There are plenty of slow-pistol-powders/fast-rifle-powders you can use to make subs with 147's.

I doubt you will do any BETTER with any of those powders than what you can already do with CFE-BLK.

After all, CFE-BLK was created specifically for running subs in 300 BLK.

Ever try to recreate this load with Shooters World Blackout? I recently picked some up and I'm going to be working up some loads with it.

Wait a minute.....

If you guys are getting 147g subsonics to cycle an AR with decent accuracy using CFE-BLK, is there any reason one couldn't try the same with a 155g Lee 312-155-2R?
https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-312-155-2r.html This has been a great bullet for me over 14.8g of Lil Gun for about 1800fps.

For subs, I'm currently using a 225g NOE over 10.5g of CFE-BLK, but results are less than stellar. If I could go to one bullet and just color code them, that would be great.

Thoughts? (I don't have QuickLoads).

I dont see why you couldnt.  I dont shoot cast bullets so I have no experience with them.  My guns all have adjustable gas blocks.  They are tuned to cycle sub loads, then left alone.  They are a little harsh ejecting supers but nothing Im worried about.  Im about to freeze my ass of and go shoot some .300 blk.
The 17.2 g of h110 gave me 1969 fps thru a 16'' barrel.  I cant find any 147g sub loads in my stash.  I must have shot them up.  Ill load more hopefully today but the wife has some other things planned.

Recommendations on how to begin annealing or just buy a machine?

I love mine!

annealeeze

So I'm sure it's been brought up before but I'd rather not skim through 72 pages. I currently have a 6.75 mcx in 300. 110 supers shoot great, subsonics are another matter. I'm loading a 208gr amax over 11.6 grains of CFE BLK. I'm only chronoing 840 fps and getting keyholing. Any thoughts on how to alleviate this? I'm thinking of trying to run them a little hotter but it is already a compressed load.

That was at the top of my list given the price point. Good to know you like it.

Use a bullet with more bearing surface.

AMAX is unsuitable for low velocity.

Something doesn't seem right here.  I load the 208g Amax with 11.3g CFEBLK and get just a hair over 1000fps out of my 10.5" barrel.  This load works like a champ and I believe is a fairly common and consistent load.  I wish I could find more of those bullets....

Check out dryflash3’s low-budget process.  This is how I anneal chopped cases before forming, and it works very well for a very small investment.

Now if you’re going to be annealing tons of cases on a regular basis, a machine is probably a better idea.

I don’t doubt some people are getting good results with the A-Max 208

But the A-Max was not designed for low-velocity performance.

This is what you seek.

They run about 50 cents apiece.

Attached File

Or go cast lead heavies if you have the inclination to save a few bucks, and you don’t mind all the externalities/opportunity-cost involved with casting.

Interesting, never thought about it like that. I don't doubt that it would work better with a little more length of barrel. But the MCX has a 6.75" with a 1/5 twist. I will look and see if I can get those Lapuas. Maybe even those Berry plated bullets. If like the Amax to work though as I have close to 700 of them.

Might try loading them backwards for subs

147/150 FMJ (loaded backwards) works fine in 30-30

Shot the 300 with poor man’s SUBSONIC 147’s at some distance yesterday. Using 12.9 grains CFE-BLK. Probably 950-1000 fps.

Running SIG ROMEO 5 red dot sight.

Rifle is zeroed for 100 yards with 125-grain Winchester factory supersonic ammunition. Which also matches point of impact of my 115-grain Lehigh solid copper Gucci handload (18.5 grains H-110).

The supers all hit 15” low at 200 yards (remember rifle is zeroed for 100).

Using that same zero, the poor man’s subs (147’s) hit one foot low at 100, and three feet low at 200.

Fired from sling-supported prone position. Pistol-brace buttstock.

Severely bright conditions yesterday. Had to run red dot at MAXIMUM BRIGHTNESS. Dot distorts badly at that setting. Looks more like a diagonal stripe at that setting. So tried to use one end of the stripe as aiming point. Seemed to disperse shots about 5 inches horizontally using that technique at 100 yards.

Group size of the poor man’s subs at 200 could not be reliably measured. Had to hold point of aim on berm rough estimate 3’ high above target. Target was sheet of office paper. 50% of shots hitting sheet of paper with this aiming method. First shot hit 1.5” round sticker in center of paper. LOL.

Shot a similarly-configured 5.56 SBR a little while later. Also a SIG ROMEO 5 optic. Sun was off the targets by then. Able to turn-down brightness of the dot in lower light. Much more precise. Nice tight knotted groups at 100 with the 5.56 gun. Group size at 200 about 6 inches. Significant heat mirage from suppressor affecting sight picture at 200.

5.56 M193 still good for elevation at 200 (using 100-yard zero). 5.56 match ammunition (69-grain w/ 24.0 TAC) about 4” low at 200.

Critical lesson learned yesterday: SIG ROMEO 5 red-dot sight is barely useable for precision shot in bright light at 100-yards or farther. If you need precision aiming capability, a more traditional “scope” would solve this concern. Possibly a different non-magnified red-dot sight, or addition of a magnifier to the SIG ROMEO 5, may allow suitable reticle image at distance in bright light.

Oh, and if you are shooting that dinky little 300 from a sling, don’t let your nose creep up against the charging handle. Especially when shooting supers. That will get your attention.

I can confirm this with Hornady factory loaded 208AMAX and a 8.5” barrel.
At least that was the case when keyholing confused the hell out of me about 5 years ago.
It’s possible they’ve changed the load since then but I ‘think’ it would take a blended powder to make the AMAX  reliable in subs. Small irony cause they’re not known to expand as subs either.

I always wondered why they didn’t put a barrel length restriction on the box. Damn, it’s like their purpose in life to sell premium ammo. They had to know.

So from what I've read on various threads here - it appears that there are 3 good choices for bullets for subsonic SD - Lehigh Defense, Maker 220, and the Nosler 220?  All three appear to be out of stock everywhere.  Are there any other options that offer good expansion / energy transfer?  I would buy the Nosler, then the Maker, then the Lehigh in that order, due to cost.

Any 200-grain class bullet will be fine for 300 Blackout for subsonic self defense.

Only difference between any old 200 grain bullet and the Gucci bullets is the Gucci's will expand. How bad do you really need it to expand? Seems to me if you're pumping 200 grain bullets from a 30 round magazne from an AR inside 50 yards, whatever has to soak it up is going to have to be carried out - whether the bullets expand or not.

The expanding bullets make a bit better exit wound if its something you have to track. In the self-defense situation, I'd just as soon it would run away so I don't have to clean up the mess.

I always thought the Remington 220 flat base would be good to load but they never sold them as components.

Oh don't get me wrong - I agree 100% with your assertion - if I have it I will use it.  I just know that there have been fairly detailed discussions in the past regarding stopping power.  I also know that these being 220 gr with no expansion that they will most likely go through and beyond whatever's behind them.  That's my other concern as well.

Have you ever considered cast lead bullets with powder coat?

I’m a beginner but some companies offer some nice cast bullets as components.
I’ll let the pros’s recommend which companies and which bullet.

If your concern is overpenetration, you don't want to mess with anything heavy and slow.

Go with something that is going to break up immediately on impact. 110-grain varmint bullet is what you seek. But it won't be subsonic.

That's the purpose of the 3 I listed - there is no over penetration via gel tests.  People think that you can't use subs for SD but that's false.  You just need the right round.

@Landshark9025

Are you putting gas checks on these-or just coating?  I would love a cheap 50yd supersonic plinker.

@chadsc

the 150g bullets get gas checks and PC. The process is:

• Cast
• Pop gas checks on while watching TV
• Run through sizer at .313 (I think? Maybe .311) to firmly seat and square check
• PC using Smoke4320's silver/gray powder
• Size to .310

With 14.8g of Lil Gun, a 1:7 barrel and a 1-6x scope, I'm right at 1.25-1.5" at 100 yards.

I think the gas check is important not just from a leading perspective, but also from an accuracy perspective. It's important to have that flat, square base. I found that running them through the sizer gets them fully seated.

Anyone have any success with the bullet feeder on subs?  I cannot get the Mr Bullet feeder to drop the buggers. Any 30 cal bullet over 150g point down wont filp no matter how much I adjust.

I purchased some Sierra tipped gameking 125gr bullets recently - but I can't find anything anywhere that lists any data for them.  They look similar to the tipped match kings, but are not identical.  Apparently Sierra changed the design of these at some point as well, so I don't even know what their new lengths are supposed to be compared to the older ones (the photo they post shows quite a bit of difference between the two variants).  They claim these are good to go for hunting - similar to the Hornady 125 SST (but I've read that the SST are better).

Anyone have any ideas?

Screenshot from the Sierra load data, maybe this will get you started.

Attached File

Thanks - I have the book that shows all of that info - just wasn't sure of the COAL should be the same since I believe the length between the TMK and TGK appear to be different, meaning a different seating depth.

H-110 for velocity

Heck yeah!!!

Dry Flash thanks for the info.  I also wrote Sierra and they stated I should be able to use the load data for the TMK load that is in their manual (that was shared above).  I'll cautiously use that data and work my way up.

18.0 grains of 110 with your 125's should be good.

Don't use shitty thin primers.

Nope - CC41 is my plan.  I need more of those - sadly the prices have gone up.

CCI 41 is fine.

CCI 41 performs in every respect just like a CCI 450.

CCI BR4 too.

Avoid CCI 400's like the plague with hot loads.

Thanks I'll remember that!

Attached File

Is there a good way to search this thread for specific loads?

I am working up a load with 125gr FMJ with H110 in a 7.5" barrel and a 2.1 COAL (loading at the cannelure), 78F, sea level, suppressed.

Right now, with CCI SRM I have this:
Charge Velocity
16.8     1830    
17        1896
17.2     1901
17.4     1894
17.6     1870
17.8     1907

Those numbers seem about right? I feel like I need to go up a little on charge.

Those numbers are about right.

Did you get those numbers from a chronograph?

You won't want to go much past 17.8 grains H-110 with a 125-grain bullet.

At 18.0 grains with a 125, you are going to run out of air-space in the case, and you will begin compressing the powder.

You wan't to piss-off some H-110?... Try running a compressed charge of it. It will get REAL MAD just all the sudden.

Don't challenge H-110.  Once H-110 gets mad, the shooter usually loses.

Thanks for the tip. I'm somewhat familiar with the subsonic powders in this cartridge but supers are new territory.

I don't plan to use this round often, so I'll find the sweet spot in the listed charges. Got the data from my Chrono at around 5'.

Thanks!

How accurate do you think Gordon's is for this?  I modeled the similar load we were talking about a few posts up and with the COAL of 2.25 it was saying 18.3" was the last safest before getting into dangerous territory.

I have around a thousand 150 grain .308 bullets.  I would like to try these poor man’s 150 subsonic loads with CFEBLK.  Looks like I can try the 13.3 load.  Is the brass full enough with this load?  Do I need any type of packing material?  I’ve never loaded below recommended starting loads before.  Jus want to make sure I’m doing it as safe as possible.

Thanks!

With 13.3 grains of CFE BLK, your cases will be “full enough.”  It’s not like you’re using a tiny fraction of the normal load.  Hodgdon’s recommended starting load is 18.8 grains, with the max being 20.5 - a compressed load.  You’ll have some empty space, but it won’t be a problem.

I’ve shot a bunch of them. No problems.

When you have extra airspace, you will get more variation in velocity. So some will be cracking at 13.3, and some won’t.

I’ve reduced my 150/CFE-BLK load to 12.7 grains to reduce the unwanted cracking.

Thanks!  I should be able to get out this weekend to try this.

Does anyone have good subsonic load data for the Berry's 200 grain plated bullets? I see lots of load data for 220 and 208 grain projectiles, but not much for 200.  
https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/300-aac-blkout-309-200gr-sp

This would be for a 5.5inch SIG Rattler with a SIG 7.62Ti direct thread can so I am very worried about baffle strikes and making sure the rounds are properly stabilized. I'm not sure what sort of variables that short of a barrel would introduce, especially in regards to bullet stability. My understanding is that it features a 1 in 5 inch twist but only roughly 3 inches of rifled tube due to the chamber taking up most of the space.
I'm new to reloading but I've picked up some CCI #400 primers, and am still searching for powder. It seems as if Hodgdon CFE BLK or Accurate 1680 is preferred for most subsonic loads. Proper seating depth also seems somewhat confusing as my Hornaday overall length gauge tool is giving me some high cartridge overall length (COL) readings. Although I'm not sure how important it is to try to match the seating depth to the lands and groves of the barrel especially on a 5.5inch gun.

Thanks!

Try 10-11 gr cfe black. Start at max length 2.260 set it back to 2.240 if needed for feeding.  Try all ammo without the can on and check for key holing by shooting into cardboard and looking for perfect circles.  You shouldnt have any problems with1/5 twist and 7''barrel length.  They are made for heavy subs.