I'm a newb to USPSA, and plan on shooting my first match next month. I found a local place (TDSA, Ferris, TX) I read that a lot of new guys shoot in Limited, I'll be using a Glock 19, since it's my primary CCW gun and my old faithful. I read you can fully load magazines, and still get reloads in, but not have to worry about carrying 4-5 extra magazines, plus won't have to buy an extra magazine to begin with until I'm officially, and not (youtube/forum) attached yet. Reading the rules, they look strikingly similar to Production, minus the magazine capacity.

You can certainly shoot your G19 in Limited, especially if you don't want to buy more magazines (and that might be a good thing). You'll be at a bit of a disadvantage, but if you come to terms with that ahead of time, you'll be just fine. Why a disadvantage? Most of the guns you'll be shooting against will be .40 S&W 5" guns with a higher mag capacity. They'll have a longer sight radius (making hits on those longer-range headshots or steel targets a smidge easier). They hold more rounds than your 9mm. But the biggest difference is that they will score major. The difference between major and minor does not look like much on paper, but it's a big deal in practice.

Essentially, your Glock will make it harder (read: slower) for you to get "A" or "B" hits due to sight radius, and when you do pick up a "C" or "D", you're severely penalized due to caliber. And most of the other shooters will get at least 2 more targets before reloading, which can add up.

Does that mean that your Glock can't be fun to shoot? Heck no! But don't go into this with the expectation that you'll take Limited division your first trip out. Keep your head around the fact that you're learning, and trying out a new hobby, and you'll do fine. The goal isn't to see how high up you can make it (yet), it's to make it through safely.

I agree with the "shoot what you got" concept, and would suggest that if you like it, you're probably going to end up with a G34 or G35 within 6 months anyway. No sense buying shorter mags when you're going to be buying a bunch for the new pistol in a little while anyway.

Thanks for the response. I'm looking to buy more magazines anyway for the G19, so I guess it wouldn't hurt to buy 1 or 2 more now (for range reasons, which I could overly justify getting now for range AND uspsa use). A COF is 32 rounds right? I'm reading in a few places that 51 rounds would be plenty enough, so long as there aren't many "Texas Stars" or a lot of distant steel. If I could pick up 2 more magazines, would you recommend that against shooting in Limited? I'm not worried about score, just basics, good solid fundementals and getting started.

ETA: Midway had magazines for $20, so I picked up 3. :)

Shoot ltd, minor have fun. Don't worry about minor scoring, much more to grasp at first than major or minor scoring.

Production was pretty much made for you. CCW gear and a DAO Glock. Production also has limits on where to put the holster and mag pouches, which with everyday CCW stuff, you'll be just fine.

Production is scored Minor, regardless of caliber. yes you have to download the mags to 10 rounds. And, that will mean more reloads (depending on club) but hey, you'r enew, you need practice on reloading, trust me.

All that said, my actual recommendation for you is to shoot a Match Limited and one in Production and see what you prefer. Myself, I shoot limited primarily because I don't like downloading my mags, and honestly the biggest issue for me is having to put my hammer down on a live round with my CZ75 SP01. I HATE doing that!

Definitely got a lot more to grasp than scoring at this point. I look forward to shoot, regardless of what class I choose.

I have no idea what the minor/major scoring is, anyone care to explain that in lamens terms?

My first match will likely be shot in Production, I have all the gear for it, afterwards, after seeing a match, I'll shoot limited. I like the idea of reloads, and have a decently fast reload (compared to some of our swat guys at least). Nothing like Tomassie, but definitely not fumbling around and such.

I really appreciate everyones input here, it's helping a ton.

OK, Major/Minor scoring depends on a couple of things. First, the division you shoot. Second, the power factor of your ammunition. Power factor is the bullet weight (in grains) times the velocity (in FPS) divided by 1000. So a 165 gr bullet going 1000 fps = 165000/1000 = 165 power factor. To shoot "Major", you have to be above 165 (which is where most .40 cals come in). To shoot "Minor", you have to be between 125 and 165. That is where most 9mm's fall.

In Limited division, 9mm is ALWAYS scored minor, regardless of how fast the bullet is going. You have to be at least a .40 cal to score major.

In Production division, all guns are scored minor, regardless of caliber or power factor.

So what does it mean? It means nothing if all of your hits are either "good" head shots or center of mass hits on the target. The center of mass and ocular zone (called the A zone) score 5 points regardless of power factor. For B and C zone hits (just outside the A zone), Major scores 4, Minor scores 3. Your penalty is twice as much. For a D zone hit (outer edge of the target) Major gets 2 points, minor gets 1. So when you're shooting a minor score against a major opponent, you either need to be more accurate, or significantly faster to make up for it. In most cases, minor scoring isn't worth it.

Now in Production, everyone is scored minor so the playing field is more level. Everyone gets the same penalties. This is really the division that your Glock is most suited for.

I agree that the glock 19 is prolly more suited for production. Having said that, however, if you want to shoot limited.... go for it. USPSA is extremely fun and addicting. In single stack, minor actually kinda has an advantage, well, is at least on level playing ground imho. Minor gets to load 10 rounds in a mag instead of 8.

USPSA is about speed and accuracy, but emphasis is on speed for sure. In limited, you'll be fighting an uphill battle, but like someone else said, if you know that going in to it, and just have a good time, you'll be fine and have a lot of fun.

Perfect, thanks so much for the explanation, I really appreciate it.

Yeah, after reading a ton, I'm going to shoot production first. I'll have a total of 6 magazines, 4 on my belt and 1 in the gun, and if I have to for some reason, I'll throw on one of my single magazine holders and run with 5, ha.

My main focus when I go shoot next month, and every month after for a good while is going to be accuracy, and naturally speed will build up as I go. Not looking to go in there guns blazing and to impress anyone, unless they're impressed by someone new coming in and trying to learn everything they can and taking things slow at first.

Thanks everyone again for all the help, it is greatly appreciated.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, I shoot at Ferris and could lend you some G19 mags if you still need them. We had an excellent match out there on Saturday. There were a bunch of nerw people, most in Limited I think just because of the mag count issues. One of the guys out there used to shoot a minor PF 1911 in Limited. I shoot a fairly-stock G22 in Limited, the only mods are sights and grip tape. It is major PF but otherwise isn't holding me back (4th place at the match this weekend). I shoot for fun and the racier guns give me too much stress getting them to run 100%. As a new competitive shooter you're not losing much with a G19, especially if you're familiar with it. Give it 3 months or so to get used to the game and you'll be able to tell if it's holding you back, and also by observing others you'll know what you want to change to. I always say just run what you have for the first bit. One of the guys I got shooting last year didn't listen and has a USP sitting on the shelf, ignored now that he bought a G34 after a few matches.

[USPSA rules diversion]
I have philosophical complaints about Production as it currently is done (mods allowed, 10-round capacity, ignores "Vis"), so I have trouble getting into it. As I started when there was only Open and Limited, I see them as the major leagues, while Production is intended as an entry-level division that has been bastardized and made excessively racy. What's the #1 perceived thing keeping people from shooting USPSA? "I can't compete against all those $2000 race guns". It's not true but that's the impression people get from the outside. Once you get in you'll see that you can be competitive in Limited up to a very high level with some fairly stock gear. But early on Production is an easy place to start that most people's equipment will meet (except for 1911s and how most matches can't be done with the stock number of downloaded mags *sigh* ) and lets 9mm be equal, but with fulltime competitors in Production the equipment race is just as tough there as anywhere else. It just doesn't seem like it since they look pretty stock from the outside.

If they are serious about people staying in it as a regular division, I think it should have very limited mods, and probably should be shot from concealment. Otherwise, it is not much different from Limited or L10. As an alternate to a long list of allowable mods, I brought up a "claimer class" rule on the Enos board, as a way to limit the investment in Production guns to a level where new people with stock guns are nearly equal in equipment. In my rule, all mods were allowed, but anyone you beat in Production in the match could "claim" the gun in echange for $MSRP of the stock gun. You can invest some more money in mods (you get a little space since most guns sell for below MSRP especially if used), but you risk having somebody take it away if they think it was an advantage. It's a market-based system that sets an upper threshold on the money race. Obviously, this has a few logistical challenges in less free states, but I think it was an interesting thought experiment. Heck, somebody like Sevigny could make money by winning with a $300 used Glock, then getting it claimed for $549 since it must be special in some way.
[/diversion]

Edit: And Production shouldn't have a round limit, if it has a tight box (size limit) or is shot from concealment. 10-round limit removes the incentive for innovation in new guns. Without a limit, if you can fit 20 rounds in a small space, then go for it, those shooters have an advantage, and the technology improves for all.

This is primarily a reply to the previous diversion. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack, or a hostile reply. I have really come to enjoy USPSA again and I really do like the discussions of "what is the purpose of this" for divisions, rules, etc.

[/begin diversion reply]

I've been shooting Production for the last year, and have enjoyed it. I also hate the 10 round limit, but I've come to understand and appreciate what the Production (and Single Stack!) division is doing for the sport. I too began shooting USPSA when there was Open and Limited. I was a minty new shooter, had bought my first handgun (a first-run Kimber Classic Custom), and showed up at the range with my jeans belt, a nylon Bianchi Accumold holster, and no mag pouches. I got put into Limited. Everyone else on the squad was shooting a Para 16-40 or an STI/SVI custom in .40. I soldiered on with the Kimber for a while, but ultimately gave it up when I realized that I could not make my Kimber competitive.

This was in the "dark years" of the mag ban. I would have had a hard time affording even the Para (at that time they were ridiculously expensive) - but then I would NEVER have been able to afford magazines. Pre-ban mags were selling for stupid prices, and I was unwilling to dance with the law by assembling magazines from parts. I ended up away from USPSA for about 15 years. I came back shooting Single Stack and moved to Production.

Production solves a number of problems in its current form for USPSA. IMHO, the capacity issue is the only really tricky point with the current Production ruleset. Most new folks who show up won't have more than 3 magazines. That won't do for Production. However, one of the things that Production really allows is for people living in Communist-Occupied states (which happen to have higher population densities...) to shoot in major matches with the exact same equipment they're using now. No trying to buy or borrow mags out-of-state that you can't legally own in your home state. No paying still stupid prices for pre-banners to make your Glock 17 legal at home. Show up with your neutered mags and you're at no disadvantage against anyone else.

The other thing the capacity limit does is really allow people to shoot anything they want (other than a HP) in Production. Take the capacity limit off, and the new shooters will immediately be up against guys whos mags hold 21 or 22 rounds. If they show up with a stock .40 cal and get put in production, their mags may hold 14. Will they see that as welcoming? If you eliminate base pads to try to regulate that, you'll still have an arms race to guns that hold one more than another just for that little edge.

I would be against concealment for Production. I've shot IDPA now, and the whole concealment piece is a joke. Fishing vests? Seriously? If you're going to require concealment, IMHO, you need to require an IWB holster and a sweatshirt, as I'm guessing very few people stroll around town with their Glock 34 in a BladeTech under a Woolrich fishing vest.

Your idea about making the guns buyable by anyone is interesting, but I can see that being abused VERY quickly. Springfield would release a special "TGO" XDm with a $3K retail price, but if you join "Club Springer" for $50 a year, you can buy one of them for $600. If you win a match and it gets bought from you (for $3K), you can buy another for $600. CZCustom will release a $2500 gun that has absolutely everything you could possibly want done to it. To implement your rule, I'd demand that I'm paid in cash at the event. How many folks will pony up a couple thousand when the companies produce these "race-ready" editions?

I guess where I'm coming down is that I have come to like Production where it is. I don't think that there is anything going on in the arms race that puts newcomers at a huge disadvantage. Afterall, there are limited modifications you can make. It's not like you're adding mag wells or supertuned magazines that can really make a difference in reloading frequency or time. Sure a trigger job may make a Glock a bit less of a krunch-und-ticker, but it's not something that will be that huge of a difference. I see lots of new shooters in Production (a good thing). If they stick with it, some of them move into Limited or Single Stack. I think Production as it stands now really is a funnel into the sport, and I've yet to see any proposed changes (not just here) that would make it more welcoming for a larger group of people.

[/end diversion reply]

Hey mPisi, looking forward to getting out there next month. Me and a buddy of mine are coming out. Since you shoot out there, how many rounds should we bring with us? And I got 3 new magazines in from Midway today, found them at what I thought to be a good deal, about $20 a magazine. Most places I saw had new ones for $25+ and then shipping.

Bear84, we shot about 150 rounds in 5 stages this week, that's about usual. I'd bring at least 200 and preferably 250 just to be safe. The max in one stage was 37 I think if you don't miss.

59Bassman, thanks for your reply, I am pondering a longer response. I admit I come at USPSA from a different angle than most folks, and with multiple, sometimes conflicting goals. I too started in the ban years, but with a Para P14 that I bought when I turned 21. I was interested in IPSC but wasn't shooting yet, and didn't know anyone who shot .40. P16 mags may have been different but P14 mags were not more than H&K mags are today, so it wasn't too bad on the price side. The factory giving a coupon for 3 extras for $30 each IIRC were a nice plus. I still remember my mom receiving them at home and telling me some metal parts had arrived, she about fell over when I told her they were $50 each on the street. But eventually I got sick of messing around with the mags especially when I got extensions to do 18+1. Finally started reloading and moved to a G20 for a number of years (and still have a SVI in 10mm that I won in a raffle), then finally admitted the smaller frames fit better and went to the G22. As an average B shooter who averages one match a month and doesn't practice much, none of these guns held me back.

Perfect man. Definitely looking forward to coming out and meeting all of ya'll. Everyone that I've talked to has been awesome. Emailed Tim and talked to him on the phone several times, really helpful and nice guy to deal with.

OP: good thoughts on concentrating on accuracy now and worry about speed later. Lately my hits have fallen way off, so the last match I tried to get all A's. I took my time with the sights, but pushed between target arrays. I didn't get all A's, but the % was greatly improved over my last match, and my score compared to other shooters was up too.


mPisi:
I started in production in 2009 and just got my B card for it in the mail last week. I like production as it is, and locally many people agree as it is one of the top attended divisions the other being limited. I understand the 10 rnd mag rule, and like it even though I have never lived in a ban state. I also like everything is scored minor as it provides a place for 9mm's to play on fair ground. As for the trigger mods and sights, these will improve the gun, but they are not game changers. Increasing mag capacity would blur the lines between limited and production more than any internal mod done to a Glock. Please do not add cover garments to USPSA, as was said earlier I don't wear fishing vests to the mall. USPSA is a game, I want to play like the other divisions but on a 9mm budget.

Just a bump since the match is Saturday if it isn't rained out. Will probably hear tomorrow what the range status is. They've done some good work down there to get rid of water, but it's still muddy for a while. Sometimes they will use the gravel bays only and set up a couple stages in each.


ziebart thanks for your comments. For 9mm being competative I should mention that I think Major PF should be back at 175, that will make Minor mean something again in a mixed division.

Saturday is good to go.

Also 3-gun or 2-gun (carbine-pistol) match at Johnson County on Mar 31. You choose at registration, shoot shotgun targets with your pistol if you shoot 2-gun.

Just a quick update: USPSA was everything I expected, and more. All of the guys out at the range today were awesome and so helpful. It was good meeting all of you and getting to shoot with ya'll. Looking forward to next month.

Glad to meet you, you and your friend both did great. You got a good start on your B card with that classifier I think. See you next month!