User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 7:09:03 AM EDT
[#1]
my question is why does Walmart have to have a sign to remind Employees and its Vendors they are not allowed to carry ? Where they not informed during orientation ????
as is more than obvious they dropped the ball on this one |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 8:37:40 AM EDT
[#2]
I disagree on your interpretation of the signage and I'll tell you why:
First off, it's not a horizontal 4x6" sign or or the same horizontal dimensions. Secondly, it clearly expresses to whom it is directed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 9:03:48 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Secondly, it clearly expresses to whom it is directed. Despite the public misconception of "pressing charges", private citizens or corporations do not have the power to decide whether criminal arrests or prosecutions happen. The sign is not an exact reproduction of the legally mandated sign. However, it is very close and also includes the reference to the Illinois statute, clearly indicating their intent in posting the sign. The statute and regulations at this point are untested in court, and it would not be unreasonable for a LE officer to interpret a sign clearly modeled after the legal sign and carrying the legal reference to IL criminal statutes as a legal sign. And again, private citizens cannot pick and choose who they want criminal law to apply to. Their additional text is almost meaningless. They can trespass anyone they want, and could suitably post a notice of their intent to do so for employees. Their invocation of criminal law though takes things out of their hands. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 11:21:14 AM EDT
[#4]
IL State Police FAQ
https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/ISPFaq.aspx Q) What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign? A) This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 11:26:01 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Over at IL huge discussion on 'No Carry' signs at walmart link to sign http://allguntraining.com/images/walmart.pdf My response followes pick corporate experiance https://corporate.walmart.com/contact-us/store-corporate-feedback Options are Store Experience -Overall shopping experience -Customer service -Store cleanliness or Company Feedback and Questions -Store openings -Sustainability -Walmart policies -Identity theft -Fraud |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 11:46:56 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Over at IL huge discussion on 'No Carry' signs at walmart link to sign http://allguntraining.com/images/walmart.pdf My response followes pick corporate experiance https://corporate.walmart.com/contact-us/store-corporate-feedback Your store on North Allen road has signs prohibiting concealed carry by lawful permit holders at all entrances. They attempted to modify the signs to only cover Walmart employees and vendors. I do not believe the State of IL allows Walmart to modify the law in this way and if I was legally carrying in Walmart and a customer noticed and called police I believe I would be arrested for violating IL law. Sadly I will not shop Walmart until the signs are removed In addition as an Illinois State Concealed Carry instructor I will advise my students of the risk of arrest should they choose to shop Walmart while legally carrying. Is that the Walmart in Peoria on Allen road? They should be arming them instead. What insanity. COP is pretty much pro 2A so that is odd. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 12:06:09 PM EDT
[#7]
the intent is to encourage as many as can be convinced to think they're in compliance when they in fact are not. Walmart's awful policies notwithstanding, they want their stores to be shooting galleries like the Aurora Theater and the ISP want Ilinois to remain a shooting gallery
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 3:05:16 PM EDT
[#8]
I will not be spending any more money at the Walmart on North Allen Road.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 4:06:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Lake Zurich store is now posted.
I'm emailing corporate now and will stop in tomorrow to talk to the manager. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 4:50:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lake Zurich store is now posted. https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ReBRI9_dMBA/UtHoJOViO9I/AAAAAAAAGzQ/cjsVhO4SwX4/s640/20140111_175830%25280%2529.jpg I'm emailing corporate now and will stop in tomorrow to talk to the manager. I think that just means people that work there, can't carry Berettas. No biggy, it's kinda hard to conceal an M9/92, when bending, reaching, and crouching anyways. Seriously though, we went through alot of that when we got carry too. I can only think of one place I would go to if it wasn't posted, and that's a natural food store I used to get sushi at. MAYBE like here, the more everyday folks talk to the merchants, and the more the people figure out....... .......that carry doesn't turn your state into the wild west.....the less signs you'll see. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 5:46:48 PM EDT
[#11]
I think by posting the sign they are inadvertantly banning carry under the FCCA to all licensees.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 5:50:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think by posting the sign they are inadvertantly banning carry under the FCCA to all licensees. Yes, that's what the ISP's website says. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/11/2014 6:15:07 PM EDT
[#13]
I guess they are allowed to post a misleading sign...I saw it when I dropped my wife off to get groceries...When I saw it, I called her and told her to forget it and come back out. She confronted the night manager (Mt. Vernon) and said it didn't make sense as those folks already know company policy.
I would equate this signage the same as a restaurant posing a sign on the front door stating "Employees must wash hands before leaving restroom". Don't know if this is worth an all out campaign but nothing wrong with shoppers letting them hear from them! |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/12/2014 11:40:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Up in New Lenox, too. But if I'm reading this right, they're TRYING to allow CCW in their stores, and just confused by how, right? I'm actually OK with them doing this-it seems like they're on our side. Larry |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/12/2014 12:29:10 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm actually OK with them doing this-it seems like they're on our side. I'm definitely not ok with this...just not sure how much of a fight we want to launch. It is an absurd approach that in my opinion is designed to confuse the non-fine print reading public. Their associates have already been made aware of the policy...and their vendors could be given notice by a sign on the service desk or notice when paying vendors...And considering the 1000's of "allowed" folks...is it really worth it to post a confusing sign that only applies to the relatively few vendors that walk through their door? |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/12/2014 1:04:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IL State Police FAQ https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/ISPFaq.aspx Q) What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign? A) This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies. Need to print a copy of that page and hand it to the store manager so they realize the error of their ways and suggest that they issue addendums to their vendor contracts or even cheaper and faster post a non-approved (Pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/65) sign instead. Just adding a chunk of tape or white-out to the statutory reference would solve the issue then and there. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/12/2014 6:22:27 PM EDT
[#17]
I imagine their intent is to discourage CC in the store while covering their asses by posting a sign like that when seen at a distance looks like a no gun sign. Know what I mean? From a distance they are pleasing the antigun crowd, but up close they are pleasing the gun crowd. Pretty sneaky...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/12/2014 7:16:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm definitely not ok with this...just not sure how much of a fight we want to launch. It is an absurd approach that in my opinion is designed to confuse the non-fine print reading public. Their associates have already been made aware of the policy...and their vendors could be given notice by a sign on the service desk or notice when paying vendors...And considering the 1000's of "allowed" folks...is it really worth it to post a confusing sign that only applies to the relatively few vendors that walk through their door? Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm actually OK with them doing this-it seems like they're on our side. I'm definitely not ok with this...just not sure how much of a fight we want to launch. It is an absurd approach that in my opinion is designed to confuse the non-fine print reading public. Their associates have already been made aware of the policy...and their vendors could be given notice by a sign on the service desk or notice when paying vendors...And considering the 1000's of "allowed" folks...is it really worth it to post a confusing sign that only applies to the relatively few vendors that walk through their door? I saw a sign in East Peoria, and was going to ask here--clearly someone beat me to it. For the time being, since I am waiting on my permit anyway, I think my response is going to be a letter to corporate, letting them know that their posting prohibits me from carrying in their store in spite of their intentions. I am willing to wait until I have a permit to let them fix it, but after that it will cost them money. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 2:28:08 AM EDT
[#19]
I noticed one at the Washington Walmart as well.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 3:37:34 AM EDT
[#20]
I wonder if Walmart is hoping by having a sorta compliant sign they can have police deal withh employees or vendors found carrying ?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 6:51:02 AM EDT
[#21]
Why would they want LEO to enforce their employee policies? Short of an employee stealing, LEO should not be used to enforce their rules.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 7:02:14 AM EDT
[#22]
I think some others nailed it, I think they are saying no employees or vendors, but using the Gun Ban sign as a way to make everyone not carry, allowing the anti-gun folks to raise holly hell when they see one, damage already done by the time it's sorted out.
Typical left slant work to tarnish people with lies. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 7:59:17 AM EDT
[#23]
I think someone at WM over-reacted bigtime.
While they try to specify who they are talking about, I've never seen a sign like this in stores in other states. So why IL? Because whoever is in charge over-reacted. Take the signs down, Wal-mart. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 8:31:27 AM EDT
[#24]
My take, as an IL CCW instructor familar with the FCCA law and JCAR rules, is that is a legal sign. As such Walmarts with it are prohibitted areas.
That is not their intent, but it is the result. Let's work to get the signs removed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 8:40:41 AM EDT
[#25]
another message from Walmart after I sent the the FAQ from the ISP
Dear Phil, I did some research last night, and I fully understand your concern. I am contacting our legal department today. Please understand that the Management in the Wal-Mart Stores, and Sam's Clubs are following the Company direction at this time. I will follow through until this is resolved. We appreciate your feedback, and I will be in contact with you, as soon as I hear a reply. It may take a couple of days for research. Sincerely, Margaret Moon Sam's Club Peoria 1-309-691-4545 |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 8:53:26 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would they want LEO to enforce their employee policies? Short of an employee stealing, LEO should not be used to enforce their rules. before my second cuppa coffee this AM it occurred to me if Walmart had an employee carrying they might wish an LEO to remove him from the property as opposed to confronting him 'administratively' I might could be full of beans |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 1:14:28 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IL State Police FAQ https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/ISPFaq.aspx Q) What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign? A) This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
IL State Police FAQ https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/ISPFaq.aspx Q) What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign? A) This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies. Also from the same site: Where can business owners or property owners obtain information about required signage?
The 4 inch by 6 inch sign is available for download at http://www.isp.state.il.us/firearms/ccw. The Illinois State Police has adopted administrative rules permitting the design and posting of a larger sign (of any size) if the property owner feels the entrance to their building, premises or real property requires one. The 4 inch by 6 inch sign must be visible somewhere on the larger sign. The administrative rules proposed by the Illinois State Police also permit the larger sign to include additional language. The administrative rules have been filed with the Illinois Secretary of State pursuant to the Illinois Administrative Procedure Act and will be published in the January 17th Illinois Register. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 4:09:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
before my second cuppa coffee this AM it occurred to me if Walmart had an employee carrying they might wish an LEO to remove him from the property as opposed to confronting him 'administratively' I might could be full of beans Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why would they want LEO to enforce their employee policies? Short of an employee stealing, LEO should not be used to enforce their rules. before my second cuppa coffee this AM it occurred to me if Walmart had an employee carrying they might wish an LEO to remove him from the property as opposed to confronting him 'administratively' I might could be full of beans They could call the police to trespass anyone at their leisure. They don't need a general no-carry prohibition. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 5:02:21 PM EDT
[#29]
Walmart in Carbondale, Glen Carbon and Collinsville have all posted these signs.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 5:44:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
another message from Walmart after I sent the the FAQ from the ISP Quote HistoryQuoted:
another message from Walmart after I sent the the FAQ from the ISP Dear Phil, I did some research last night, and I fully understand your concern. I am contacting our legal department today. Please understand that the Management in the Wal-Mart Stores, and Sam's Clubs are following the Company direction at this time. I will follow through until this is resolved. We appreciate your feedback, and I will be in contact with you, as soon as I hear a reply. It may take a couple of days for research. Sincerely, Margaret Moon Sam's Club Peoria 1-309-691-4545 I sent that as well, but have not heard anything back yet. Good to know that you got a response. I think I will wait until their legal response before I am tempted to cross post in GD to nuke them from orbit. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2014 5:53:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I imagine their intent is to discourage CC in the store while covering their asses by posting a sign like that when seen at a distance looks like a no gun sign. Know what I mean? From a distance they are pleasing the antigun crowd, but up close they are pleasing the gun crowd. Pretty sneaky... ding |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2014 5:09:58 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ding Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I imagine their intent is to discourage CC in the store while covering their asses by posting a sign like that when seen at a distance looks like a no gun sign. Know what I mean? From a distance they are pleasing the antigun crowd, but up close they are pleasing the gun crowd. Pretty sneaky... ding I think it's a combination of a rocket surgeon junior lawyer in Arkansas ginning up the policy / sign and the brain engineers in the IL legislature that threw together this turd of a law at the last minute |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2014 5:13:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They could call the police to trespass anyone at their leisure. They don't need a general no-carry prohibition. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why would they want LEO to enforce their employee policies? Short of an employee stealing, LEO should not be used to enforce their rules. before my second cuppa coffee this AM it occurred to me if Walmart had an employee carrying they might wish an LEO to remove him from the property as opposed to confronting him 'administratively' I might could be full of beans They could call the police to trespass anyone at their leisure. They don't need a general no-carry prohibition. yes but if they call 911 and say 'hey we want to fire this guy for violating employment policy and carrying can you come take him away? No we haven't confronted him yet.' I'm guessing 911 would say 'mmmmmm k well if we get an officer free' or more likely 'Sorry not our problem' On the other hand if they say , 'We have an employee in violation of FCCA come get him ..." Alternatively I was on full retard when I thought of that. Good news is Walmart seems to be feeling the heat and maybe seeing the light |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2014 5:53:58 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ding Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I imagine their intent is to discourage CC in the store while covering their asses by posting a sign like that when seen at a distance looks like a no gun sign. Know what I mean? From a distance they are pleasing the antigun crowd, but up close they are pleasing the gun crowd. Pretty sneaky... ding I have to disagree on this. I think their intent was exactly what they stated on the sign. It applies to employees and vendors only. They've had a longstanding policy of allowing CCW everywhere it's legal. I'm not sure why people think Illinois is the exception to that rule in spite of their clueless use of the sign. If paranoia were fuel we could run the entire state for a day on just this sign issue. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2014 6:30:44 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have to disagree on this. I think their intent was exactly what they stated on the sign. It applies to employees and vendors only. They've had a longstanding policy of allowing CCW everywhere it's legal. I'm not sure why people think Illinois is the exception to that rule in spite of their clueless use of the sign. If paranoia were fuel we could run the entire state for a day on just this sign issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I imagine their intent is to discourage CC in the store while covering their asses by posting a sign like that when seen at a distance looks like a no gun sign. Know what I mean? From a distance they are pleasing the antigun crowd, but up close they are pleasing the gun crowd. Pretty sneaky... ding I have to disagree on this. I think their intent was exactly what they stated on the sign. It applies to employees and vendors only. They've had a longstanding policy of allowing CCW everywhere it's legal. I'm not sure why people think Illinois is the exception to that rule in spite of their clueless use of the sign. If paranoia were fuel we could run the entire state for a day on just this sign issue. their intent doesn't matter - they posted what could be reasonably argued to be a valid no carry sign - so people reacted and it looks like it's being changed you did let warlmart know your feelings right? |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2014 8:36:09 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
their intent doesn't matter - they posted what could be reasonably argued to be a valid no carry sign - so people reacted and it looks like it's being changed you did let warlmart know your feelings right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I imagine their intent is to discourage CC in the store while covering their asses by posting a sign like that when seen at a distance looks like a no gun sign. Know what I mean? From a distance they are pleasing the antigun crowd, but up close they are pleasing the gun crowd. Pretty sneaky... ding I have to disagree on this. I think their intent was exactly what they stated on the sign. It applies to employees and vendors only. They've had a longstanding policy of allowing CCW everywhere it's legal. I'm not sure why people think Illinois is the exception to that rule in spite of their clueless use of the sign. If paranoia were fuel we could run the entire state for a day on just this sign issue. their intent doesn't matter - they posted what could be reasonably argued to be a valid no carry sign - so people reacted and it looks like it's being changed you did let warlmart know your feelings right? Yes. I was in the thread on IC. There are reasonable arguments for your point. Some of us just live with less worry I think. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2014 7:49:53 AM EDT
[#37]
I have to disagree on this. I think their intent was exactly what they stated on the sign. I have to disagree with this disagreement  ...I dropped my wife off and went to park the car...as I watched her enter the store, I saw the sign from the parking lot and called her and told her to leave and we wouldn't shop there...We checked it out with the manager who was quite unimpressed with "Corporate" for having them do it...It didn't make sense to him either.
Have we heard of these signs in other states??? Not to my knowledge.... From the ISP Web Site: What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign?
This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2014 11:37:31 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. I was in the thread on IC. There are reasonable arguments for your point. Some of us just live with less worry I think. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I imagine their intent is to discourage CC in the store while covering their asses by posting a sign like that when seen at a distance looks like a no gun sign. Know what I mean? From a distance they are pleasing the antigun crowd, but up close they are pleasing the gun crowd. Pretty sneaky... ding I have to disagree on this. I think their intent was exactly what they stated on the sign. It applies to employees and vendors only. They've had a longstanding policy of allowing CCW everywhere it's legal. I'm not sure why people think Illinois is the exception to that rule in spite of their clueless use of the sign. If paranoia were fuel we could run the entire state for a day on just this sign issue. their intent doesn't matter - they posted what could be reasonably argued to be a valid no carry sign - so people reacted and it looks like it's being changed you did let warlmart know your feelings right? Yes. I was in the thread on IC. There are reasonable arguments for your point. Some of us just live with less worry I think. I don't worry, I stir up trouble 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2014 11:50:44 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't worry, I stir up trouble
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2014 12:04:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Does Walmart post these signs in other states where. concealed carry is allowed ?
Is this just an Illinois thing ? |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2014 12:07:44 PM EDT
[#41]
One of our members on IllinoisCarry.com just stated that Walmart said they were removing the signs as per ISP.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2014 5:39:31 PM EDT
[#42]
I spoke with the manager at our local Walmart today. He said that the signs were displayed to inform employees and contract vendors they were not to bring a concealed firearm into the store. He said that it in no way was meant to tell shoppers they were not to carry a concealed firearm into the business.
The manager was approachable, friendly and willing to discuss the issue. He also said that they are doing their best to get ammunition to sell in their store, because it was a fast moving item before the panic buying started. In all fairness to Walmart, I will give them a chance to resolve the issue and clear up the confusion about the signs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/16/2014 2:35:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does Walmart post these signs in other states where. concealed carry is allowed ? Is this just an Illinois thing ? Their corporate policy has always been to allow carry by customers where it is legally allowed. That's why in spite of the confusion about the signs I think their intent was clear. They just screwed up the signage. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/17/2014 11:18:16 AM EDT
[#44]
The signs have been removed from the Walmart stores in my area.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
