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Posted: 12/5/2009 8:58:48 AM EDT
[#1]
The nature of this question just sounds bad and brings a lot of questions to mind, which, I'm sure, is why you prefaced your question with a statement about not doing anything illegal.
My guess is yes, they could smell the contents of the bag, but it would have more to do with trace amounts of food or whatever on the outside of the bag. |
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Posted: 12/5/2009 9:00:20 AM EDT
[#2]
more than likely, but not necessarily from the items on the inside leaking through to the outside (although that may be the case, i'm not sure). The dog will more than likely pick up any scent from items that touched the outside of the bag prior to being placed inside. A well trained K-9 truly is a remarkable thing. If you touched an item that a K-9 is trained to react to and then placed the item inside a mylar bag and sealed it up - you are exposing the outside of the mylar with scent that the dog will "hit" on (if that makes sense). They are capable of picking up a single scent out of hundreds of scents that are entering their nose. I've heard it explained as when a human smells a big mac, they smell a big mac. When a dog smells a big mac, they smell the meat patty, cheese slice, lettuce, "special sauce", pickles, bread, etc and are able to hone in on only one of the smells amongst all the other
The P.D I worked for didn't have their own K-9 and we often called in favors to a neighboring P.D that had a K-9. I watched that dog do some remarkable things. |
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Posted: 12/5/2009 9:45:04 AM EDT
[#3]
I saw a documentary once about the olfactory sensitivity of dogs.
They were driving down a highway and stopping past each exit. If the dog had a hit they kept going, until the dog lost the scent. They then took the exit and confirmed the trail. This was the day after the crime. |
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Posted: 12/5/2009 9:57:37 AM EDT
[#4]
Growing up, we raised a bloodhound and trained him to find people.
The answer to your question is, "yes". |
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Posted: 12/5/2009 10:35:26 AM EDT
[#5]
I can't see how a dog could smell something through the bag. If he can, that means the bag is not air tight and is leaking, and really kind of pointless as your food will not keep.
Like someone else said, the dog would smell the residual contamination on the outside of the bag from you handling the food and then sealing the bag and then handling the bag again as you move it to its storage location. After everything is sealed and you really washed your hands good, and wore rubber gloves, and then gave the sealed bags a good soapy washing a couple of times, the dog wouldn't know what's inside it. Be a good test for someone who is K9. Seal up some drugs or whatever the dog looks for, and clean the bag, let it sit for a week or so and have him try to find it. I say drugs, because I never heard of a K9 unit trained to sniff out freeze dried corn, but I could be wrong. |
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Posted: 12/5/2009 10:40:11 AM EDT
[#6]
A few years ago a K9 sniffed out sealed cocaine from a gas tank.
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Posted: 12/5/2009 11:04:52 AM EDT
[#7]
vacuum pack, run through dishwasher then place that bag in another bag and vac that and run through dighwasher again. Dogs will not smell contents.
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Posted: 12/5/2009 11:18:45 AM EDT
[#8]
I'd worry more about rodents smelling food than dogs.
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Posted: 12/5/2009 5:02:37 PM EDT
[#9]
YES - there was a fellow who trained dobermans for the war in the Pacific - forgot the books name ( its on dog smarts) and he found he could sterilize glass ashtrays, have someone bury them in the surf line - let the tide come in and out and the dogs could come along and find every one of the glass ashtrays.....and glass has no "smell"............
 –– so , Yes, I also work with a dog trainer here in Texas who trains for Mondioring and some of her dogs have become cadaver dogs....talk about sniffing out bodies from underwater.....that's a nose!!!
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Posted: 12/5/2009 10:17:44 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
YES - there was a fellow who trained dobermans for the war in the Pacific - forgot the books name ( its on dog smarts) and he found he could sterilize glass ashtrays, have someone bury them in the surf line - let the tide come in and out and the dogs could come along and find every one of the glass ashtrays.....and glass has no "smell"............ –– so , Yes, I also work with a dog trainer here in Texas who trains for Mondioring and some of her dogs have become cadaver dogs....talk about sniffing out bodies from underwater.....that's a nose!!!I'm not knocking either the dog or the trainer/author, but likely the dog smelled the scent of the disturbed sand layers, shovel, the scents of the diggers, etc. I have seen search dog breeders illustrate how many variables you have to control for when you do testing like this, plus add in the dogs intelligence and you may achieve results that occur for reasons wildly other than you might first think. |
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Posted: 12/5/2009 11:47:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Many animals have very sensitive smell ability. I understand that house flies can smell down to the atom level.
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Posted: 12/6/2009 4:30:31 AM EDT
[#12]
I used to train SAR dogs with the ex-wife.
Can a dog scent through mylar? Yes. Next two questions which are far more important, has the dog been trained properly to alert to a specific scent, and is the handler in tune enough with the dog to read it? I've seen dogs do amazing things. I've also seen a lot of "highly trained" dog teams (handler/dog) make some really stupid misses. So when I am at a mission and I hear things like "the dog team went over the area and had no hits" the first question I ask is "which team?" |
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Posted: 12/6/2009 5:40:03 AM EDT
[#13]
having been in LE for 15+ years and having worked closely with scent dogs in several of my positions I would say that they mylar would NOT keep the dog from hitting on what ever is inside.
These dogs are kind of amazining in what they can smell and what they can smell through. J- |
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Posted: 12/6/2009 4:07:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
vacuum pack, run through dishwasher then place that bag in another bag and vac that and run through dighwasher again. Dogs will not smell contents. Bingo,, clean the outside. Fuck the man. |
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Posted: 12/6/2009 4:08:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
having been in LE for 15+ years and having worked closely with scent dogs in several of my positions I would say that they mylar would NOT keep the dog from hitting on what ever is inside. These dogs are kind of amazining in what they can smell and what they can smell through. J- B.S. Maybe a sandwich type bag but not a sealed mylar. |
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Posted: 12/6/2009 4:38:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
having been in LE for 15+ years and having worked closely with scent dogs in several of my positions I would say that they mylar would NOT keep the dog from hitting on what ever is inside. These dogs are kind of amazining in what they can smell and what they can smell through. J- B.S. Maybe a sandwich type bag but not a sealed mylar. Uh, not B.S at all - 3 seconds on google returned this: http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-dog4.htm here is a cut and paste of the relevant part: "Breston uncovered a shipment of marijuana in heat-sealed Mylar bags, inside plastic-lined crates sealed with foam sealant, inside a closed storage garage." |
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Posted: 12/6/2009 4:51:08 PM EDT
[#17]
seal bag then autoclave do not touch the bags again
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Posted: 12/6/2009 7:45:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Doesn't plastic and other similar materials have certain "porous...ness"? "porosity"? little microscopic holes and stuff? Which is why my tupperware is orange from the left over pasta sauce that was stored in it 4 years ago?
Soooo following this "logic", it would allow little bitty scent molecules out? This science lesson has been brought to you by an idiot who slept through most of his high school science classes. Someone will be along to tell me how dumb i am soon. |
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Posted: 12/6/2009 8:21:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
having been in LE for 15+ years and having worked closely with scent dogs in several of my positions I would say that they mylar would NOT keep the dog from hitting on what ever is inside. These dogs are kind of amazining in what they can smell and what they can smell through. J- B.S. Maybe a sandwich type bag but not a sealed mylar. Please feel free then, to explain how drug dogs smell sealed mylar bags in gas tanks filled with gasoline. It's a daily event on the border. Oh, they've also smelled out sealed bags inside of cement pillers and bird baths. Oops, and they also sniff out packages that have been triple and quadruple wrapped with baby powder and dish soap layered in with the mylar wrapping. So...a major B.S. to your B.S. |
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Posted: 12/6/2009 8:41:02 PM EDT
[#20]
If you control the area contaminate it.
Put Hoppe's #9 and some Bullseye in your heating/cooling system and have the fan motor spread it throughout the air ducts. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 2:56:18 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
having been in LE for 15+ years and having worked closely with scent dogs in several of my positions I would say that they mylar would NOT keep the dog from hitting on what ever is inside. These dogs are kind of amazining in what they can smell and what they can smell through. J- B.S. Maybe a sandwich type bag but not a sealed mylar. And your experience with the subject is? I've witnessed it. Repeatedly. You? |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 2:59:50 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Doesn't plastic and other similar materials have certain "porous...ness"? "porosity"? little microscopic holes and stuff? Which is why my tupperware is orange from the left over pasta sauce that was stored in it 4 years ago? Soooo following this "logic", it would allow little bitty scent molecules out? This science lesson has been brought to you by an idiot who slept through most of his high school science classes. Someone will be along to tell me how dumb i am soon. You're not dumb at all. That is exactly the mechanism. Mylar is much better than other types of plastic as its porosity is much lower, but it's not perfect. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 4:12:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
having been in LE for 15+ years and having worked closely with scent dogs in several of my positions I would say that they mylar would NOT keep the dog from hitting on what ever is inside. These dogs are kind of amazining in what they can smell and what they can smell through. J- B.S. Maybe a sandwich type bag but not a sealed mylar. Uh, not B.S at all - 3 seconds on google returned this: http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-dog4.htm here is a cut and paste of the relevant part: "Breston uncovered a shipment of marijuana in heat-sealed Mylar bags, inside plastic-lined crates sealed with foam sealant, inside a closed storage garage." I have no expertise with dogs so I'm not siding with anybody. But a "find" is much different than a properly controlled study. A properly controlled study would included ensuring that there is not one spec of residue left anywhere outside of the mylar. In a "find" that can't be ensured, so using an article about that as evidence that a dog can't smell through mylar doesn't fly. Find a study that says the same thing and maybe there will be a little bit of credibility. As stated previously, the dogs can pick up on the slightest unusual scent, so every single aspect of that needs to be controlled for a proper study. I for one find it very hard to believe that a dog can smell through mylar, which is a non-permeable membrane (NOTHING can pass through it). Quoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't plastic and other similar materials have certain "porous...ness"? "porosity"? little microscopic holes and stuff? Which is why my tupperware is orange from the left over pasta sauce that was stored in it 4 years ago? Soooo following this "logic", it would allow little bitty scent molecules out? This science lesson has been brought to you by an idiot who slept through most of his high school science classes. Someone will be along to tell me how dumb i am soon. You're not dumb at all. That is exactly the mechanism. Mylar is much better than other types of plastic as its porosity is much lower, but it's not perfect. Not only much better, but it is non-permeable because of the several layers of materials used in its manufacturing it takes the best features of several materials and combines them. One of the those features is a non-permeable membrane. So nothing can pass through. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 5:15:45 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
If you control the area contaminate it. Put Hoppe's #9 and some Bullseye in your heating/cooling system and have the fan motor spread it throughout the air ducts. We have a winner! |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 5:52:20 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
[ I have no expertise with dogs so I'm not siding with anybody. But a "find" is much different than a properly controlled study. A properly controlled study would included ensuring that there is not one spec of residue left anywhere outside of the mylar. In a "find" that can't be ensured, so using an article about that as evidence that a dog can't smell through mylar doesn't fly. Find a study that says the same thing and maybe there will be a little bit of credibility. As stated previously, the dogs can pick up on the slightest unusual scent, so every single aspect of that needs to be controlled for a proper study. I for one find it very hard to believe that a dog can smell through mylar, which is a non-permeable membrane (NOTHING can pass through it). Quoted:
You're not dumb at all. That is exactly the mechanism. Mylar is much better than other types of plastic as its porosity is much lower, but it's not perfect. Not only much better, but it is non-permeable because of the several layers of materials used in its manufacturing it takes the best features of several materials and combines them. One of the those features is a non-permeable membrane. So nothing can pass through. Wrong. That mylar is a completely nonpermeable membrane is a popular misconception. Reference: "Low temperature test methods and standards for containers: a symposium By United States. Quartermaster Food and Container Institute for the Armed Forces, Chicago, Earl C. Myers, Norbert J. Leinen" Moreover, sealing mylar increases porosity and decreases mechanical strength at the seal. However, you want a controlled study. Cadaver material was placed inside and sealed in mylar using clean technique and then heat treated to kill biological deterioration and then used as training material for cadaver dogs. The dogs are able to scent through that material. Controls included empty mylar bags filled with "distractants" (food reward). I have further anecdotal evidence: I was using laboratory grade ethyl mercaptan to do air trace studies in karstic terrains. I had been given 3 one pint containers that were 25 years (appr) old. The one pint lab bottles were sealed inside double wrap mylar, packed inside absorbant and sealed in metal cans. When I opened the first there was no mercaptan left. The second and third had a few mls each. Now, what is your evidence to the contrary? Look, no doubt mylar is one of the most cost effective sealing materials we can use, but it is not "perfect." |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 10:00:13 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
However, you want a controlled study. Cadaver material was placed inside and sealed in mylar using clean technique and then heat treated to kill biological deterioration and then used as training material for cadaver dogs. The dogs are able to scent through that material. Controls included empty mylar bags filled with "distractants" (food reward). I have further anecdotal evidence: I was using laboratory grade ethyl mercaptan to do air trace studies in karstic terrains. I had been given 3 one pint containers that were 25 years (appr) old. The one pint lab bottles were sealed inside double wrap mylar, packed inside absorbant and sealed in metal cans. When I opened the first there was no mercaptan left. The second and third had a few mls each. Ok, you got me on the mylar, I was under the impression that it was "perfect" in a sense. Do you have a source for this study? I'd be interested in reading it. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 10:26:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Well, I couldn't take anymore so I called the company where I buy my bags from and asked them.
Turns out I was wrong, and that it is possible for a good dog to sniff out what's inside a bag. He said it's called the Transmission Rate and while very very low and really doesn't matter unless we are talking many years, a good dog can still pick up on it. He said as time goes by, it gets easier for the dog because the outside of the bag will slowly get coated with more scent from what's inside. This is why mice and rats chew the bags, they smell the food inside. He said if you want to make it harder for a dog, make sure the bag has a few O2 absorbers in it and create a negative pressure on the inside so air wants in, not out. The chance is reduced, but by no means eliminated. He said he wasn't sure what the limits of a dog are, but the bags do have limits. In short, God did a great job when He created dogs to find bad people doing bad things. Here are the links to the company where I buy my bags from. I don't deal with anyone else. I buy my vacuum sealing machines, and everything from them. Good people, and great products. Their web site Specs of a 4.4 mil bag Their products |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 10:27:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you control the area contaminate it. Put Hoppe's #9 and some Bullseye in your heating/cooling system and have the fan motor spread it throughout the air ducts. We have a winner! Not even close to win! A second scent will not confuse or deter a dog. BTW: Most drug loads are not in a vehicle's interior where this technique could be used. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 10:34:32 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
However, you want a controlled study. Cadaver material was placed inside and sealed in mylar using clean technique and then heat treated to kill biological deterioration and then used as training material for cadaver dogs. The dogs are able to scent through that material. Controls included empty mylar bags filled with "distractants" (food reward). I have further anecdotal evidence: I was using laboratory grade ethyl mercaptan to do air trace studies in karstic terrains. I had been given 3 one pint containers that were 25 years (appr) old. The one pint lab bottles were sealed inside double wrap mylar, packed inside absorbant and sealed in metal cans. When I opened the first there was no mercaptan left. The second and third had a few mls each. Ok, you got me on the mylar, I was under the impression that it was "perfect" in a sense. Do you have a source for this study? I'd be interested in reading it. Sorry, no. It wasn't a study in the scientific sense that it was an experiment, this was training material used during (and still as far as I know) cadaver dog training I was involved with from 1999-2001. I have no references for it as that part of my life left with my exwife who was the canine handler/trainer. My experience with the mercaptan though gave me an appreciation for the high penetration value of some VOCs. The main reason some things are sealed in glass is because glass has some of the lowest permeability of any readily available materials out there. I have glass 1ml ampules of mercaptan that have been sealed for over a decade and show no loss. Having an amorphous structure it has no crystalline boundaries to allow ready molecular penetration, unlike metals and plastics. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 11:14:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
However, you want a controlled study. Cadaver material was placed inside and sealed in mylar using clean technique and then heat treated to kill biological deterioration and then used as training material for cadaver dogs. The dogs are able to scent through that material. Controls included empty mylar bags filled with "distractants" (food reward). I have further anecdotal evidence: I was using laboratory grade ethyl mercaptan to do air trace studies in karstic terrains. I had been given 3 one pint containers that were 25 years (appr) old. The one pint lab bottles were sealed inside double wrap mylar, packed inside absorbant and sealed in metal cans. When I opened the first there was no mercaptan left. The second and third had a few mls each. Ok, you got me on the mylar, I was under the impression that it was "perfect" in a sense. Do you have a source for this study? I'd be interested in reading it. Sorry, no. It wasn't a study in the scientific sense that it was an experiment, this was training material used during (and still as far as I know) cadaver dog training I was involved with from 1999-2001. I have no references for it as that part of my life left with my exwife who was the canine handler/trainer. My experience with the mercaptan though gave me an appreciation for the high penetration value of some VOCs. The main reason some things are sealed in glass is because glass has some of the lowest permeability of any readily available materials out there. I have glass 1ml ampules of mercaptan that have been sealed for over a decade and show no loss. Having an amorphous structure it has no crystalline boundaries to allow ready molecular penetration, unlike metals and plastics. Ok, thanks. I believe you, I was just curious. Mainly I was looking for some actual quantifying data that says how quickly mylar transmits those smells. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 11:24:06 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
I believe you, I was just curious. Mainly I was looking for some actual quantifying data that says how quickly mylar transmits those smells. Check out the websites 1 big bunker posted, they contain a good deal of information on the subject. 3 orders of magnitude is still only the difference between ppt and ppm :) |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 3:02:24 PM EDT
[#32]
Originally posted by Migradog
Quoted:
Quoted: If you control the area contaminate it. Put Hoppe's #9 and some Bullseye in your heating/cooling system and have the fan motor spread it throughout the air ducts. We have a winner! Not even close to win! A second scent will not confuse or deter a dog. BTW: Most drug loads are not in a vehicle's interior where this technique could be used. Unless you are trying to hide Hoppe's #9 and Bullseye. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 4:46:06 PM EDT
[#33]
If we use the figures from the people I spoke to today, here is the numbers I came up with as far as what leaks through a mylar bag.
O2 TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON) This is a certified maximum transmission rate . No other inventoried structure has a .5 mil foil layer. 0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs. Let's say a mylar bag is 24'' wide, and 36'' long, that comes out to 864 sq. in. and multiply that times 2 for a front and a back because it's a bag, and we have 1728 square inches. 1728 / 100sq.in. as that is what it says above = 17.28 x .0006 = .010368 cc per day of leakage in a big bag. .010368 x 365 days = 3.78432 cc of leakage 3.78432 x 30 years = 113.5296 cc of leakage 113.5296 / .061023 ci per cc = 6.926 total cubic inches of leakage in 30 years through the bag. That is about the same size as an Altoids tin, 6.926 ci. That isn't much leakage if you ask me. |
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Posted: 12/7/2009 5:06:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Not to hijack, but what about sealed glass? Is there any leakage there?
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Posted: 12/7/2009 5:07:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
If we use the figures from the people I spoke to today, here is the numbers I came up with as far as what leaks through a mylar bag. O2 TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON) This is a certified maximum transmission rate . No other inventoried structure has a .5 mil foil layer. 0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs. Let's say a mylar bag is 24'' wide, and 36'' long, that comes out to 864 sq. in. and multiply that times 2 for a front and a back because it's a bag, and we have 1728 square inches. 1728 / 100sq.in. as that is what it says above = 17.28 x .0006 = .010368 cc per day of leakage in a big bag. .010368 x 365 days = 3.78432 cc of leakage 3.78432 x 30 years = 113.5296 cc of leakage 113.5296 / .061023 ci per cc = 6.926 total cubic inches of leakage in 30 years through the bag. That is about the same size as an Altoids tin, 6.926 ci. That isn't much leakage if you ask me. Nope, which is why it's a good storage medium for stuff. It's just not scentproof :) Also the big weakness of mylar bags is the seal, that area alone can have more permeability than the rest of the bag. |
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