The shotgun is probably the most readily-available weapon in the US. Every sporting goods store that sells firearms will, at minimum, sell shotguns. Ammunition is the most plentiful and cheap compared to centerfire ammo with the possible exception of .22LR. Even non-NRA members may have a shotgun in their home.
So, why do people focus on the carbine as the go-to weapon system for home defense or defense of property? I am not knocking carbine or pistol training, but a defensive shotgun is probably one of the most versatile, effective weapon systems for defense of one's home or life.
It's effectiveness changes with the ammo selection. The reliability of a pump-shotgun system is basically 100% if the operator knows what they are doing.
In a SHTF, what will be available to you? In a new AWB situation, what will be available to you?
I just thought it was interesting how few posts this forum gets in relation to other parts of the training world. I think it is crucial to have MINIMUM one day's shotgun operator's training for the above mentioned reasons and more.
I think there are several reasons you dont see people training with the shotgun
1. It isnt popular. Most people want to look sexy with their weapons and the carbine gets this done for them. If you saw guys running around Iraq with nothing but shotguns, you'd probably see greater interst in them
2. People think you dont need training to use a shotgun effectively. Too many people think of the shotgun as the ultimate "point and click" device. This is readily apparent when you ask people how to aim a shotgun and they tell that they dont. Instead they point at the target.
3. Lower magazine capacity. Most people want something with more than 4 or 5 rounds to protect themselves with
4. Recoil. Most people think of the shotgun as recoil heavy and shy away from the platform as a result
5. Bulky ammo. Ties in with #3. Harder to carry around more ammo
6. Reduced range. With buck you are looking at a max of around 25 yrds for effective use. If you switch to slugs you are going to go just over 100 yrds. Now for most people that is plenty; but some people want more.
Those are just a few off the top of my head. I've been lucky in that the company I teach for has been able to put on some shotgun classes. They are easily the hardest classes to get people in for.
I don't really dispute anything in the original post, but people who are going to spend the money on training will already have spent the money to acquire a carbine. I think it's a little like asking why no one (that I have seen) ever brings a revolver to a pistol class. (plus the thought of loading 1400 rounds into a revolver-
)
I WISH there were some shotgun training classes around here!
Having invested plenty of time taking training classes with a shotgun I have concluded that you are much better off with an AR. Leave the shotgun for breaching and bird hunting.
IBTD308
Shotguns have their place. Look up ballistics info. Pistol bullets and shot have a greater wounding effect than 5.56 through intermediate barriers because the 5.56 relies on velocity for wounding. This may come into play if you don't want to kill the person in the other room.
Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Having invested plenty of time taking training classes with a shotgun I have concluded that you are much better off with an AR. Leave the shotgun for breaching and bird hunting. |
I think it's worth having some familiarity with though. Course I've never taken a shotgun class, they don't particularly interest me. I should probably do that and an ak class.
Here is our main POI. Shotgun courses are preety hard to fill in a large part because people believe they know more about using a shotgun then they realy do.
Full Spectrum Shotgun Employment
(2 days - 4 hours class room & 10 hours range)
Topics include:
- Shotgun equipment selection
- Shooting multiple targets
- Patterning buck shot and bird shot
Sorry, right now we are only set up for Gov. work due to the number of instructors availible.
Originally Posted By Aimless:
I don't really dispute anything in the original post, but people who are going to spend the money on training will already have spent the money to acquire a carbine. I think it's a little like asking why no one (that I have seen) ever brings a revolver to a pistol class. (plus the thought of loading 1400 rounds into a revolver-) |
I train on the carbine, too, but I think there are a lot more people out there with shotguns that don't really know how to use them EFFECTIVELY.
FWIW, I train with my revolver at times because it is tougher. To effectively use the ammo you have and practice better trigger control with the revolver (DA shots) will make you a much better shooter with all your weapons.
Originally Posted By chronium76:
Shotguns have their place. Look up ballistics info. Pistol bullets and shot have a greater wounding effect than 5.56 through intermediate barriers because the 5.56 relies on velocity for wounding. This may come into play if you don't want to kill the person in the other room. |
True. I would probably go for my pistol or carbine as a primary choice if they were available to me, but my point is that most people don't really train with the shotgun when that is an extremely effective tool as well. 9 00 pellets flying your way simultaneously is much more deadly than 1 or 2 .223 or .45 rounds shot in the same timeframe.
Slugs will go right through walls/doors/cover if you need them. 00 buck typically will penetrate less than .223 or pistol rounds. We train to do a slug changeout for different scenarios. If you have never done it, then you will be horribly unprepared if the shotgun is your only weapon available. (not you,
personally, chromium76)
McNielsen,
You are absolutely correct. The shotgun is one of the most powerful long guns you can operate with two hands, yet it is still the least understood. Despite the popularity of the 5.56mm carbine, the shotgun is still the most ubiquitous long gun in police cars across the nation.
SuperDave Harrington calls the 12 gauge shotgun "The Hammer of God" and for good reason. It is extremely powerful at CQB distances, and with specialized ammunition, it is also extremely versatile. This includes: breaching rounds, bean bags, rubber batons, OC, and the new Taser round.
With good sights, you can hit a man sized target at 100 yards with a slug. New 00 Buck ammunition technology, such as Federal's LE-132 load with the FLITECONTROL wad, allows unmodified shotguns to deliver 9 pellets into 4 inches at 15 yards.
The shotgun will likely be the last long gun to be banned, and there is much less political controversy over it than the "evil" black rifles. In addition, with .223 ammunition prices skyrocketing, the shotgun is becoming more economical to train with.
The 12 gauge is not without its shortcomings, such as limited range, increased recoil, and lower round capacity. But with the proper training and ammunition, it is overlooked as one of the most economical and effective home defense tool available today.
Tim
10-8 Consulting, LLC
One big factor against the shotgun is the 1968 GCA.
We will never see a US manufacturer build a semi auto (or even pump) shotgun with a detachable box magazine for fear that ATFE will rule it a DD.
That leaves us with having to deal with the inefficient magazine tube under the barrel.
Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
One big factor against the shotgun is the 1968 GCA.
We will never see a US manufacturer build a semi auto (or even pump) shotgun with a detachable box magazine for fear that ATFE will rule it a DD.
That leaves us with having to deal with the inefficient magazine tube under the barrel. |
The inefficient tube under the barrel might be slower to reload than a carbine, but before you rule out a shotgun for serious self defense, check out some really good 3 gun shooters.
I shot the DPMS Tri-gun last weekend and left there amazed at what skilled shotgunners can do. There were guys loading 3 or 4 rounds at a time unbelievably fast.
As far as mag fed shotguns, I saw a couple Saigas (I know, not US made) set up with 10 round mags that looked to be working pretty well.
I didn't truly appreciate the shotgun until I got good training with one. I'd pick on up for HD before my AR, for many many reasons.
| The shotgun is the most under-utilized, under-trained weapon system |
The USN stepped up its training in arms with focus on the shotgun in the last few years.
"Clear the decks with shot"
Funny you should mention this....
I am signed up for a Shotgun Course taught by Thunder Ranch in north Texas in January. I have wanted to take such a course for years, but finally was able to find one I wanted.
I'll report back with how it went.
Thanks, O_P. I have trained under Defensive Edge, but there are also classes taught by Tactical Response and Rob Haught/10-8 consulting that i have heard good things about. I'm sure there are many many more.
Please give us the full report!
I've been to several shotgun schools and I'm an instructor.
The shotgun is a very effective tool if you know it's limitations, know your ammo selection and practice with it.
Most people think because they go bird hunting a couple of times a year they don't need training but that is far from reality.
Originally Posted By Guardian_Demon:
Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Having invested plenty of time taking training classes with a shotgun I have concluded that you are much better off with an AR. Leave the shotgun for breaching and bird hunting. |
...I don't think mine was designed to kill birds
i51.photobucket.com/albums/f353/Guardian_Demon/IMG_5212.jpg |
But, it is very good at giving people wings!
BTW, I would rethink the variety of shells on that side-saddle. Keep it simple.
Have either one or two types of ammo in/on your shotgun at any one time, IMO.
If you are in a stressful situation, in the dark, etc. you may load the wrong shell and it could prove to be catastrophic for you... I keep mine loaded with slugs and buckshot on the side.
If you have some specialty ammo, keep it somewhere else, in a less than natural place to reach. Keep your standard ammo in a natural, easy to reach location.
I agree about the lack of trtaining with the shotgun. For example we qualify monthly with sidearms and patrol rifles but only annually with the shotguns. But then we dont use the shotguns for much anymore. Vicious dog calls and moutain lion calls at night. Thats about it.
Active shooters or bank robberies are better served with a more precise weapon firing a single projectile.
Originally Posted By Tim-L:
The 12 gauge is not without its shortcomings, such as limited range, increased recoil, and lower round capacity. |
IMO the biggest shortcoming of the shotgun is the increased civil and criminal liability attached to buckshot ammo via stray pellets. With a handgun or a carbine a hit is a hit. With a shotgun you can very easily have a hit and a few misses from the same round of buckshot fired.
you want a nightmare scenario. 4 cops entering an 8,000 student highschool using 00 buckshot in 870's to take on an active shooter. Every stray pellet that deosnt hit the BG may as well have your checkbook attached.
For those looking for some shotgun training Louis Awerbuck and Rob Haught (SP?) are two that come very highly recommended.
I keep one type of round in my sidesaddles. It cuts down on any confusion that may occur
From the .mil perspective here are some of the "issues" with shotgun training:
The Combat Shotgun in the Brigade Combat TeamI find the shotgun greatly understood. There are many myths that surround it. It has been called a street sweeper. Many people believe that you can just point it in the general direction of your inteneded target, or down a hallway from the hip and hit your intended target.
In my career of Law Enforcement I have been trained in many variations and styles of its implementations, theories on shooting styles and tactical uses. I have seen great improvements in ammunition, especially lately thanks to Federal. The shotgun can be used to hunt small or large game, as a great self defense tool, door breach, launch gas, deliver less lethal rounds, launch flares, etc.
I find the pump shotgun to be the most versatile weapons system available. I base this on the availability of ammunition to shoot through it. There are the traditional birdshot, buckshot, slugs, then we move off into loads like sock rounds, bean bags, distraction devices, bird bombs, muzzle blast dispersion, hard rubber & plastic batons, rubber buckshot & slugs, string ball, thors hammer, dragons breath, flares, CS/CN/OC ferrets, launching, door breaching, and many others. The pump shotgun is more versatile in that it can be used with just about every round, where a semi-auto may not cycle many rounds.
IMHO a perfect versatile all around shotgun will be a Remington 870 or Mossberg 590, equipped with a shell carrier that bolts to the receiver (MesaTactical recommended over others), with an oversized safety, ghost ring or rifle sights, 18"-21" barrel, Surefire 6V light system, short conventional stock, and a good three or single point sling.
CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
SLR15 RiflesTheDefensiveEdge.com
