A while back there was a article on the net about the Alaska State Police conducting cold weather rifle tests. I believe they were mostly .308's. Which included Valmets HK's and FAL's.
I believe the AR was in there as well.

Does anyone know where I can find this article?

I link would be +100!

Thanks

all I could find



http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-124264.html

For some reason this sounds familiar................. I'd like to know as well.

I have a magazine artical from the mid 80's detailing these tests.
I do not remember what mag it was in. It was either in a Firepower, special weapons, or SWAT.
I think it was SWAT from around when they changed there name from Survival Weapons and Tactics, to Special Weapons and Tactics. What would that be 86? or so?  Right around the name change they switched from glossy pages, and normal page count, to more of a dull print, and added more pages.
I want to say the Valment, or Galil was the winner.
AR didnt fair well.
I've been layed off awhile, and have gone through the old boxes of magazines I have piled in the storage room.

I would be interested in reading the article. I was always under the impression, and maybe it was a mistaken one, that one area the AR platform excelled in was cold weather.

The article was indeed from SWAT in the good old days but I doubt if the test had the imprimatur of any Alaskan government entity.  But who cares anyway?  The galil and valmet did come out on top.

I met an Alaska State Trooper when he was going through the National Academy. He said his patrol area was about the size of Rhode Island.

The link to the pdf doesn't work, but if  remember correctly, the only two rifles to pass the test were the Galil and Valmet where the M1 Garand,M14,M16,AR15, and FNC failed.

No, the AR does not.  My M16A2 froze up in the mountains of Dahlonega, GA this past winter.  I couldn't drop a magazine and my rifle became a bolt action.

I shot my Benelli SBEII in -35 and colder tons up here.  If you use lube that doesn't gum up(Hoppes) in the cold almost  any non-DI gun  should work just fine




DI just puts too much moisture into the action.  Some will work, but not all DI guns.  That's my actual extreme cold opinion.

What did you do?  Lube it . Or take it inside with you and let it sweat then take it into the cold again?  Run it dry or with graphite in the cold.

ARs run fine when properly prepared for cold weather conditions. The Alaska State Police should have called their National Guard units, or the Marines who train and hold exercises with Scandinavian countries.

I could freeze up any rifle in extreme cold conditions by using the wrong lube & prep.

What he said. In extreme conditions proper type and amount of lube is critical, along with leaving weapons out in the cold.

you're doing it wrong

I used to live in AK, every winter there are threads about cold weather and the AR in the HTF.

If you try and use warm weather procedures in cold weather, guess what, it doesn't work, just like any other machine. This applies to ALL guns

take a warm mag, put it in a cold gun, it will freeze there, use the worng lube and you will have FTF's or it won't work.

I would shoot down to -20 to -25 with ar's and just clp, worked just fine, but you have to know the tricks

There was a post in GD last year form a guy that lived near galena, need to look at it

The guys at Ft rich/greely seem to do just fine on the range up there with ar's and other weapons.

I am sure that I could have done much more to prep my rifle and to keep it from freezing up.   Frankly I don't remember to much of the incident.  It was in the middle of a patrol at Ranger School.  It was ~0100 or so in the morning, setting up a hasty ambush, I had not cleaned it since the morning before and probably dropped and fell with it in the snow and mud.   I am fairly confident you can get an AR to run in the extreme cold.  They still have M4s up in Alaska at Fort Wainwright where it hits -60 F.  I am sure if you use the right stuff it would work fine.

Humidity in a warm gun will condense and flash freeze when you step out into extreme cold.  An AK variant's larger clearances will help in that situation, while tight guns like AR's will freeze up.

This is quite true. But in addition the changing elements, not to mention actually shooting the gun in cold, will cause the gun to gain in moisture. Doing things military men like to do tend to increase gathering of the moisture/snow inside the gun. Tolerances are a big part of the cold resistance of a weapon. But also different design decisions have an effect on cold performance, just like the affect performance in all conditions.

If somebody could find the file, that'd be grand. All I have left is a screen capture of the summary:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Jippo01/Guns/malfunctions.gif

Not that it applies completely to this topic in regard to the above mentioned weapon types but I was on several Polar Bear hunts in extreme northern Canada in 2004 and 2005. My Model 70 in 375 Ultra mag had a problem with a frozen firing pin in the -40F temperatures. The fix was quick and easy. We submerged the bolt in a coffee can of white gas for 30 minutes of so and then let the fumes evaporate. Put the bolt back in the gun dry with no lube and it functioned flawlessly after that. We would also leave our rifles outside the cabin to avoid the condensation freezing up the dry bolt.

I uploaded a PDF of the SWAT article here:  http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=550889

During the swedish military tests in the 1980s the FNC and a modified version of the Galil (FFV 890c) were the only rifles that remained reliable in very cold weather. Weapons like the M16, SIG 550 and Steyr AUG were dropped from further tests after having failed the cold weather tests.
The FNC was eventually chosen over the Galil mostly due to the ability to use AR mags.

I'm sure the Canadians know a thing or two about cold weather, and they operated the AR system and FAL systems with success in Canada.

the FNC is a pretty phenominal cold-weather rifle. i'd get one in a heartbeat if spare parts were at-all available...

A Galil is heavy, I suppose that is less of a problem for a cop.  Not surprised an AK variant came out on top though given the shitty conditions and climate.

I performed a similar test (as close as I could) on my Galil AR and my Golani, and both stood locked in my unheated shed with a full mag in -20 weather all nite long. Both were frosted the next morning, and both funcioned 100% with both 35 round mags of Wolf 55 grain going off bumfired without a hitch. I have a feeling that any piston gun not over lubed would do about the same.

The pdf file was an interesting read. Seems like the real conclusion is that CLP is a crappy cold weather lube.
I don't have personal experience in that environment, but there has got to be better way than CLP. Like others above have said, it's
all about your cold weather prep.

It isn't that simple. M1A tested is a piston gun, isn't it?

Also most issues that ie AR15 design had were not related to direct impigment.

Dave, thanks a bunch for the file upload. Super job.

I recall reading an article in Solider of Fortune back in the '80s about the Alaskan Scouts.  This is/was a National Guard unit made up of Inuits.  According to the article, their M-16s ran fine in Artic temps using graphite for lube.  Now, it's my understanding that one shouldn't use graphite in an AR-15 type rifle because it reacts with aluminum.

IMO, the key takeaway from the SWAT article is that the Kalashnikov-derived rifles did better under extremely cold weather when subjected to neglect and abuse.  One thing that helps them is that compared with the AR-15, they are over-gassed, rather than the fact that they are piston driven.

Semi-related but interesting factoid:

The Canadian Rangers are a reserve component of the Canadian military.  They provide patrols and inspections of remote radar sites.  Like the Alaskan Scouts, the members are mostly Natives.  Their issued rifle remains the No.4 Lee-Enfield, which has proven very reliable in Artic conditions.  Its main use nowadays though is for subsistence hunting and protection against wild animals.

Last year my instructor for a LE Patrol Rifle course, Jeff Hall, is a retired Lt. Colonel for the AK State Police. He did his time with the AKSP after serving in the Air Force in Vietnam. I was stationed in Sitka where the SP academy is located and had some fun talking about SE AK with him. He talked about having three weapons, an AR, a shotgun and a 357 revolver with 125's. Never heard him talk about AR problems with the cold weather during his stints in the interior. Like what was mentioned, you need to make changes for your environment. What works in Florida isn't going to cut in it in the Last Frontier. For those in SE Alaska, corrosion is a big problem having the Pacific Ocean mist and volcanic ash mixed into everything. All my firearms I bought up there were stainless steel and were kept cold before using them by leaving them in the trunk for hours before use. 'Warm' days are not a problem, but if you facing sub-zero conditions, you need to think differently.

sig 55x?

Simplified to extreme: SIG 55x is an AK.

i know that and you know that, but the haters keep hatin'

I think that alot of bad weather failures may be magazine related as well. They must be clean and dry.

Instead of hatin', haters should read bigger hammer:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/

What comes to bolt guns and cold, there are also differences between them. During Winter War 1939 it was found out that Russian Mosin-Nagants were more reliable than Finnish modified Moisin Nagant rifles that had closer tolerances. Enfieldmust also be good because it has been success in the Arctic with Danes and their Sirius patrol IIRC.

Capability of a weapon to deal with extreme climates depends on many things. But if I had to put what I think of it in simple terms I would say one needs to add "over-" in front of everything. Overgas, oversize, overdimension, etc.. etc... less there are tolerances in machining or operation worse is the reliability. If the weapon is extremely ergonomic and something you can operate with your fingertips, you might not be able to work it with thick gloves (or even worse mittens ín your hand). For instance the mentioned Valmets can be operated with mittens without problems, they really work well up north. But they are hardly the pinnacle of weapon design, they just work well where others do not.

Point is that in todays world optimal in the desert is not optimal in arctic, and vice versa.

And true to the ARF mantra, you have to own both. Tropical and Arctic firearms.

I fully agree!!

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Jeff Hall - AK Info
Soke Hall
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I am not questioning Jeff Hall, I am questioning you.  I have not been to the southeast, but I do live on the coast and have a volcano within sight of my home (erupted last year) and some of the things you listed as considerations do not even register.  I am also unaware of any recently active volcanoes in SE.  It is much cooler here in the winter than Sitka and one does not have to leave their rifle in the cold for hours to shoot it.  I only have 2 stainless guns.  

And they are the Alaska State Troopers.  

I've spent more than a half century in the upper plains where winter is often colder than parts of Alaska by a good 40 degrees or more. We notice things like that when your brass parts are shattering off your body. I've never had failure to function with many types of weapons, pump shotguns (no shotgun autos though), bolt, lever, auto rifles and revolvers. What was the key to this? REMOVE THE OIL AND GREASE!!! Then leave dry or lube with graphite. Where did I get this info? From my father who went through a winter in a frozen hell called Korea.

Contrary to some "operators" who say the AR has to run wet, it will run dry just fine. I ran mine with graphite and still do, only during summer months do I switch to other lubes. As far as aluminum reacting with graphite, I haven't seen any issue in 32 years. From the reading I've done salt water/air is a factor, something I'm thousands of miles away from.

Just the fact that proven rifles failed the AK trooper test, tells me the rifles were not properly prepped for severe weather operation. But then again, they are troopers.

Excuse me on the semantics of troopers versus police. Its been 23 years since I left AK.
I am not a geologist nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn, but am only going on what we were told and what I saw. While Mt. Edgecumb has not erupted in a very long time, the pumice / volcanic ash is superfine and tends to get into things. IIRC, the ash would somehow keep floating to the top of the water and wind up on the beaches, hence the black 'sand'. Living on an island and working the coast we were exposed to it constantly. Mix it with salt water and the corrosion is accelerated. I am not a geologist and am simply repeating what we were told as helicopter aircrew and mechanics. Our engine inlet guide vanes, compressor blades and leading edges of the rotor blades would wear faster then other bases, with the exception being our sister station in Kodiak. When we would do our SOAP (spectrum oil analysis program) samples, the lab would detect these traces. The two weapons I kept in my flight bag were stainless because it was quite common to do salt water landings and many times depending on how hard we landed or how many wet and soaked people we were bringing into the H-3's were would get a shit load of water in the cabin. I know that my Marlin 336 and my 22lr rusted a lot of more then any of my stainless weapons. And yes the HH-3F's were an amphibious helicopters.  YMMV.

As far as Sitka not being that cold you are right. But when we went hunting further north around Skagway, Haines, Cordova as soon as you hiked up to any elevation, the temperature dropped real fast. Also, you are flying up about 5,000 feet, the unheated areas of the cabin got pretty cold and then drop back down, bring your weapon into the living quarters, back out to the cold, you will develop condensation. I never had problems with my wheel gun or my Mini 14, but then again, the Mini14 isn't a precision weapon. Another factor for keeping them in the trunk when I was living on base was you couldn't keep them in your room and had to lock them up in the armory.

This is my recollection, that in Korea (in winter) the Marines simply ran their M-14's completely dry. No grease, lube, nothing.

M-14's in Korea?