrate kevlar, it was designed to remain stable.  Consequently, it appears to be less effective in stopping adversaries because of the pencil-size hole it drills into torsos if it doesn't strike bone.   As a Nation, we must do better for those we send to engage adversaries with a rifle.

"Semper Fi"